I know ive posted before but my now 18week old bichon is biting really hard we can be sitting on sofa and he will jump at us and bite so hard on any given bit of skin for no apparent reason im getting so upset at the fact we have an aggressive dog on our hands we had a trainer out whom gave us instructions to carry out which we have nothing seems to be working please someone with bichon experience please help me :(

> we had a trainer out whom gave us instructions to carry out which we have

When did the trainer come out to you? what were the suggestions made?

To ignore bad behaviour and reward good when he barks to turn our back if still persists leave the room been doing that for weeks when he bites the ow ow thing remove ourself from the situation then praise when stops nothing he continues to bite HARD even if we say good boy and try to stroke him he reacts with his damn teeth

Tracey over your threads you've had such wonderful advice from so many people and yes, you are doing what we have told you, and also your trainer has given the same advice, but the most important thing you keep missing is it takes time, you need patience, your pup is still a pup, he will be a pup for a good few months so he will continue to act like a pup, pups communicate with their mouth, they bite and scratch it is how they play, you are teaching him for when he is an adult, how to behave as a domestic dog, not a pup, a pup will continue to be a pup and play like this, you are teaching him for when he begins to mature.

For now, protect yourself, you know he is rough and he bites hard so keep your legs and arms, hands etc out of reach when he comes over, be ready to detract this behaviour with tuggies etc, teach him commands and train him over the next few months this is not a quick fix, he won't stop being a pup, because you are beginning the training process, continue with all we and your trainer have taught you and wait........... what you put in is what will come out in the adult dog, perhaps this is where you are expecting too much, a pup will always be a pup, :-) differing degrees of roughness from different pups, but you are training for a longterm effect, not a short one, as there is no such thing. :-)

Thankyou i hope ur right its just the bite seems like he means it :( thanks again

Oh he does mean it, he means to grab hold of your skin and drag you around, unlike a pup ours is not lose and will bleed. If you watch an 8 week old litter some of the pups in it can drag others around by the ears and neck and have them screetching, it's why litters cannot stay together at this age as play fighting gets out of hand for us humans to watch, in steps the dam or the breeder to sort it out and detract. You've got the rough one, but as we've said, it means nothing to how this pup will grow up, absolutely does not make him an aggressive adult dog and indeed not an aggressive pup he is doing what comes naturally.

Accept it, and just keep at it with the training, it will all be ok........ eventually. :-)

I'd much prefer a munchy monster like yours, than one who hardly mouths/bites or not at all.   With plenty of training your pup will eventually 'get it'  and lets face it, he's having lots of opportunity to learn.   But the pup who hardly bites, or not at all, never learns to be gentle.   Then one day, something happens, and his first bite is also his last :-(

A pup is a work in progress.   The more times he gets something wrong, the more opportunities he has to get it right.  This will make him a solid reliable dog as an adult, if you put the time and the work in.

I don't particularly enjoy living with a pup, despite their cuteness, and how lovely they are.  They are hard work !!   And so they should be, they are babies learning to be dogs, and it's our job to teach them all the things we need them to know so that they can be a pleasure to live with as adults  :-)     

  It takes the whole of it's puppyhood and then some, before we can start to see the finished dog.

In addition, I would expect your pup to be starting teething by18 weeks, so he's probably needing to chew more now, not less.   What provision have you made for this?   Does he have really enjoyable things to chew?    

At this age, my pups have at least one soft bristled dustpan brush with handle chopped off,  various steamed bones which are regularly smeared inside with pate, soft cheese, peanut butter etc.   A nice 'gristly' meaty bone bigger than the dog's head (for supervised chewing)  empty squash bottles without the lids - easy to replace when riffy, and various different toys and raggies.  I also froze carrots for the pup.  

As the others have said he is still very young.

Now imagine a 50 pound juvenile delinquent at 8 1/2 months, acting just like your pup. 

This was my Jozi (now 14 1/2) when she came back to me as her owners couldn't cope, and had not followed training advice, simply crating her when she was OTT.

If you told her off she thought it was a game :)

It took us several months of following the advice you have had. 

I gave many fellow exhibitors a chuckle in the show-ring over the first year I had her back as she hung onto my trouser legs, nipped my bum etc.

