Hi everyone, Im new to this site. I have a gorgeous black dog called Charlie, what I was told was a Labrador cross, but I believe he is a staffy x bull mastiff x great dane! Hes huge. He is the most adorable loving dog Ive ever known and so loyal but he hates children and Im not really sure what the best approach is.

My best friend has 2 children, aged 2 and nearly 5, and Charlie growled at the older one a few months back. Ever since then we have kept them at arms length of each other and found that Charlie would take himself away from the 5 year old on his own. Never been a problem since. The 5 year old would throw a ball and Charlie would fetch it and we would take the ball off him etc for her to throw and he seemed quite happy with that. His main problem was if she was in his space or putting her arms around him. We stopped this and everything seemed fine.

4 weeks ago I got a laborador bitch who in currently in her 2nd week of being in season. Today we did the usual with my friends kids but today Charlie was much more aggressive towards her, more than usual. Even the little girl walking nearby set him off growling. Could this be because his friends is in season that hes more aggressive than normal? Are there any techniques I can use to help him get over his fear of children. I do believe its a fear because when shes near his legs do shake. I don't know his background as he came to me at approximately 18 months to 2 years old as a cowering wreck.

Would it help if I put a muzzle on him and sort of desensitise him to children, i.e. let them play around him (completely supervised and never putting them in danger) or would this not help?

Any advice is gratefully received.

I would say that absolutely, this could be being made worse by her season.  I'd keep him away from children altogether until she's fully over it and a few weeks on top.

As far as the children go: no, I would absolutely NOT muzzle him and let them play around him.  He is not totally happy about them now, doing that will only make things worse.  Whilst muzzling might be a sensible precaution, it can also lull people into a sense of complacency because they know he can't hurt them, and they can then inadvertently get too close and stress him out, making the problem worse in the long term.

You need to back right off, and take this VERY slowly.  Treat it as you would a phobia in people: facing your fear very rarely works because it's too much too fast; what works is gradual desensitisation and counterconditioning at the person's pace, and the same is true of dogs.  You need to work at a level that he is comfortable with - this is what's known as keeping him 'sub threshold', i.e. working below the point at which he cannot cope and begins to growl/shows stressed body language etc.  So, for example, if he begins to become uncomfortable with a child at 20 feet away, work at 25 feet.  It's great that he is choosing to take himself away - that sort of decision is exactly the sort you want to encourage, because it is an active decision to avoid confrontation or aggression.  Great!

Desensitisation is basically getting him used to children - the mechanics of the ball game you describe is a good way of doing that.  Very little pressure, and rewarding too.  Counterconditioning is changing the associations he has with children - I find that food is by far and away the fastest and most effective way to do this, because eating food releases endorphins and triggers dopamine/serotonin production, both of which make him feel better.  So, pair children with food!  A good way to start is the open bar/closed bar method - you are the bar (the source of food), and when a child appears, you start to feed him a constant stream of small, really tasty treats and when the child goes away, you stop.  So child appears, bar opens, child disappears, bar closes.  It's a very good way to make a very strong positive association quickly.

At some point in this process he should start to look to you when a child appears for his food.  This is good as it shows he is making the right connection (that a child is a predictor of good things happening, not scary things).  So, now you can start to reward him for looking at you when he sees a child.  This will continue building the positive association, but also start to build his responsiveness to you when they are around and also his awareness generally (so rather than just focusing on the child in a fearful way, he starts to think about what might happen to him in a good way and becomes more aware of what he's doing that's getting him a reward).

From here you can start to reward particular behaviours.  Reward literally anything that is not a growl (as long as he is at a comfortable distance, remember): looking, turning or walking away, sitting, lying down, doing nothing.  Nothing is actually a very good behaviour to reward!  Sounds a bit odd but it's underrated as a behaviour - if he's doing nothing then he's not growling, so it's good. So if a child walks past and he does nothing, reward it!

