Someone in my breed has just had her 5 week in whelp bitch scanned by a very experienced scanner who found in excess of 20 pups. This is a breed that is notoriously difficult to whelp being lazy and whimpy !
The owner is understandably distressed as she loves her girl and is frightened of loosing her.
Anyone had experience of such a huge litter  ?
I think she would be best if she gets to 8 weeks monitoring her very closely and getting her in for an elective C-sect if she gets to 60/61 days That way she can ensure a daytime op with plenty of help on hand rather than a 3am emergency with on call staff.
The logistics of feeding that many pups if they survive is mind boggling, I have suggested she joins an orphaned puppy site in case its needed to foster some pups out.
Any suggestions would be very helpful.
Aileen

I would go for an elective on day 56.  Just my own take on it.

So sorry for her.  You would have expected the bitch to reabsorb quite a few of them.  Bet the owner is beside herself.

I know I don't have direct experience.... but weekly scanning might be an idea, with perhaps an X-ray closer to the date, just to ascertain numbers and positions?

Such a large litter does sound unusual, however I recently heard about a couple of (related) bitches that were found to have 3 uterine horns not 2.... In those cases it led to infertility... but it does make you wonder.

Yes x-ray is a sensible option.  I once had a bitch in labour, and getting nowhere, and asked for an x-ray.  Good job too, as it revealed 2 pups jammed side by side in the same uterine horn.  They looked like conjoined twins, exactly the same size, face to face.  They would never have come down.  I asked for a section, and the pups were delivered without a problem.  They weren't joined, but were identical.  Oh yes, and they were live.

Blimey! Do update us later on how this goes, Merlot. I would be with you, an elective CS when you can plan for it and have plenty of help on hand.

Why a C section? Surely it would be better to let the bitch have them naturally?With that nuber of pupps the bitch will need to have all her wits about her  so the last thing she needs is an anaesthetic.  The bitch is less likely to reject a naturally born litter too. I am sure some pups will need to be supplemented but it will be better for everyone if the bitch can do most of the puppy rearing. so I wouldn't want to risk rejection.  They are unlikely to be to big to deliver and labour is likely to start with that number of pups. An xray to confirm numbers would be a good idea though. The world record is 24 so nowhere near that ! :)

Smithy,

Because with such a large litter, the chances of the bitch beng unable to deliver and needing a caesarian at some point, are greater due to the womb being overstretched.  In addition, with so many pups,  there is a higher chance of pups getting stuck or interfering with each other's progression.    And that isn't taking into account the nature of the breed and how easily they whelp.

Far better for the bitch and owner to have a planned caesarian as has been pointed out.

It is by no means certain that such a large litter would mean smaller pups,  that is down to genetics.   If the bitch normally has large pups, then these could still be a good size.  

The world's largest litter of 24 was born by CAESARIAN SECTION.     And "in excess of 20 puppies" is a lot closer to 24 than 9 !

Oh goodness, what a nightmare. I hope a suitable foster bitch can be found for some of the pups. Please let us know how it all works out as this is definitely one story I won't be able to forget in a hurry.

Just to say that scans are not accurate.  For one.  Secondly scanning at 5 weeks only says what (might) be going on then.   There are no guarantees that the situation will be the same by full term.   Depending on the breed/size, I'd have to take the advice of my vet - 20 puppies being viable at birth would be highly unusual but not impossible.   I'd not rush into a C.Section incidentally.   I'd leave her to see whether she can get started, at least.   It may well be that at any point, if she becomes exhausted and shuts down, a Section will be necessary.  Lining up a foster mum, for some of them at least, would be a good idea.

OMG!! I do hope things go ok, keep us posted. Perhaps if there's so many and they are mostly born live there might be a bitch somewhere within reach who's lost a litter who could be a surrogate for half of them?

I know a scan is not perfect..but there is no doubt this is a huge litter. Yes she may well lose some before term. I think they will plan an x-ray nearer the due date. I still feel C-sect is the way to go. The breed are not easy whelpers and I once had a GSD (different breed altogether temperament wise ) who had a huge litter, she had one pup at 8 weeks and then went into total inertia. She was just too big and stretched to push. The rest were C-sect and they all survived. The pups were all a good weight too. She was a great Mum. Far better if needed to have an elective C-sect during the day with lots of help available than to have to do an emergency in the middle of the night with an on call vet and nurse. (Not likely to be more staff on call overnight) At least then if they have problems there is more help easily available. If she does carry them all to term she may well whelp early, or she may not have the room to get pushing. The owners are quite experienced and will probably progesterone test for signs of labour starting. They blood tested her prior to mating so know the ovulation day pretty accurately as well.
Its a worry for them. Obviously the bitch is their main concern, her wellbeing is paramount.
They are looking into having foster Mums available and having lots of on call assistance if needed.
If she carries them OK and has a huge litter then the puppy team will get together and help out. OMG just imagine 80 hairy feet and all the Poo !!!! Nightmare !
They would like to hear the experiences of anyone who has dealt with a huge litter.
Aileen

not only for reasons above but physical exhaustion after pushing out soo many and still many more to go. much rather a groggy mother. Eventuality being that the bitch would get tired exhausted and then need a section and have to recover.  xray and section best bet. I really hope (although this is a little faux pas ) its a popular in demand breed. not a dogue de bordeaux or staffy!

the pups may not make it to delivery as they can absorb up to 6 weeks.