My young retriever was very bitey as a pup taking me by surprise as the last three hadn't been so bad. The second retriever was a nervous puppy and didn't nip very much at all, consequently she never really learnt bite restraint as an adult and when offered a treat would grab wildly at it and you needed to check you still had fingers left. She meant no harm, but she hadn't understood from an early age that humans need to be treated gently. The only way to offer her a treat was to hold it in a clenched fist for her to nose it out.
The current pup despite only being 10 months, takes the tiniest amount of food from your fingers without harm. If she gets excited or throws a tantrum, which she occasionally does at the moment, and jumps up and mouths, there is no harm to me, yet I can see what those teeth are capable of when she chomps her way through a bone.
I'm not familiar with Bichons, but all dogs are the same basically. Your trainer gave good advice, stick to it religiously. Your pup is still very young and seems very determined to get his own way, so you need to be just as determined back. I've always found the evenings are the worst for naughty behaviour as if they need one last burst of energy to get rid of before collapsing into sleep for the night.

The teething point is a good one - his gums may be sore which could be exacerbating the problem.  Frozen carrot sticks to chew are good if he will, they are tasty and will soothe his gums as well as distracting him from you and giving him something appropriate to munch which you can then reward him for doing.

Frozen chickens feet are guaranteed to give you up to an hour of peace.
I buy in bulk but a friendly butcher or Chinese supermarket may supply.

don't know if this has already been mentioned but this link is good http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0   the bite stops here by Ian dunbar

Yup that link has been given several times now ;-)

whoops I should read more lol

> To ignore bad behaviour and reward good

That's good, but that can be improved on for an easier lesson for your pup.
You also need to TEACH what IS appropriate ways that he can interact with you. Ie, get a toy that he can chew on while you hold it or rag it, play fetch, use his zest for wanting your attention as a window to teach some tricks or basic commands.

Teach, teach, teach and teach some more.

Also, if you set him up for success so he gets less of a chance to practice the behaviours you don't want him to do, the easier it is to teach him alternatives.
You know he will jump at you all when you're sat on the sofa, so you have ample opportunity to keep an eye on him and offer an alternative behaviour for him to do. If you really cannot stop him from jumping at you (which should be easy, he's only small and you can leash him) keep him out of that room untill you are able to properly supervise him.

>if we say good boy and try to stroke him he reacts with his damn teeth

Firstly, don't stroke his head. Secondly, do not pull your hand away fast - what a great game, snap at the hand and it whizzes around!
If he's biting in play, then I would personally not pull my hand away, I will not be intimidated by a puppy playing, that will only serve to teach him he can get his way using his teeth.
I would take my pup out of the room when he was getting OTT with play-biting and leave him in the kitchen for a few minutes to calm down. I would hold his collar to lead him away, he would take that as an opportunity to chew on my arm - I ignored it and he soon learnt there was no fun to be had as I did not react AT ALL to him.

Ignoring bad behaviour is not just staying silent, it means DO NOT REACT in any way that the pup could interpret as fun or rewarding. Yelling - even shouting out 'Ow' and moving yourself or a body part away quickly can all be taken as good fun. Complete inner and outer calmness is the only way to deal with a biting little hooligan.

I've been following this/these threads, has anyone suggested getting the pup checked over by the vet and did the breeder mention anything about either the pup having a difficult delivery or assessing the pup themselves. The reasons I'm asking is that many years ago, I bought a whippet pup from a decent breeder (or so I thought). Pup had the same upbringing as all my foster pups and my other owned dogs, yet despite the utmost care in socialisation and bite inhibition work (with us, as well as by playing with other dogs) once pup had got to 12 weeks old, she developed a nasty side to her personality. She would literally break the skin given the slightest chance and really meant it. This was not puppy biting in any way shape or form. In the end, my son was sitting quietly watching television, silent and still, and Evie ran in from the garden where she had been for a wee and bit him full on in the face. Had I not been sitting in the opposite chair I would have questioned what he did to instigate the bite, but there was nothing. The breeder eventually gave us the knowledge that not only was pup a breech delivery but she had taken ten minutes to ressucitate. The vet ran some tests and felt that although she looked fine on the outside, there was probably some sort of brain issue. Pup was returned to the breeder (as son was now terrified of her) and although the breeder tried her best she was bitten badly too. Eventually she had a fit and passed away.

