Hi, Could someone with experience of owning a stud with several bitches please offer some advice. I am a hobby breeder with 4 pug bitches, our bitches live indoors and are crated over night downstairs. We are looking into getting a male dog to service our bitches as we have had problems with stud dogs we have used before.  We are doing lots of research into this and do not want to get a male unless we are absolutely sure it is the right thing to do. There is someone with the pugs all day everyday so when a bitch is in a season that she can't be mated we can ensure separation. The main thing I would like to know is if it will cause fighting between the bitches or dog and will the bitches leave the dog out or welcome him. Many thanks in advance.

I have imported and owned a stud dog in partnership (he did stay with me at times) and used him on two of my bitches.

Basically what use (from a breeding point of view) would a male be to you after he had mated one bitch or even all of them (which would be daft as surely you wouldn't want to put all your eggs in one basket).  You would seriously restrict your future breeding plans.

You would not even know if he would be a good match or any of them until eh is adult, and then you have the nuisance of keeping him away from the in season girls at other times.

I don't know what issues you have had with outside stud dogs, but those should be minimised with thorough research (che4ckign health and quality of previous offspring and relatives) and making clear cut agreements regarding stud terms.

For the price of a stud fee, assuming your bitches are of decent quality you can have the use of the top stud dogs anywhere in the country or the world for that matter.

It has nothing to do with financial matters, it is more for my bitches' welfare and our peace of mind. Obviously we want to produce top quality puppies, and all 4 bitches have outstanding pedigree's and we would ensure the new male had an excellent one too, we would also check on the inbreeding coefficient % and have all the advised health checks carried out.

In 35+ years of breeding pedigree dogs, rather successfully I may add, I've NEVER been fortunate to own EXACTLY the RIGHT dog for my bitch at that stage in her life.

The main thing I would like to know is if it will cause fighting between the bitches or dog and will the bitches leave the dog out or welcome him. Many thanks in advance.

Man made packs can go either way, you can get the balance right with a strong alpha (do you have one?) whom the other bitches will respect and whom a dog will respect also, bonding well with other pack members causing no rift at all, or you can have all out war from bitches attacking one another and even killing each others pups given the chance, no one can predict unless you are judging characters from the off when putting a pack together, and even then you can still get surprised. They may all live in harmony, they may not? It just isn't something anyone can really predict, especially not knowing your pack.

A male dog living with 4 un-neutered females will be hard going for him, especially as bitches may well synch their seasons, the dog will be extremely stressed they often howl, pace without sleep and do not eat whilst a bitch is in season at her peak times, imagine if he were acceptable to mate with one bitch, and then the other 3 come in weeks apart, the poor boy will be exhausted, separating will stop them mating (remembering that dogs and bitches turn into houdini at this time too) but it won't stop the stress and knowing that behind a wall is a bitch in season, he may need to be housed elsewhere when others are in season.

I agree with Brainless that surely it would be easier to source a good stud dog.

But, if you are set on finding a male pup of good standing, and are lucky enough when reaching adulthood that he will be a good match genetically for some of your bitches, it will still have to be a risk as to how the pack will integrate with entire dogs and bitches, it isn't anything any of us can predict........ it would have to be your gamble. :-)

Inbreeding and pedigrees are just small parts of choosing a stud dog -you chose the dog to compliment the bitch, to improve on her faults etc. Surely it's very unlikely you have 4 bitches all needing the exact same dog? I'd think it would almost be more likely to win the lottery. :) And then like Brainless says, once he has mated them all, then you can't use him again and presumably you will then have 4 new bitches as I am assuming you are breeding to get a good pup to keep from each for showing. (Not being a breed where working will come into it.)