In this particular case I'd have her x-rayed at 8 weeks for numbers, with such a large litter she is likely to go early, pups may be smaller so may not be a need for C section.

If she starts on her own, she can be monitored carefully,  and if too slow Oxytocin can be given to move things on, without resorting to C section..

Oh my, hope everything goes ok for this bitch.
My own bitch delivered 14 pups naturally and one at the vet after an oxy jab. (15 in total)
She is from a litter of 17 all delivered naturally with 2 oxy jabs.
Both bitches whelped on day 63.

OMG just imagine 80 hairy feet and all the Poo !!!! Nightmare

I was thinking the same and they are not exactly small - just finding room in the house for them all is mind boggling let alone once they start to move around. Please don't tell me they live in a small house :-)

LOL No they have plenty of room.
Its a very wanted litter involving a very long trip to Sweden.
Aileen

PS The father is well named... Jackpot, he certainly hit it !!

Oh flip. As others have said I would x ray to establish how many at term as some my fail to thrive and be re absorbed. I would then monitor progesterones on approach to due date in order to time C section at optimal time if a very large number of pups evidenced on x ray as I would be concerned about intertia with over 15 pups.
On a plus not a friend has just whelped a litter of 15 without hitch. Bitch feeding the pups with a bit of topping up from the humans 

Aileen .......may I suggest you advise them to keep meticulous financial records regarding ALL their costs, nothing left out at all.
This sort of litter draws great publicity. :-(

I'd second this :-)

I would expect there to be additional costs owing to the costs of either help hand rearing or help via surrogate mums.    The amount of newspapers alone will be astronomical!    

Even account for stamps used, car parking charges, insurance costs re keeping the dogs - everything becomes accountable.

It may be worth consulting an accountant regarding what is required and what is deductable, if the breeder isn't normally self employed, as this number of pups makes it more of a 'business' as far as the taxman is concerned.     An accountant would check and submit everything to the taxman for a small fee (you do all the number and record work)   and this is well worth the money spent - which is deductable anyway - as an accountant seems to carry more weight than joe bloggs.

I hate the media circus that surrounds this kind of litter, especially since most of the media are completely ignorant and tend to make up what they can't make you say (believe me, I've been there )    Unfortunately it can be difficult to avoid bombardment if someone does contact them with the 'news story'

I would think some may well be reabsorbed before birth - I had a bitch scanned for around 15 but she whelped 10 live puppies - panic over...
Perhaps have her xrayed near her due date to try to confirm numbers but I would let her whelp naturally if possible - please keep us informed about how it goes

Wow, I don't know if I could cope with 20 ;-)

How experienced is the vet that did the scanning? Could it be that the same pup(s) were counted more than once?

I'd have her x-rayed nearer whelping time just to see if the numbers are correct.

Not a vet scanning but a very experienced scanner.
They do realise the numbers may not be 100% but it is still a huge litter.
An x-ray will be done at 8 weeks for a better idea of whats to be expected.
Aileen

Just a quick update for you. The bitch has carried fine and is now at 8 weeks and 2 days to 2nd mating. She is HUGE I saw her at 7 weeks and she looked about to pop !! She has been x-rayed and at least 15 pups counted...but.. she is so big it was not possible to get the whole of her in the plate (think 8 stone + and the width of a small ship !!) and that made counting hard, plus the pups are layered and again it made for confusing counting. All is ready for her and she is eating fine still and going for short walks. She seems comfortable and the vets are on standby over the Easter week end. Just a waiting game now. They are hoping she will make a start on her own and are monitoring things very carefully. I will let you know the outcome as soon as I know.
Aileen

Wow, can't wait for the final number, this is going to be a full on experience, plenty of hands needed for this one, most of us are like zombies those first two weeks, think this breeder will have to run on adrenalin.  :-D

I'm keeping fingers crossed and sending happy vibes to both mum to be and owners. Easter symbolises the beginning of new life and this sure does look as though the easter bunny left too many eggs in one basket!

Can't wait to hear final outcome.