You are already doing a stellar job with management by stopping the kids touching him or being too close, that is brilliant :-)  You need to maintain that out and about if any children want to touch him - be very firm, do not let them.  Any time he gets unwanted contact will set him back.

On that note I'd also stop having him around your friend's children for the time being while you work on this - if his legs are shaking when she's near then he is already over threshold, and learning will be severely impeded.  He needs to be totally comfortable and calm for you to have any chance of success.  If you are visiting her at her house, leave him at home; if she is visiting you at yours, put him away somewhere quiet with something to do (treat ball, stuffed kong, that sort of thing) so he's busy and feels safe.

If he's THAT big and giving warnings already, muzzle and or keep him away from children.

This must NOT be a training exercise using human children.

I'm sorry but phrases like" work at a level that he is comfortable in" and " if he becomes uncomfortable at 20 ft try 25" is absolute madness.it appears as if the dogs comfort outweighs the children's safety.

No one should put children's lives at risk around a big powerful dog. Muzzle on before you become a tabloid headline.

I agree totally with Tooolz, this is a terrible disaster waiting to happen.You must keep this dog away from these children and muzzle him when likely to come in contact with any other children too.

Much as I hate to have to use a muzzle on a dog, if this prevents a tragedy from happening, this may be what has to happen.  Fact is dogs who haven't grown up around small children, are quite often wary of them.   It's their fast movements and high pitched voices, plus the fact that sometimes the parents don't watch their kids who often don't realise a dog isn't a toy.   

Personally I'd keep him right away from children which is a shame, but again if it prevents a tragedy, this has to be done.

I'd imagine he's well worked up right now, if he's entire and has an in-season bitch in the same house.  Clearly you'll need to get her spayed between now and the next season!!

The problem with owning a huge dog that 'hates children' is even if all precautions are taken, slip ups can happen. Harsh as it may seem, I would see the safest option in all honesty as PTS. I could never keep an unreliable dog like that.

Children are more important than any dog who may or may not have had a chequered life. Not all 'bad' dogs can be turned around and the risks during the process are, in a case like this too devastating to contemplate.

Well hang on a moment everyone. If I have read this correctly, all this dog has done is GROWL. Growling is good! Growling is excellent in fact, it shows it is a dog that will give you a WARNING. It shows restraint. The children don't live with the dog, they visit. Why on earth would this mean the dog would have to be put to sleep? Muzzle the dog and put him in a different room when there are children visiting -use child and dog proof gates, don't let them meet. The fact he is unsure of children doesn't mean anything else. I have a bitch who is unsure of children and therefore growls at them. She was with two different sets of puppy walkers for the MOD, at least one had several young children, so I don't know what bad experiences she can have had. She is a lovely dog and absolutely fine. I don't let children meet her, end of story. She is shown successfully and regularly, she is extremely loving and friendly with people in her family. She has recently had pups and she allowed all the puppy buyers into the house when they started to visit at about 5 weeks, no problem. The fact that she growls at children is neither here nor there. I have no children younger than 14, she doesn't meet children regularly, and at training class and shows I simply tell chidlren that no, they can't say hello -and of course she is never left unattended at shows -none of my dogs are, ever.

Not everyone Marianne. Everyone has suggested avoidance/ muzzling/ isolating from children bar one who wants to train using children.

Only one suggested PTS.

I think that everyone is mindful that this is a Staff x Bull Mastiff x G.Dane.

It won't be a little nip if a dog of this power decides to have a go.

I don't understand the culture of every dog is supposed to like children and there is something wrong with them if they don't. :-)

Many dogs do not like being around children at all....... many humans don't either ;-) but at least they get the chance to avoid them. Children are unpredictable in their movements and vocal ranges, most dogs put up with them, and many have no choice in it, but I don't really think many dogs would choose to sit in a room with toddlers and young children given the choice.

