Advice appreciated here please (other than calling me a numpty!): I use a stud service contract which stipulates payment in two stages, the first on mating (25% of fee) and the second (75%) on confirmation of the bitch being in whelp, and/or no later than 45 days after mating. The first stage was paid as required. Since then I have the bitch's owner promise payment on three different dates over the last three weeks and none of them have been honoured. The bitch is due to whelp in 10-12 days' time. I am particularly annoyed because I made the arrangement as easy as I could for the breeder, taking the dog down to her on three occasions (bitch was not ready on the first day). This is now impacting on my own plans to get my bitch mated since I will be taking her abroad in 6-8 weeks and will have major expenses sorting her pet passport, travel, kenneling for my other dogs, etc. I realise the ultimate sanction is to withhold approval for registration of the litter, at least until payment in full is received, but I resent being pushed down that route.

>I realise the ultimate sanction is to withhold approval for registration of the litter, at least until payment in full is received, but I resent being pushed down that route.

This really is the only thing you can do other than going to law, but be aware that with on-line registration they may register them anyway, and occasionally the letter to the stud dog owner has been known not to arrive, so keep an eye on things and check with the Kennel club to see if a litter registration is pending.

One way to know is to check MYKC for the list of progeny of your dog, as once registered they will appear under his details.

My Stud Contract stated that less than 2 puppies doesn't constitute 'a litter' and as such a free repeat mating would be given.   Could be that this breeder is waiting on how many puppies she actually gets before paying you the balance rather than paying you the balance just on confirmation of the bitch being in whelp which was presumably done by a scan which only means the bitch had puppies at the time of the scan.   Not that she'd carry to term.

I don't like a Stud Contract that says this.   And actually normally speaking with a proven stud dog, I'd want the stud fee up front, at the time of the completion of the service.   As I didn't allow my males to be used on bitches I knew nothing about (owners) unless I approved of the bitch and felt the owner was doing things the right way, most of my studs were done on a friendly basis, and again most people would pay me up front.   If I had an unproven male somebody (a colleague) was interested in using, I'd not take a fee until a litter (more than 2 puppies) was on the ground.   Such things should be flexible, to some extent.

And you are right - at the end of the day you can refuse to sign the Litter Application unless you have the full stud fee in your hands.

The contract I use is explicit about both stud and bitch owner requirements. I will be amending it so that the fee is paid at the time of stud service, which is standard in our breed--I only offered these relaxed terms as a one-off to help another breeder out.

The sire is a proven stud and in fact was used by the same breeder on the dam of this bitch last year, which is why I didn't consider there would be any issue about terms. This bitch was scanned 3 weeks ago and is expecting a litter of at least 5. I know that doesn't necessarily mean she will have 5, or more, or any live pups, but the outcome is unlikely to be the stud's fault; and in the worst case scenario, she would be entitled to a repeat mating.

Brainless, My KC has been a great source of information for me and I constantly refer other people to it. I always keep a watch for litters sired by my dogs and have noticed in the past that the registration is online before I receive the KC's letter :-)

In my breed the norm is payment after a litter is on the ground, and often a stud owner will wait until a pup has been sold, especially if things did not go smoothly and the bitch owner has had a lot of unforeseen expenses.

Could it simply be that the breeder is a little strapped for cash and awaiting husband's pay day etc?  it may not be worth souring relations with the breeder over a delay.

Is the stud fee in the breed very high?
As it seems you have a relationship with them already,have you asked them direct if they are having money issues as are not paying when they said they would?
I would also tell them your plans could really do with the agreed money from them!

Warn them you will refuse to agree to their pups  registration until you are paid in full.
Inform the KC that may be a problem and to put a flag on the bitchs details.