Of course it can be done to have an entire male dog with bitches, but it can be very hard work and at times unfair on the dog as well. The dog will usually not want to eat when there is a bitch in season (the experienced dog only for a few days when the in season bitch is at the height of her season, the inexperienced all way through), may whine and cry and bark and sometimes even howl, and that's bad enough for one season, but when you may end up with four following each other if you are unlucky, then that dog needs a lot of extra attention etc. I recently had this exact scenario -no less than four bitches in season one following another, so the poor male dog had 12 weeks of bitches in season. Oh and you have to expect a lot of leg cocking indoors, that's more or less inevitable.

Thought I could hack it and have the boy I kept from a litter of just 4 boys ( now 11 ). I realised it was not for me when one of my girls came in season and her was neutered. My situation may be different as they run as a pack together. I never intended to use him on any of my girls but  hoped to prove him in the ring.  That didn't happen because he became ring shy.
Anyway I can say it is not easy to live with entire males and bitches together and not necessarily fair on any of them. Not for me.

One thing that no-one seems to have touched on, but I have seen on several occasions, is that the dog pup grows up with the bitches, all is harmonious.  But when the time comes, he will not mate with them, or they won't allow him to mate with them.

Quite a lot of outlay and expense, and considerable inconvenience keeping them apart until the right time for puppies, then it all goes down the pan,  and by the time you find he won't do the job, it's too late to find another suitable stud dog.

We have a male used for stud and 2bitches one due to have pups soon but different breed to him he cried when she was inseason it drove me insane and it must of been horrible for him the other girl he lives with is spayed they are kenneled together our small breed bitch lives in but they all play together everyday ....when we had more girls same breed as him it was a nightmare as we didnt always use him on our girls...he didnt eat from aweek before a season started and wouldnt eat for weeks so imagen if u get a boy and he does this with 4 girls :( plus you could have him peeing every where the girls are....

I have kept entire males, stud dogs with entire bitches and believe me, it's no picnic.   It involved not only crates, but leaping over barriers (us) for 3+ weeks and even with separation, the males always knew the situation, some coping with it better than others.

I don't know what problems you've had with outside stud dogs, but you should realise that once you have bought in a male, and used him on your own bitches, that's it - you can't used him again (other than repeat mating of course) and he will just become a passenger.  

I'd investigate other outside stud dogs rather than buying in your own although if you show him and he's successful in the ring you may find others may ask to use him (with all that goes with that!!) and at least recoup some of your outlay in buying him.   Doesn't always work out like that and for sure, any stud dog should be used wisely - mine were only ever 'to approved bitches only' and fact is I probably turned away more enquiries than accepted.   There were some bitches I didn't want my lines involved with (these were stud dogs we'd bred ourselves).    And any male you buy in will have to be 'right' for the bitches you currently have both on paper (pedigree) and physically.

We never had fighting between the girls and our males, but had to keep an eye on the situation with the boys!!   Bitches in season or not.

Bottom line - unless you are lucky enough to have bred an excellent male, and decide to keep him, perhaps intending to use him on one of your own bitches a few generations on, buying in a male isn't worth doing especially when once used on your current females, he can't be used again within your kennel other than for repeat matings (which for me, is pointless).

Will you be showing him at all? I know a lot of breeders who have a male or two so they always have something to show and while they might not use him on their bitches other people do use them.
I think if you have a set up which allows for separation when is needed then why not go for it?

My boy used to howl and refuse to eat when the bitch was in season, very upsetting and annoying for us all! Where possible I had a friend take him for a couple of weeks but it wasn't always possible. My OH had to take him to the office so he could eat his food, otherwise he either refused or was sick after eating as he was so worked up. :-(

I have 3 entire dogs, one regularly used at stud, and a bitch who I hope will be my foundation bitch later this year. I will NOT be using my boy on her and am planning a trip of 2000+ miles (yes, that is the right number of zeros :-) to get her to the dog I want. I think that sums up for me how useful it is to keep a stud for your own bitches' use.

I have medium sized gundogs and when my bitch comes into season it can be stressful all round for 2-3 days, but I must say they are pretty good on the whole. It takes a fair bit of management to keep them safely separate and quiet(ish), probably far more effort than most people would want to make.