Has anyone considered that there may be a health issue with this pup?

>Ignoring bad behaviour is not just staying silent, it means DO NOT REACT in any way that the pup could interpret as fun

I have wondered if the OP has been as consistent with this work in progress.  When we were told that the kids were in tears I had assumed it meant small children.  Yet they are teenagers.  I would expect a teenager (in my house) to walk away and leave the room without crying.  As any adult should.  This pup doesn't sound as if he is being set up to succeed. 

Alfie, the OP was advised here to get a vet check and to speak to the breeder asap. Both of which I believe were done.

If medically clear and behaviour deemed normal OP was further advised to get a behaviourist. I say that rather than trainer because something feels slightly awry. Either the pup is unusually OTT or the family are so stressed that the bond between family and pup is beginning to break down. If teenagers are crying etc.. this sounds like a very stressy environment and oup will pick up on it.

I've suggested a long line on quite a few occasions now. A Bichon is not big, it is easy to control them with a line and this means pup can be stopped from following, chasing to nip, pup can also be tethered easily which is better than isolating them in another room. Isolation should only be for seconds. If done for too long the pup does not understand and will get stressed and the problem escalates. You ideally want the pup to be able to see you calmly carrying on but unable to get at you.

I have dealt with a couple of very extreme playbiting pups by using a line.

Ouchs and ows work for little or sensitive pups, but as this age any interaction from a telling off to anything else will make it worse.

All of the above assumes that the all clear has been guven both by a vet abd the breeder.

Many reading this will be itching to meet this tiny tyke I'm sure.
Weighing in at between 2.5-3kg ....he already has grown up teenagers in tears!

Get a second hand playpen, set it up in the living room with you  and pop him in there with loads of great things to chew.
Pizzles, hooves, chickens feet ...alternate one of these when you want him to concentrate on a chew toy.
Clip on his lead, take him into the garden for his exercise then clip him back up and walk him into his play pen for his treats.
When HE'S SLEEPY AND calm, get him out for a soothing cuddle.....if he is unpleasant pop him back.
*Don't for heavens sake get this back to front and reward bad behaviour by getting him out if he plays up.*

You are reaching the time when he can go for little walks, see the outside world and this often exhausts young pups.
You may find when his world opens up he will be less frustrated.

Thankyou i have stocked up on lots of chew things which i had a few already and am going to stick with the training and try to ignore it very hard when his teeth are sunk into skin and have to prize open his jaw to release! When he is tired hes adorable and is the o ly time we can either have a cuddle or a stroke without a bite lol thanks all i appreciate every single piece of help and will take on board

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Many reading this will be itching to meet this tiny tyke I'm sure.<br />Weighing in at between 2.5-3kg ....he already has grown up teenagers in tears!

Oh yes!! I would dearly love to have "hands on" with him. With no disrespect to the OP those of us who are really true "dog folk" would instinctively know exactly how to handle this youngster.

A suggestion, could you time his walk for when eh is most lively, assuming this isn't when he is already over tired.

If you can take him out for a 20 minute lead walk (about right for a 4 months pup), then he should be ready to settle when he returns.

So before you settle to watch TV in the evening take him out for a 20 minute walk.

Hi there yes we take him on around 3-4 20 min walks a day it makes no difference he is such an unsettled pup if i get up to slightly move hes up too

I wish you could come and sort him for me lol it would be my pleasure :)

I think tooolz' suggestion on the playpen was excellent.

which area do you live in?

London

"I wish you could come and sort him for me lol it would be pleasure"

The trouble is, that many of us could probably sort out your pup ...but unless you and your family react in exactly the same way as whoever does the training, then it will all be in vain.    You all have to sing from the same hymn sheet - the person who runs away from him in tears will never, ever get this poor pup to do anything right!.

> London

Bit far from me. :(

>we take him on around 3-4 20 min walks a day

Actually this is rather too much. 5 minutes per month of life is the guideline for puppy excersise, up to twice a day.

It may be that as a result he is becoming over tired.  timing the walks for when eh is most likely to be lively (often teatime and first thing), is best, and try to keep the rest of his day more low key.