My dogs and all family dogs have always been around children, they of course socialise with each family they live with, but when in my house, which is quite often, I still and always will put all dogs behind a dog gate when young children are about, I don't care if I trust them 100%, (which I actually do :-) ) I generally do it to protect the dogs and just in cases do happen.........

This dog is growling, he is voicing his unhappiness, so listen to the dog, put a dog gate up so that he can be away from visiting children and don't think there is anything wrong with that, of course there isn't............ the less he is intimidated, the more he is likely to accept.

I also agree an in-season bitch is probably stirring him up a lot as well, giving him less patience as his mind is elsewhere......

It may have been 'only growling' which I would agree under normal circumstances would be good as it is obviously warning at this stage.

I made the statement I did because A) it would appear this dog is huge, B) it is of unknown background , C) The owner stated it 'hates' children. Not a recipe for success. In the light of some of the terrible cases of dog attacks, this would to me seem the better solution.

Sorry if  people disagree with my view but as far as I am concerned the higher priority would be making sure this dog NEVER  has an opportunity to attack a child. There is only one way  this can be ensured.

With respect Goldmali, you have I suspect considerably more experience than the OP- maybe they could keep the dog away from children but.....

> I'm sorry but phrases like" work at a level that he is comfortable in" and " if he becomes uncomfortable at 20 ft try 25" is absolute madness.it appears as if the dogs comfort outweighs the children's safety.

Not at all, but the OP asked for advice on how to make him more comfortable around them, which is what I gave.  I did not mean to try him at 20ft then try further away if he's not comfortable, I worded that very badly.  What I meant was that as an example, if he is not happy at 20ft, then all work done should take place at a greater distance from the beginning, for example 25ft.  Or 30ft.  The OP will already know the sort of distance at which he becomes uncomfortable so there is no need for her to establish that now.  For this dog the threshold may be 50ft so the OP could work at 60ft.  Whatever applies to the dog and keeps everyone safe.  It's the same principle that underpins any work on desensitisation and counterconditioning - all work must be done further away than the distance at which the dog becomes worried.  If that is followed carefully, then at no point is a child being put at risk.  I did say to put him away if the children have to visit, did I not?  And to keep him away from the OP's friend's children for now, while she begins work on the issue. 

I did the same process when I took on my first rescue, a large, totally unsocialised dobermann bitch who was dangerously aggressive to children (and adults, and other animals); no child was EVER put in a position of risk; all the work was done sub-threshold, so the dog did not feel the need to aggress and I was able to alter her perception of children safely, calmly and effectively.  Not once did I actively "use" a child for training, everything was done on walks as they appeared, and at a distance.  I was careful to put more distance between us as and when children appeared, and I always advocate doing that.  With all that in place, my girl went from a dog who would have made headlines given a chance when I adopted her, to a dog that tried to actively seek out children to get fuss (and no, I didn't allow her to, to be on the safe side).

I'm also not advocating "using children" to train - I was explaining how one could go about starting the process when children appear.  This does not mean actively seeking them out, but can be done if they pass the dog somewhere such as on a street walk.

I think some of you may also have misunderstood my feelings on muzzling - I didn't say 'don't muzzle him at all', and I do think that is a sensible precaution if he's likely to be near them.  What I did say was 'don't muzzle him and let children play around him', which is what the OP actually asked about, and I stand by that.

I also think a lot of you are going way OTT as Marianne has noticed - this isn't a dog who has attacked or snarled or snapped, he has growled.  And by choice, he has taken himself away from a child when he was uncomfortable.  Advising PTS when he doesn't even live with the children is IMO just ludicrous!  And given all the bad press lately about dogs around children, surely it's a better idea to at least try and make him happier around them, rather than just completely keep him away?  Doing that may well mean that his issues get worse and do begin to progress beyond just growling, and when that happens it becomes harder to mend.  Far better to begin desensitising and counterconditioning him now, in a controlled way, and build things in favour of a good outcome, should he have an unplanned encounter with a child later on (muzzled or otherwise).