I have three adult dogs and three adult bitches, two of which are spayed.  I have never had a problem having a "pack", maybe I have just been lucky. 

I am at home all day with them, and I am able to put the bitch in a kennel or shut the dogs out when I am out.  Two of the dogs have been used for matings, but only a couple of times, and only once on my own bitch, I don't know if this has made a difference.  Apart from a bit of teeth chattering from the males when the bitch is in season they are no different.

I am guessing the original poster is looking to buy a stud dog and literally repeat the same mating year in, year out with their 4 bitches. I don't imagine conformation pluses & minuses, suitability (Other than that they are the same breed) and any notion to show has been thought about.  Put in as much red as you can in the pedigree and Bob's your uncle.

Probably if they keep any daughters from any of the litters, dog no.1 will be neutered and then a new dog bought in to cover all the bitches again......

Oh how depressing if true.

I suppose after 16 litters the dogs would certainly have paid for himself and his keep, saving on stud fees.

It sounds more like basic reproduction rather than 'breeding'.

It's a little cottage industry.

I too question the reasoning behind the breeding in this instance. It certainly sounds like a case of quantity over quality. I would also question if the local council would look at this as "Hobby" breeding or class it as a business if 4 breeding bitches are kept and bred each year with the express purpose of being sold. The taxman too may be interested to know how much money is being made. Pug puppies are not hard to find these days, but well bred ones are. No reason really to produce 4 litters all sired by the same Father, and to repeat the matings more than once. It is just producing puppies and not widening the gene pool at all.
Aileen

I think the OP ran off long ago, as soon as it became apparent we didn't all shout "Yes yes yes, go out and buy a stud dog to mate all your bitches to!".....

Yep only 2 posts and registered on 11th May 2014.  They will be off moaning about those snooty people on champs.

If you buy a male he will more than likely not live up to expectations and probably not even mate your girls. Much easier than taking on a passenger as some like to call them, to select a perfect stud. When looking for a pug health tests are no1 priority then type and temper then pedigree. Breed to the best...

>Yep only 2 posts and registered on 11th May 2014.  They will be off moaning about those snooty people on champs.

Or, they could still be reading the thread but are to afraid to open their mouth again! :)

Original post:

>Hi, Could someone with experience of owning a stud with several bitches please offer some advice. I am a hobby breeder with 4 pug bitches, our bitches live indoors and are crated over night downstairs. We are looking into getting a male dog to service our bitches as we have had problems with stud dogs we have used before. We are doing lots of research into this and do not want to get a male unless we are absolutely sure it is the right thing to do. There is someone with the pugs all day everyday so when a bitch is in a season that she can't be mated we can ensure separation. The main thing I would like to know is if it will cause fighting between the bitches or dog and will the bitches leave the dog out or welcome him. Many thanks in advance.

Well I rather think the advice was given, later speculation and comments as to motivation have only appeared due to the lack of feedback, and 'deathly silence'.

>later speculation and comments as to motivation have only appeared due to the lack of feedback, and 'deathly silence'.

Not everyone can afford to sit reading this forum 24 hours a day. Many people dip in and out, as time allows. Just because someone does not respond does not mean that they have 'disappeared with their tail between their legs', although at times no one would blame them if they did! There could be any number of reasons why the member has not continued with follow-on posts or questions. My point is that people are less likely to join in when everyone starts throwing bricks at them.

Admin just trying to clarify here,

What exactly is the point of this forum now?

Are we not supposed to comment regarding irresponsible breeding? 

There are more than enough fluffy websites encouraging the production of yet more badly bred dogs and dogs of breeds that are so over produced that the rescues are heaving with them.

What I'm seeing increasingly is that responsible breeders are reducing the numbers of litters they breed, yet irresponsible breeding is going through the roof!    These 'breeders' don't need any encouragement, their only motivation is money and as long as they get that, they don't care about what they produce.