Noora, the stud fee in this breed is roughly 60-100% of the price of a puppy, and we are in the middle of that range. The breeder has been made aware from the beginning of my plans and has been notified in writing of the urgency. Being self employed I am acutely aware of cashflow issues and entirely sympathetic to anyone going through hard times, but without going into details let's just say that FB posts make it very plain that her lifestyle choices don't square with being hard up--quite the opposite, so either way there are some pretty worrying issues, not least for the future of the litter. I'm not someone who goes looking for things to worry over, but I don't have a good feeling about this.

Thanks tooolz, good idea

>This bitch was scanned 3 weeks ago and is expecting a litter of at least 5. I know that doesn't necessarily mean she will have 5, or more, or any live pups, but the outcome is unlikely to be the stud's fault; and in the worst case scenario, she would be entitled to a repeat mating

I have always said that a stud fee is payable for the use of the stud, and, as long as he does his job then the fee is due.
Strictly speaking, the fee isn't for a certain amount of pups, it's for a successful mating.

Ok, yes, we have all been more than fair when necessary.  I have a breed that has very small litters, and someone used my boy and had one bitch pup that died soon after the birth.  I naturally offered a free service the following year, as I know that I would be heartbroken if it happened to me.

I think JAY15 needs to make sure that the full fee is paid at the time of service.  A shame, but you would be daft to get caught again.

>This bitch was scanned 3 weeks ago and is expecting a litter of at least 5. I know that doesn't necessarily mean she will have 5, or more, or any live pups, but the outcome is unlikely to be the stud's fault; and in the worst case scenario, she would be entitled to a repeat mating

I have always said that a stud fee is payable for the use of the stud, and, as long as he does his job then the fee is due.
Strictly speaking, the fee isn't for a certain amount of pups, it's for a successful mating.

Ok, yes, we have all been more than fair when necessary.  I have a breed that has very small litters, and someone used my boy and had one bitch pup that died soon after the birth.  I naturally offered a free service the following year, as I know that I would be heartbroken if it happened to me.

I think JAY15 needs to make sure that the full fee is paid at the time of service.  A shame, but you would be daft to get caught again.

I have always said that a stud fee is payable for the use of the stud, and, as long as he does his job then the fee is due.
Strictly speaking, the fee isn't for a certain amount of pups, it's for a successful mating.

Ok, yes, we have all been more than fair when necessary.  I have a breed that has very small litters, and someone used my boy and had one bitch pup that died soon after the birth.  I naturally offered a free service the following year, as I know that I would be heartbroken if it happened to me.

I think JAY15 needs to make sure that the full fee is paid at the time of service.  A shame, but you would be daft to get caught again.

JeanSW - totally agree.

I think the amount of stud fee does make a difference& what is the norm in the breed.
In my breed it is around £1200, which in all honesty I would not be happy to pay at the time of the service (breed also has quite a lot of fertility issues, sperm quality going down with age and bitches missing). It is a lot of money to be sitting on somebody else's account for 6 months if there are no puppies. If bitch misses many might wish to try with a different girl if they have one that they hope to have pups from (with probably a different stud being the most suitable), making it £2400 you would have paid out in stud fees alone (+travel+possible prog testing etc) and possibly still have no litter or might have one on the way and to then have spare if things go wrong...

Luckily in my breed, I don't think anybody asks for full fee at the time of the mating :-).

JAY15, I would contact the bitch owner(email, facebook, text, call, signed letter so they sure will get the message one way or another!) and say you are contacting KC to put a note on bitches details about this and they will not be able to register the pups till full payment has been received.
I would say as it is that this is making me feel very bad about the whole situation and tell them to get in touch straight away to discuss&pay as I really would prefer not to go down that line.
If no contact I would then contact KC  and make sure they can not register online.
Just the fact KC will be notified might be enough to make them take notice and pay up what they should have a while ago!

This might not necessarily be true. I made it quite clear I would be witholding registration signature, but the litter of pups my dispute is over were sold anyway and at a rock bottom price, which just adds insult to injury. Please make sure your intentions are open and clear or you may well find yourself in my situation and facing the start of legal proceedings. I hope you have better luck than me.