I was also thinking that perhaps he is overtired. Like Brainless has said, he is having too much exercise at the moment! But instead of sleeping afterwards he is struggling to stay awake to interact, but is going over the top due to being tired. I have been very careful with exercise with my pup (large breed) so that she doesn't suffer any bone or muscle damage, but also so that when she is taken out its a novelty and she sleeps properly afterwards.
When she was first able to go out, her walks consisted of a morning walk of about a few hundred yards up the road and back, normally takes about 2 or 3 minutes to do, but with a playful inquisitive pup it took longer, and then a play round in a field or a longer walk along the lane in the afternoon. I kept to the 5 minute walk per month of age rule as closely as possible (that refers to walking on the lead at an enforced pace). I found that after the morning stroll she would come back and within five minutes fall asleep for about an hour, then, after a toilet break, I would play and do a bit of training with her and then encourage her to have another sleep. After that doze, she would be given a raw bone or a cow hoof to chew on (chewing is very soporific for dogs) and so on and so fourth. We lived a very structured day for several months as the pup was not one to sleep very much and seemed to be constantly on the go and needed a lot of attention initially.
At 11 months, she still enjoys that short walk up the road and back in the morning (we pick up the newspaper) and still has a good sleep afterwards even though it hasn't been a strenuous workout requiring sleep on order to recover.
Have you tried teaching a 'settle down' cue word? You have to start at the right moment. When your pup is tired and getting to the stage of lying down to go off to sleep, say to him 'settle down' a few times in a calm low voice. Try and time it when he is closing his eyes. Keep doing this every time he is settling down to sleep. Eventually you will be able to say 'settle down' and your pup will take himself off and go and lie down quietly, maybe even fall asleep. It takes time and patience and don't expect instant results.

> It takes time and patience and don't expect instant results

EXACTLY!

TP, which part of London are you in?

I cannot add anything significant to the excellent advice and suggestions here.

Having just read Jodi's post, this is similar to how I structure my pups day. Although mine is a very large breed of now 11 months old, my breed are not an easy breed, they are very rambunctious, determined, stubborn and like to use their size and weight to get their own way on occasions. Being bitten by my boy, even in play, is absolutely not an option, nor was it for the last 2 of this breed that I had.

Structure and solid routine seems to work for me and my boy. He knows what is expected of him although he is much older than your pup but the foundations were laid from day 1 when he was 6 weeks old. We stick as rigidly to a routine as possible and this keeps him calm and on the right track. I am aware that this isn't always possible and my routines do vary now that he is older but in the early days, he was secure in the knowledge of what was going to happen next. If he felt secure, he was and is a lot calmer. Firm boundaries and strict routines have worked for us.

Teaching a settle down or whatever word you want to use is very useful as Jodi advised. Any behaviour that is displayed naturally that I want to encourage, I put a word to it. They soon get used to understanding and associating the word with the action. Consistency is so important, as is tone of voice and body language. For example, my boy is very long and heavy coated now, I like him to shake himself when its raining before we come indoors as it gets the surplus water off, every time that he shook naturally, I used the word "shake", he now does this on command...the same as toileting when we are out. If I want him to relieve himself before a long car journey, he now does it on command as he has grown up listening to me saying it about 100 times a day when he was being toilet trained outside. Lol - realise what I have said is a bit trivial but I was using it as an example to explain what I meant in real terms.

>I like him to shake himself when its raining before we come indoors as it gets the surplus water off, every time that he shook naturally, I used the word "shake", he now does this on command...the same as toileting when we are out.

I do this with my lot.  I also demonstrate and shake myself, and get some funny looks from the older ones ;)

ar heathrow airport and not all 4 walks are 20min long some are just around a small square out front :) i do have another question he seems to pant alot in the evening could this be teething??

TP so are you actually in Heathrow town or closer to West London?

Near west london yes

Tracey can you pm me which trainer you have seen to date and where you found them.

forgot to add i used them before with my staffy and she was a brilliant dog :)

They seem good. I'd stick with them and don't be tempted to keep swapping around. As many others have said,you have just got to accept that the young fella will not change overnight so just stick with it and try to stay calm.

Finally i see the light at the end of the tunnel hes improved 60% im so relieved thankyou all!! Although still baffled to the panting every night from about 730pm ?? Any ideas?