Hoping everything goes well for the breeder, the bitch and the pups, and that there aren't too many more surprises :-)

Watching this thread with interest, hope everything goes to plan and mum and pups are all ok! With regards to a caesarean, what I will say, is make sure Vets are kept up to date with litter size etc, as you will need a fair number of staff on hand to be doing the resucitating of the puppies, not all pups come to within the first few minutes, and I have helped with sections where I have had to assist with puppies for 10-15minutes before being happy that they have come to enough to go into the box of towels in the theatre. It can be very stressful when you know there are another 3-4 puppies waiting to come out, knowing theres another 13-14 would be terrifying!

Can't wait to hear!

Following this topic with interest-any update?

The pups were born by C-sect early hours of Sun Morning. 12 live pups doing well. 6 of each ! It was an emergency C-sect and there were more pups but in various stages of decomposition. poss 15+ but hard to tell. She started naturally but after a ?? decomposed early foetus was passed along with the plug nothing else happened. Not enough room for her to get pushing. The pups are all a good weight.  The bitch had a really bad time and haemorrhaged she had an emergency spey to try to stop the bleeding. She went home but 6 hrs later haemorrhaged again. Back to the vet opened up again and re-sutured. She was home last night groggy and sore but her blood count was rising and she is looking much better. She is interested in the pups and has fed them and cleaned in batches of 4. They are taking it slowly with her and supplementing as needed. Hopefully over the next few days as she gains strength they will increase the number of pups she has at one time. 12 is too many for her to cope with at once just now. She is a very lucky girl, her owners are exhausted and emotional but glad the bitch is looking like she has turned a corner now. It's early days but fingers crossed she is over the worst.
A warning to anyone thinking of breeding a litter "For the bitch" or "For the kids to watch" or just "for the money" things can and do go wrong no matter how experienced you are. Breeding is not always plain sailing. This is a litter very carefully planned by experienced breeders who are doing everything properly. When you mate your bitch it could be the start of an amazing  journey, but it can be the start of a nightmare.  Lets hope things go from strength to strength now and  everything settles down. It has been a roller coaster of ups and downs for the owners and they are in need of some enjoyable days watching Mum and pups grow strong and healthy as the days pass.
Aileen

So glad things sound positive and the owners have a manageable amount of pups to rear and home, Aileen, I'm sure all will do better for it (even though 12 quite scary enough!). Fingers crossed the bitch goes from strength to strength now and the owners get to enjoy.

M.

A fairly good outcome taking all the aforementioned into account.
Lucky to still have her and 12 is doable.
Thanks for the update.

Yes and I agree, breeding dogs ( if you love them of course) is not for wimps.

Sending all involved happy vibes and pray everyone goes from strength to strength.

Can the owners, when all is settled and if they feel comfortable,  disclose the total cost of the procedure and time involved? I think its a good idea to make people aware of exactly the types of costs/bills to expect and the stress Involved, especially for those who think its an easy way to make a quick buck.

Very scary experience. I'm glad several pups are alive and fingers crossed the bitch will make a full recovery now. Indeed a sobering story for people thinking it is easy money to breed.

Especially as it also involved the costs of using and overseas stud.

So glad this bitch and her pups are all ok.   

I know exactly the emotional and monetary cost of things going wrong and being lucky to keep a bitch and NO pups :-(     So it's wonderful to hear they have a good healthy litter :-)

Hoping everything continues normally and the owners get the chance to enjoy this litter as they should :-)

Not sure if ppl can remember one of our girls nearlly dieing after having a litter of 9 pups and only 3placenta's came away she had to go for an emergency spay next day she bleed internally that was afew years ago now and cost of her care ( it was  a bank holiday) not much change from 1800 x

Phew!  Goes to show if she had not been in good hands with good owners, she probably would have died here, let's hope she makes a full recovery, she's had a really tough time bless her, good vets by the sound of it too.

12 is plenty enough. :-) Fingers crossed for a nice thriving litter and a well done to the owners who must not know whether to smile or cry at the moment, but sure they will all soon be very joyous with 12 bundles to care for, bet they are gorgeous....... :-)

Been a really interesting thread Merlot, kept us on our seats. ;-)

Goodness I've been watching this thread and then realised who the owner was after their update stating the same.. Really hope the bitch recovers well and the puppies, all of them thrive!!! 

Wow that must have been scary, thank you so much for keeping us posted, I know I've been wondering what was going on! Hope the bitch recovers now and the pups continue to thrive.

Hope the bitch is recovering and starting to enjoy motherhood, and the owners are able to breath a little easier soon, even if sleep is going to be a rare commodity.

Glad to hear the bitch made it through, hope she and the pups continue to do well.

All are now doing well. Thanks for your good wishes.
Aileen