I don't think the KC will halt registration due to unpaid stud fee, after all that is a private matter and nothing to do with them, they won't get involved. As long as the details are correct, said stud dog used, they will register them. The only way is for the stud dog owner to put endorsements back on her own stud dog, progeny not for registration, then no one can register him as the sire. And I know this can be done because it happened to me.

I agree with Missie's post except for the third sentence which I believe should read...... " The only way is for the stud dog owner to put endorsements back on her own stud dog, progeny not for registration, then no one can register him as the sire online"

I'm not replying to anyone in particular but some of the facts given on this thread are incorrect. If the KC Registration rules are read carefully stud dog owners basically have no rights. If a paper copy of the Litter Registration form is signed by the stud dog owner it is only to acknowledge that the mating took place. This will then make the registration process straight forward.

An online registration of a litter should not go through if there is an Endorsement on the sire of the litter. However it is unlikely to stop the KC registering the litter if they deem the sire claimed by the breeder did actually sire the litter. Any disagreement between parties over payment is a private matter. Also the Registration rules allow the KC to remove any Endorsement to register a litter should they wish to.

>I think the amount of stud fee does make a difference& what is the norm in the breed.

I charge £200 stud fee.  Price of pup is usually around £750.

They will refuse to lift the endorsement on the sire, it's her dog and she hasn't agreed to it, and it will stop online KC registration. Agreed, any disagreement between parties over payment is not their concern, but they won't interfere and lift endorsement in this case unless there is a paper copy, or the stud owner writes and tells them its ok (which in this case will defeat the object) If there is a contract which states the stud dog was used to sire the litter, then registration will (should) be allowed.

Put another way, If a pup is sold with endorsements and the breeder refuses to lift them, then the KC might override and lift them if no real (legal or otherwise) reason not to. But a dog endorsed by the owner and/or breeder, whether used at stud or not,  has a right to keep the endorsements on and the KC can not remove them or register a litter without signed paper proof of mating

"But a dog endorsed by the owner and/or breeder, whether used at stud or not,  has a right to keep the endorsements on and the KC can not remove them or register a litter without signed paper proof of mating"

As a stud dog owner I can only speak from my own dealings with the KC and can definitely say the above was not my experience.

As someone who used a stud dog without endorsements at the time of mating,  that were then put on after the whelp, I can definitely say this was my experience. Put on over a fee dispute, KC unable to remove as the owner had placed them.

Well, thanks for all the advice :-) I will certainly be asking for the full fee at the time of mating in future--and adding travel expenses if I am taking the dog to the bitch, as happened here.

Stud fees in this breed are anywhere from £500-1000, but usually around the middle of that. Puppies are usually around £875 now.

Since writing the breeder has come up with a contribution toward the outstanding balance, but I've no intention of writing off the balance. I don't sign a litter registration form until after they are whelped, and in this case not until the rest of the stud fee is paid. Lesson learned! Thanks again for all your responses--for some reason I no longer get notifications through from CD, otherwise I'd have thanked you before now :-)

Full fee up front, you're kidding me right? Goodness I'd never pay out that, half maybe but not full.. Sorry while you maybe in a situation now I'd be holding back the signed paperwork until full fee paid at agreed time...
Not everyone is like this and if you don't trust the breeder then I'd not be allowing my dog be used on their bitch

Full fee up front, you're kidding me right?

Full fee at time of mating is how it is always done in my breed.

What happens if no pups? Do you refund the full amount if they don't want to return?

Not unless that's what's been agreed in advance. A stud fee is for a mating.

Full fee at time of mating in my breed - even amongst friends.  :)

If no pups, another mating is usually (but not obligatory) offered, sometime for the same bitch only, sometimes for any bitch.  If owner doesn't wish to use the same or another dog in the kennel then the stud fee is lost.  I've never been that unlucky but know many others who have.

"Full fee at time of mating is how it is always done in my breed"

Ditto :)

>for some reason I no longer get notifications through from CD, otherwise I'd have thanked you before now :-)

I don't get notifications either now.  I hate it because, like you, I would like to know if an answer is required.  Can we request that the facility be reinstated?