Yay!   Knew you'd get there eventually :-)

Stress?    If over tired, or over stimulated.    What routine do you have for sleep/feeding/play/training?

Also, does he get any treats before this?   Could be a reaction to something he's eating.  What food is he on?  What treats does he get?    Does he have free access to water?

> Although still baffled to the panting every night from about 730pm

I agree - stress.

Tracey, I'd speak to the vet about the panting.

Panting is generally caused by elevated heart rate or heat. Assuming that he is not near a heater at 7.30 every night you have to consider what would be making his heart rate go up...as others suggest, something could be getting him anxious or excited(do children or partner arrive home at that time, noises outside like foxes or cats?) as Dill says, he may be over tired by then and this is his body compensating. Alternatively, he may be reacting to something in his diet, something in a chew or treat, even a cleaning agent. I'd have a good think and watch the sequence of events tonight..what does he do and what happens about 20 mins before as well as duriing the panting.

I would also mention this to the vet. If it is considered that diet is the culprit you may have to put him on an exclusion diet.

Free acess to water hes fed on nutriment raw diet treats are only fresh chicken bits no processed foods at all he just randomly pants around
730 every evening and restless like hes just hot!? Weird

Nothing out of the ordinary happens everyone settles down around 7pm he usually follows me absoloutley everywhere all day long when im busy washing cleaning etc so cant think of anything odd hes done it every evening lately for around hour or so then stops and flops out he is a very unsettled pup sleeps and as soon as someone moves hes up behind them and if he in crate hes up and howling to follow

My Golden pup also seems to be a hot dog, especially when she was younger. She's restless anyway, but the evenings were her worse times. She would pant in the evenings too, her brother was the same apparently. I've recently got her a cool mat to lie on and that has been gratefully received.

Hi Tracey,

Does he settle and sleep for periods during the day or is he actually shadowing you virtually non-stop?

I had a pup that was very 'bitey' that had to be 'forced' to take rest /sleep periods throughout the day(achieved by covering a huge lidded puppy pen with a large blanket-thus removing as much outside light and noise stimulus as possible- for every sleep period). Initially the pup would scream and wail throwing herself around in protest for quite some time before konking out. I always stayed in the room but did not react to the protests and yes, it is hard but a degree of experience tells you when the protest is pure panic and when it is a 'tantrum'. Eventually this pup got the idea and we got into a routine of regular sleeps interspersed with play and feeds etc.. This pup also used to go at a chew like hammer and tongs for about 5 mins before konking out too and I held a chew for her so that it became a bonding but winding down exercise.

If pup won't settle at all either he has not yet 'learned' to switch off or he needs seen by the vet/qualified behaviourist- your trainers are very experienced but not sure if they could do a full behaviour consult.

The panting, in my view, should be checked out if it continues- it could be that he runs a little hot after his evening meal. I think though that there is a limit to how much good advice you can get here when we cannot see the whole picture. There could be something obvious that you are not seeing that an experienced eye could pick up, equally there could be something a vet sees. Again, I would also ask you to speak with the dog's breeder. The breeders often know more about the dogs than anyone else- if they are good breeders that is.

If that's the case, it could be sheer exhaustion and stress!

It sounds to me as if he needs some training in 'letting go'    The stress of making sure he knows where everyone is and what they are doing is too much for him (it's a very big responsibility for a little dog).  So he has to keep an eye on you, even when that means he's not getting any sleep during the day.  Which he needs.

If this goes on, you're going to have a dog who breaks his little heart every time you go out and can't take him, and he's left home alone :(  Even if it's only putting the washing on the line!    You may think that you'll never need to go out and leave him alone, but circumstances change, often quite suddenly.  None of us knows what is around the corner.

It takes time and patience to train a pup to be left alone.  For short periods at first - only a minute or so.  And at first it seems cruel because if they haven't been trained from the day you get them, they make a huge fuss.    But in the long term, it's better for the dog to be able to relax if you aren't with him.   Otherwise it can all get too much for them and they get really stressed.  which can have a physical effect as well as a mental effect.

Most people are very good at playing with pups and stimulating them.   Not so good at making sure they get enough sleep and learn to settle and relax regardless ;-)