I will also add to my advice that the OP finds a decent behaviourist to walk her through the process and make sure everything is done safely and all body language learned and adhered to.

One ......we know NOTHING OF THIS POSTERS ABILITY to control this very large dog in the event of escalation.

And TWO....

>Today we did the usual with my friends kids but today Charlie was much more AGGRESSIVE towards her, more than usual. Even the little girl walking nearby set him off growling.

I'd be very, very careful in giving any other advice other than NO contact with children.

Which is why I added to get a decent behaviourist in to help, and said the same as everyone else about keeping him away from these children for the time being at least, and maintain distance from children in general as she works with him.  And agreed that he should be muzzled, just in case (just not for the purpose the OP was suggesting).

If distance is maintained, then escalation is not only avoidable but considerably less likely to occur, because the dog should not feel threatened in a situation/proximity he cannot cope with.  So yes, as you say, no contact with children.  It is possible to improve a dog's reaction to any trigger without any actual contact, which is what I've been attempting to explain.

Unfortunately we hear too many stories of Dogs attacking children and in many cases it is where the child does not live at the premises. In many cases people ask the same questions, along the lines of: "Why was the children / Child let near a Dog that they do not know", "Why were the children / child left with the Dog without supervision". Usually these questions are asked "After" the fact and when it is all too late, so I am glad that you are asking the question before it happens as it shows that you are aware of a problem.

Most Dogs will protect their family and home and whilst the visitors are not a threat any dog will be wary to a degree, more so with some breeds. Dogs that are raised with children are normally absolutely fine with them, but I believe partly because the children have been taught how to behave with them and whilst they can have fun with other children, it is not the same thing. I have had dogs in my life from as far back as I can remember but as an adult some 35 + years, yet even today (when we have 700 grandchildren visiting in one go), I am constantly watching them around the kids even though they have grown up around each other. Dogs can be totally unpredictable for so many different reasons, "A raised voice" "A childs screech" etc etc. I currently have four dogs living on my sofa whilst my wife and I live on the floor. Cooper the basset will not allow any of the others near If he is having a one on one cuddle, yet at any other time he is playing with the others like a dog possessed. As we are aware of this issue then he does not get his one on one when the kids are around, (Just in case) I would agree with a lot of other comments here. You are aware of a problem, just make sure the problem does not turn into a tragedy. It appears that you have already had TWO warnings, next time it may not be a warning! That does not mean to say that your dog is aggressive, it just means that he is wary around kids, perhaps he found the older child was forceful in some way and felt threatened. Perhaps he was mistreated by a child in this age group. I would look at just putting them in another room for the short time you have visitors, failing that BAN CHILDREN. (what a lovely thought)

> when we have 700 grandchildren visiting in one go

:-o too !

Probably feels like 700 ;)

Especially at Christmas!

I think Nikita has given excellent advice and we must bear in mind that it may not be possible to avoid all children all the time, but simply to muzzle while around children without adhering to thresholds etc means that the dog may rapidly become more fearful of children.

Like Nikita, I'd suggest help of good behaviourist to first condition dog to a Baskerville ultra muzzle and then when he us happy to wear it to work on counter condutioning around children, ensuring wherever possible he is kept under threshold.

I would say the worst thing would be to put him to be close to children with a muzzle on and no training, he us a big dog and could still hurt a child even with a muzzle.

One of my gentle Bassets, would rumble at young children running around when visiting.   No way was she a pts candidate, much as I did remove her from where the kids were, just in case.   Actually how she was was more like she was when correcting her puppies!!!

I also agree that sometimes having a muzzle in place can make a dog immediately feel at a disadvantage = potentially being more likely to learn to be fearful when around children.   I'd suggest this is not a blanket situation - use whatever is necessary, to fit the situation?

My dog doesn't hate small children but she wasn't used to them when the grandchildren started arriving, 4 within 4 years. I can't say she took it all in her stride even though in 5 and half years she's shown no aggression towards them.  She's never been left alone with them. I can tell sometimes though that she's getting fed up with their pestering her so I put her behind a child gate where her bed and water bowl are anyway.  It's as much for her benefit and far better to prevent an accident than rue the day.