Full free up front normal in my breed too, and generally a free return if no puppies, though this should always be checked.

I would like to know if an answer is required.  Can we request that the facility be reinstated?

Definitely!!!! I thought it was something I had or hadn't done...Admin, can we have our notification back pleeeeease

Some people in the breed I have dealt with wait until pups are born and have been reasonable to say no pups no fee and no expectation of using the dog in the future. Some breeders ask for full fee up front with offer of free mating next time if she misses and then that is it.
I had this once when I knew it was the last chance for one of mine due to age so free mating next time not an option but spoke to a breeder who refused to budge on the issue so needless to say I did not use that particular dog.
There does seem to be a great variation but it is clear that some see it as payment for the service.

Some people in the breed I have dealt with wait until pups are born and have been reasonable to say no pups no fee and no expectation of using the dog in the future. Some breeders ask for full fee up front with offer of free mating next time if she misses and then that is it.
I had this once when I knew it was the last chance for one of mine due to age so free mating next time not an option but spoke to a breeder who refused to budge on the issue so needless to say I did not use that particular dog.
There does seem to be a great variation but it is clear that some see it as payment for the service.

>I had this once when I knew it was the last chance for one of mine due to age so free mating next time not an option but spoke to a breeder who refused to budge on the issue so needless to say I did not use that particular dog.

But surely you go into any mating with the expectation of it being successful. If you had determined that a particular dog was the best match for your girl then the possibility of a repeat mating should not affect that suitability. It seems like you are wanting to pay the stud fee for 2 seasons worth of matings when surely it should only be for for one? and if your bitch was nearing the end of her reproductive life then surely it could be just as likely to be her that was the reason for any mating not being successful rather than the dog. A bit unfair to make the dogs owner pay for failings on your bitches part. Mind you I am sure the stud himself wouldnt have minded obliging :)

I would certainly ask for the balance to be paid prior to pups being born or she can register them online immediately and you can't do anything about it as far as I'm aware.  Good and bad points for online services...

suejaw - you must be joking!  You generally have the option to return but if your bitch has missed once to that dog, could it happen again?  During my 14 years of breeding I have lost total stud fees twice - once on my very first mating, older ladt owned the stud and bitch wasn't allowed to see him!  No wonder it didn't work.  I did take her back the following season as it was a lot of money to lose and again no pups.  Changed stud following season and success!
More recently I paid a full fee - not allowed to hold my bitch had to observe from a distance while they did the handling.  Took her twice and it appeared we had matings but no pups.  He was a proven dog and she had previously had a litter.  Didn't take her back as was worried she wouldn't take again + they moved 100's of miles away!
Hubby now won't let me use a stud dog where full stud fee has to be paid up front... 

This is where I think the non-refundable handling fee (usually around £100-150), paid at the time of mating, is fairer all round. Once pups have arrived a fee per live pup is payable or the balance of the agreed stud fee. If the bitch misses it's a lot less money to lose and you don't feel obliged to go back to the same dog.

This is by far the better way - in my opinion...

A handling fee or part stud fee at the time of mating is fine and then when pups on the ground the remainder is fairer all round.
Even in my breeds each person is different in how they operate the stud fee and the cost. Some want up front, some ask for half and half and some say no fee until pups on the ground..

I don't think the KC will halt registration due to unpaid stud fee, after all that is a private matter and nothing to do with them, they won't get involved. As long as the details are correct, said stud dog used, they will register them.

Unless things have changed, the owner of the Stud Dog has to sign the litter application form.   That is their protection.    Once that form has been signed by both parties, then the KC will register the litter.    Can the owner of the Stud Dog put endorsements on puppies that were only sired by their dog?    I thought that only the owner of the b itch/litter could do that!!!?    Any Stud Dog owner has the right to put restrictions on who uses their dog "to approved bitches only" !!!