If we aren't supposed to be pointing that out, then there is no place for any of the responsible breeders on this forum.

Hear hear Dill :)

I'll highlight a different bit of the original post Admin..

>I am a hobby breeder with 4 pug bitches, our bitches live indoors and are crated over night downstairs. We are looking into getting a male dog to service our bitches

With the best will in the world that is not a responsible breeder. Even if the lines matched and the dogs complemented each other perfectly why would you mate the same dog to all 4 bitches? A responsible breeder just wouldn't.

>What exactly is the point of this forum now?

What it has always been - education - help, advice and support.

>Are we not supposed to comment regarding irresponsible breeding?

Of course you may comment Dill. However, what is not good is the assumption that everyone but 'the regular members of this forum' are irresponsible breeders!

> If we aren't supposed to be pointing that out, then there is no place for any of the responsible breeders on this forum.

No one is stopping you pointing anything out Dill. What I am asking you to do is think before you type. Not everyone who comes here is as knowledgeable as some of you and that is the reason they have arrived here at our forum in the first place - they are looking for answers!

You all started somewhere and you all learnt your trade by one means or another. Yet, some of you can't help but put-the-boot-in or jump to (at times the wrong) conclusions when someone does ask a question or does not respond when you think they should.  Rather than scare people away or whip up assumptions about their "motives", why not answer the questions to the best of your ability and here's the crux - don't assume the worst of everyone.

EVERYONE is welcome here. We have educated people on the rights and wrongs of dog breeding (and many other subjects) for many years now and we have also helped to make people better breeders and owners. We can do all that without the petty comments and speculation about their 'motives'. Not everyone is a terrible owner or breeder. They may not all be as knowledgeable as 'we', but hey .. what a dull world it would be if we were all perfect :)

>I am a hobby breeder with 4 pug bitches, our bitches live indoors and are crated over night downstairs. We are looking into getting a male dog to service our bitches

>>With the best will in the world that is not a responsible breeder.A responsible breeder just wouldn't.

Playing devils advocate here :)

So only irresponsible breeders keep a number of bitches AND their own stud dogs?

Millions of people, including so called 'responsible' breeders cage their dogs and keep their own stud dogs.

The question was "The main thing I would like to know is if it will cause fighting between the bitches or dog?".

That hardly sounds like someone whom is unconcerned for the welfare of their dogs? Surely the fact that they have taken the trouble to come here and ASK means that they are trying to do the right thing. You have a prime opportunity to educate. Don't waste it :)

Sweet :)

So only irresponsible breeders keep a number of bitches AND their own stud dogs?


No, what was said was that only irresponsible breeders mate ALL their bitches to the same dog.

You all started somewhere and you all learnt your trade by one means or another

And there it is, in a nutshell.

For most of the knowledgeable people on here, breeding dogs is a HOBBY,  part of the showing and keeping of a particular breed as a HOBBY. 

However for far too many people today, it is just that, a trade, a way to make quick money with little outlay.

> However for far too many people today, it is just that, a trade, a way to make quick money with little outlay.

And one of the ways to do that is to keep several bitches and have just one stud dog they are all mated to.

>And one of the ways to do that is to keep several bitches and have just one stud dog they are all mated to.

Or, like me, have a really lovely stud dog who I use to let me know exactly the right time to have one of my bitches mated.  He's never let me down once bless him.  :-)

But the poor little s*d then watches me go out the door with said bitch after phoning the stud dog owner that I am using.

>So only irresponsible breeders keep a number of bitches AND their own stud dogs?

As Goldmali has already pointed out, that's not what I said. Irresponsible breeders though do mate all their bitches to one dog that they also own, probably again and again.

You seem to think we can teach them a trade, but really breeding should be secondary to showing or working your dog. I don't think anyone should 'just start breeding' any breed, just get 4 bitches and a dog and churn out puppies. Breeding should only come after spending time showing or working your dog, then if you think you have a good enough bitch to add to the genepool start finding the right dog, with a view to having a litter that are even better than their dam.