MB, and it would be unwise to try to manage the situation by always trying to keep her separate from children thereby slowly desocialising her more. That is why I said Nikita's advice was spot on. Let's take the opportunity now to try to change the dog's mind about children. We can use a muzzle to increase safety but first we have to properly train the dog for the muzzle, so she also feels good about that. All this will take time and a good behaviourist is essential. But the effort has to be worth it.

I can tell sometimes though that she's getting fed up with their pestering her so I put her behind a child gate where her bed and water bowl are anyway.  It's as much for her benefit and far better to prevent an accident than rue the day.

Not that I really should be explaining myself, this is along the lines of what I was suggesting when I said separate the dog from the kids.   Especially the last sentence here.

Wow - lots of replies thank you.

I certainly don't feel that Charlie needs to be pts. Im quite saddened that this was the first thought by one particular poster as Charlie in every other way is a gentle giant and I do have great control of him generally most of the time.

Having said that, these past few days he has been very out of character but my Labrador is now in her 3rd week of season and I am putting it down to that.

I have found a local dog trainer who I am going to take both dogs to as soon as the Labrador has finished her season and both dogs are going to be booked in for the good old snip. (I have only had the Lab a few weeks so didn't have chance to get her to the vets before her season started).

Thank you for your advice. I used to come on here a long time ago and remember a few names so its nice to see some of the old names popping back up. :-)

If your male is under confident then I would think seriously about not having him neutered as that is likely to make him worse, as removing testosterone could make him worse, and has more health negatives than benefits, especially in large breeds.

Much higher risk of bone cancer (which giant breeds are more prone to), more prostate cancer risk etc.

Spaying the bitch has more benefits than negatives for the bitch.

I agree, I would definitely wait, at the very least until you've worked through some training with him.  Testosterone can really give some dogs an extra 'backbone' of sorts and removing it can really muck things up.  Occasionally it can help, but as it's an irreversible procedure, you definitely want to err on the side of caution.  I've seen how badly it can affect an underconfident male and if it has that effect, training becomes a heck of a lot harder.

Me too would wait - I only castrate for medical reasons.   Quite different, for me, with spaying.  You may well find once he's not having to live around a bitch in season, he's a different animal.

> I have only had the Lab a few weeks

I'd say this is as relevant to your male's change in behaviour as her season will be.  A new dog in the household can have a huge impact on an existing dog which may be felt for many months.

Any situation where a dog is excited, or fearful, can be a trigger point for a range of difficult behaviours that are exacerbated by the presence of another dog.  I would be very careful to train both dogs separately, giving plenty of 1:1.  Use baby gates and doors to ensure that both dogs have some space from each other, at times when they are more likely to be highly charged: mealtimes, visitors, walks etc

Oh heck, that throws a spanner in the works as the vet told us the best course was to get him spade even way before we got the female.

I didn't realise there were so many negatives to castrating a dog.

Unfortunately the vets advice often follows perceived social benefits.

They assume al owners are idiots and will allow their dogs to reproduce willy nilly, so lets neuter everything regardless if it's in the dogs interest.  Of course the idiot owners are the least likely to neuter their dogs in a timely fashion, and the sensible ones will ensure their dogs don't get the opportunity to breed.

This article sets our the pros and cons. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Just a thought have you got his hips checked out ? The reason I mention this is because Puds my oldie Lab has severe HD.

When out and about she growls whenever she meets a newbie youngster who is a bit bouncy as she won't tolerate play fighting where a dog jumps on her. I wonder if he has had a child that has leant/ knocked him whilst playing and it has caused him pain before ?

>Oh heck, that throws a spanner in the works as the vet told us the best course was to get him spade

You may find this article of some interest: Champdogs Blog: The Pros and Cons of Neutering