Unless things have changed, the owner of the Stud Dog has to sign the litter application form.   That is their protection.    Once that form has been signed by both parties, then the KC will register the litter.

As you now normally register online, it doesn't apply in the same way. I believe the stud dog owner is contacted to say pups have been registered to check they have no objection and that this is why you should have the form signed as a back up/proof. But I have a feeling it doesn't always happen that they check.

This is where I think the non-refundable handling fee (usually around £100-150), paid at the time of mating, is fairer all round.

Just so it is clear, that was exactly what I stipulated in the contract: 25% of fee to be paid at the time of mating and the balance on confirmation of the bitch in whelp (eg by ultrasound) and by NO LATER than day 45. I do offer a  return if the mating is unsuccessful. This bitch was confirmed in whelp over 3 weeks ago and is due to whelp next week.

>This is where I think the non-refundable handling fee (usually around £100-150), paid at the time of mating, is fairer all round.

But this case shows exactly why that doesnt always work. Although you should trust a bitches owner to pay the balance as this case shows it is easier said than done. Once their bitch is pregnant they dont have to pay and if the KC wont get involved in disputes then the bitches owner can register the pups and not pay the  balance of hte stud fee. . And even if the puppies cant be registered the bitches owner is quite likely to be able to sell pups to pet owners who arent interested in registrations so can still make money from the litter..

Ditto here Ells-Bells !

Jay15, I don't have an issue with the way you've done things I was picking up on what you plan to do in the future. Did you sign the KC form at time of mating? The owner of the stud did when I went however the KC number was witheld, not sue if on purpose or not, you need this to register. I would say no signing to take place until full fee paid and then pups can be registered.

A lot of this is all based on trust though and why would you think otherwise if this breeder has used your boy before and not had any issues. Have you had any recent contact from them? I would call them and find out if any problems, is there a chance that she has lost the litter? I would play this nicely nicely for now and maybe send an email so you do have proof of this too.

As you can see different breeds and different people have veried views of what is acceptable to them or not, I was just putting that a full fee up front was a lot, if no pups then a full refund would be in order or majority of a refund if they didn't wish to return. I personally wouldn't pay a full fee up front even to a good friend.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">There does seem to be a great variation but it is clear that some see it as payment for the service.

I do think that when stud fees are only low, or less than the price of a puppy, then that attitude is fine, but in breeds like my won where the fee is the price of a puppy then I really think the service is for the litter, after al how can anywhere between £500  to over £1000 be purely for the stud and stud owners time???

In the time I have been in my breed (over 20 years) stud fee has nearly always been after a litter was on the ground, though I always went with the fee to pay.

I owned an imported stud in partnership, and in this case we did request a £50 service charge, and balance to price of a puppy after the litter was born.  This was to cover the time and trouble of the person who the dog lived with, after all the other 3 owners were not inconvenienced, so it seemed fair.

In the end it is wise to ascertain the the stud terms fully in advance.

>This is where I think the non-refundable handling fee (usually around £100-150), paid at the time of mating, is fairer all round.

Agree.  Certainly most common abroad.


As you now normally register online, it doesn't apply in the same way. I believe the stud dog owner is contacted to say pups have been registered to check they have no objection and that this is why you should have the form signed as a back up/proof. But I have a feeling it doesn't always happen that they check.

Thanks for the update (it's been a while since we had litters now) but it just goes to show the old saying 'if it ain't broke, why fix it' applies.   Change isn't always progress eh.

Re my post, all of the stud dogs I have used the owners  have said no pups, no fee and more recent litters - no commitment to using that dog next time. This is all people that know us well. The lady who wanted me to have a free mating next time and charged full puppy stud fee ( also something I have not had to pay ) knowing the age of my bitch I have known particularly well and has one of my dogs. It just surprised me and my OH also thinks full puppy price for a stud fee without knowing if pups were on the ground excessive and would raise objections. I think we have been very lucky with the generosity of some people in our breed and have been very grateful for that.