> The question was "The main thing I would like to know is if it will cause fighting between the bitches or dog?".
>
> That hardly sounds like someone whom is unconcerned for the welfare of their dogs? Surely the fact that they have taken the trouble to come here and ASK means that they are trying to do the right thing. You have a prime opportunity to educate.

The right thing is probably not to breed at all from any of their bitches ;-) I'm making an assumption here that the OP doesn't show, it's a reasonable assumption as anyone who does show would not consider it at all likely that one dog would suit all their bitches.

Responsible breeding isn't just about caring for your own dogs, it's about caring for the breed as a whole.

Well said all.  The change in attitude on here is exactly why I stopped posting on the breeding board!  I'm not prepared to help puppy producers and backyard breeders "learn their trade"!!  :(

I was shocked but not surprised by this comment.
You all started somewhere and you all learnt your trade by one means or another.
It's a typical remark from those with no interest in their breed apart from making money from producing puppies.  Very sad that this site that used to be held by those involved with dogs in such esteem has deteriorated to this extent.

>what was said was that only irresponsible breeders mate ALL their bitches to the same dog

And what about the 'responsible' breeders whom repeatedly (2+times) use the same dog (not necessarily their own dog) on an individual bitch? It's a thin line is it not :)

>And there it is, in a nutshell.
>You seem to think we can teach them a trade,

A very obvious "Figure of speech" :) Swop the word 'Trade' for 'Hobby'. It's amazing how you all pick up on the smallest thing and turn it into a reason to 'attack' :) At least if you are picking holes in what I say, then you are not having a go at new members :)

>but really breeding should be secondary to showing or working your dog.

Totally agree.

>I don't think anyone should 'just start breeding' any breed, just get 4 bitches and a dog and churn out puppies.

Assumption that this is what our new member is doing :) I am pretty sure that everyone here can quote a recent ('just start breeding') case of Mrs So-and-so breeding her 'Bella' to Mr UptheRoad's 'Berty'. If any 'thought' at all is involved, then both will be the same breed or, a 'doodle' may be the target. It happens and there is no point pretending it doesn't. The answer is EDUCATION and the reason this forum was formed. :) We realise that some of you would like to ban half the people whom come here for help and advice but that would beat the object of the forum.

>it's a reasonable assumption as anyone who does show would not consider it at all likely that one dog would suit all their bitches.

Education, education, education - we have seen it before. MANY people are not born 'knowing this fact' but you have a medium and an opportunity to teach anyone whom wishes to LEARN over wise :) What is not needed is the (general) snide comments and petty assumptions. As I have already stated, our new member came here for advice. That alone sets them apart from Mrs So-and-so and Mr UptheRoad. Don't scare them off with snide comments about their motives. Not everyone is the devil incarnate :)

>Responsible breeding isn't just about caring for your own dogs, it's about caring for the breed as a whole.

Totally agree.

There are some very good replies at the start of this thread and doing exactly what we ask - educate. If nothing else it has given people food for thought and hopefully, they have not been driven away by the unnecessary comments and will be back with more questions :)

If the breed was a "rare" one that it could be acceptable to have a stud dog & use him on some of your bitches-it's highly unlikely that one stud dog would be a good match to 4 bitches-unless of course those bitches were closely related & even then it would produce puppies who obviously if bred from would need an outside stud for a couple of generations. All a bit pointless as it wouldn't really be aimed at improving the breed

However this is a popular & fairly numerous breed & of course they command a fairly high price-logic demands that such a set up would be ideal for a mass production of puppies rather than improving the breed both in health & breed type

JMHO from non breeder involved with livestock rather than "Bloodstock" of pedigree dogs

Assumption that this is what our new member is doing I am pretty sure that everyone here can quote a recent ('just start breeding') case of Mrs So-and-so breeding her 'Bella' to Mr UptheRoad's 'Berty'. If any 'thought' at all is involved, then both will be the same breed or, a 'doodle' may be the target. It happens and there is no point pretending it doesn't. The answer is EDUCATION and the reason this forum was formed.

I know of at least 15 people who have bought in dogs/pups and started breeding them in the last year.   That's 15 people in just one small ward of a small town.  In an area spanning just half a mile by a quarter!  and these are only the people I know about.

As for educating them, the one thing they all have in common, is that they will seek out anyone with any breeding knowledge and pump  them for  breeding info, mainly to do  with saving money.    They aren't interested in being educated or being responsible.

Sadly, I  think you completely  underestimate the size of the problem of irresponsible profit breeding.  

Whilst I think education is entirely laudable,  it is becoming clear that in most cases, education simply enables the  irresponsible to increase the numbers of litters and puppies they produce, whilst avoiding all the expenses.  This is helping neither the bitches, nor the pups.

Is this now really any different to being a website advising people on the best ways to set up a puppy farm?

We have always advised people who find themselves at a puppyfarm to walk away, unsold pups are the best deterrant.

By the same token, by NOT advising and helping these private puppy farmers, we indirectly ensure that they earn less money from their endeavours and perhaps rethink the whole venture.  There's nothing like a lot of unexpected expenses for putting you off breeding for profit.

US statistics show that the biggest input into the rescue system is not actually the puppy farmer volume breeding but the thousands of ill thought out one off litters, where the breeders do not have the experience or willingness for the long term to look out for the welfare of what their breed or breeding.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/mill.htm

"What is a Back Yard Breeder aka BYB?



The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.



The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.



Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.



Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.



Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.



Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble: 

* the parents likely have not been screened for health problems

* puppies usually are not sold with contracts and no future support to the buyer

* the breeders are not in it for the long haul

* They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help.

Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a back yard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder."

> By the same token, by NOT advising and helping these private puppy farmers, we indirectly ensure that they earn less money from their endeavours and perhaps rethink the whole venture.  There's nothing like a lot of unexpected expenses for putting you off breeding for profit.

Great post Dill.

The question is Admin...
When does the Educator become the Facilitator?

And what about the 'responsible' breeders whom repeatedly (2+times) use the same dog (not necessarily their own dog) on an individual bitch? It's a thin line is it not :-)

I don't think so. Not only don't I know anyone who would repeat a mating more than once (i.e. same mating done twice, which occasionally there may be reasons to do) but I think there is a huge difference to doing this with ONE bitch, to doing it with FOUR. Not a thin line at all.

Any sensible breeder knows that no matter how good, repeat matings are not good for a breed as they reduce genetic diversity, especially as more people may want a pup from a repeat of a really successful mating, and then the lines could become over represented.

I have only repeated a mating once, and that was with the first litter being small, ( kept one who ahs been bred from) only one of the second litters pups was bred from in the UK, but two did get bred from abroad, in two different countries, and another was shown in another country but not bred from.

All breeders should consider the impact their breeding may have on the breed for good or ill.

It is also the puppy buyers that need to be educated, although the majority of them do not care, they just want a cheap puppy. As a groomer I have lost count of the number of people who come to me with a dog that they bought "because they felt sorry for it or they needed to rescue it" I agree that this forum is for education which I applaud but I used to be a member of another forum and stopped going on the site because of the abuse that was given to some people. I am a breeder but do not post on forums because we all do things our own way and I have learnt through experience to do what I consider to be the right thing. YES I DO SHOW MY DOGS before anyone has a go and I want to produce a dog that does well in the ring. I have had some success and hopefully will continue to do more. I have done this without the help of forums as I find I get little help from people who think they know it all and have little time for us "beginners". One thing I do remember is that I was told by a "reputable breeder" that I would have to do an apprenticeship of many years before I was accepted. No wonder show numbers are dropping, because newcomers are not welcomed neither are new breeders.