Well 8 weeks have passed and the last 2 of my 10 pups left to-day except the one I am keeping.
First time in a long time we have kept just one as I normally keep 2 to run on but with 5 adults akready I could not do that this time.
Now she is out and about, everyone, including Mum is growling at her when she comes near. She is confident  but don't want her affected. We are spending a lot of time with her to entertain  her as they are not interested and feel a bit sorry for her as it is her first evening/night on her own. MINE  Mine tend to run as a pack and hope she will integrate but anyone else had this. Normally the 2 pups drive me mad squabbling and playing together and stay away from the older dogs.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

I generally find my adults don't grudgingly fully accept the pup until it is 10 - 12 weeks old, even though it was born here.

I am interested in what Brainless says and wonder if many breeders find this?

With mine, as you have suggested, we almost always ran on two, and in fact three from one excellent litter.  As such, and because there's no way I could let a puppy Basset be out with the adults, they had each other's company until big enough, and able to be tolerated by the existing pack.   I did have a singleton bitch who we kept however, and once mum had done with her, I often used to carry her around with me, rather than leave her on her own in the puppy pen.   Very sad.  Has to be said as a result of my attention, she became a spoilt brat!!   Whether I kept both the puppies I ran on (I usually did!) was another matter, so even if I had the intention of only keeping one, I did that, and would have offered the 'reject' for sale as an older puppy.   This would have avoided the solitary puppy thing.

If having this puppy out with the adults is causing disruption, and the potential for actual injury, I'd keep her away from the others until she is older and the others have become more used to at least seeing her around?

>I am interested in what Brainless says and wonder if many breeders find this?

I always keep a pup when I've bred, but have never had a problem with the adults accepting her.    I do ensure that the adults can get away for some peace if they want to, and the pup can't follow.   I have also avoided keeping a bolshy bitch pup, as with one already, I felt it could only lead to trouble later on.

Bedlingtons do seem to enjoy their pups usually and make great play mates - well mine do at any rate :-)

I didn't expect this though.   My  first breeding bitch was very bolshy, and I expected her to be intolerant of puppies and their nonsense.    How wrong I was,   she was the most tolerant bitch  I've ever met, and was a very permissive mum.    When she'd had enough, she'd just go where the pups couldn't follow for a little bit.   They soon learned that  the fun stopped if  they were too rough :-)   

Well 24 hours in and things are slightly better as she is learning not to go near me eldest whose legs are not so good and I think she worries she is going to get hurt. They would not go as far as hurting her I don't think because they have seen puppies before so my worry would be more that it makes her dubious of other dogs. I have been surprised at her Mum as she was brilliant for 5 weeks and thought she would get back to normal with her when just one left.
We are just keeping a watchful eye all the time, feeding her separately and she has various pens as well.

I think I need to qualify.

My adults put up with pups, some grudgingly, but they don't seem to actively include them in their everyday doings until they reach 10 - 12weeks, preferring to largely ignore them (though Mum looks after them).

It is after this age the others will actively include them as they do each other.

So up to 12 weeks I will not leave a pup unattended with the adults and will put them in a puppy pen (in the kitchen with the rest of the dogs) when we go out.

That is what I do. I am able to relax a bit now though, realising the puppy is coping well with being warned off. Fair enough really.

My litters are part of the pack as soon as I start taking them into the garden. Supervised of course, but they learn very quickly which dog to avoid. I find it usually takes a few days for them to be accepted, but longer before they are allowed to play with the older ones. They learn their puppy manners this way. Even the grumpy old man tells them off with a grumble but will let them grab his ears/tail once he realises they aren't going to do serious harm. I think it helped last time that I had a teenage hooligan to play with them :-) He took over the babysitting and mum just watched from a distance.

I find that the older dogs can't believe what they see at first. These horrid little munchkins have taken over the peace and quiet :-) The normal household activities can upset some dogs if it gets changed, which it does with a puppy, and they just object. Once they realise pup is staying they then start the interaction.

What Interests me is, has anyone known a puppy obviously affected by constant telling off?

There is a study that suggests that pups told off in a very assertive manner ("aggressive") by Mum grow up to do the same with other dogs. So if Mum is a very assertive and persistent disciplinarian rather than a laid back anything goes type, the pups will follow suit in adulthood.

Although this is not the same as frequency of discipline, I would think that Mum's behaviour must to a degree shape the pup's behaviour down the line, but to what degree is hard to say. I think the anecdotal evidence of breeders is well worth its weight in gold on questions like this.

I am interested in what Brainless says and wonder if many breeders find this?

It is very interesting how the dynamics of a pack work and also the differences between a single bitch with pups and a pack.

I've found with my girl on her own she is an excellent mother to the pup left, no problems at all tolerant with all puppy play and happy to be around the pup, sleep with him/her etc. 2 pups yes, will integrate mainly with each other.

However, bring in a pack i.e my mothers and brothers dogs and the roles change. The more alpha dogs do not play with a pup and the pup knows not to bother them, but the two lowest ranking bitches and one of the dogs, become nanny's and look after the pup, play and tolerate all manner of puppy play and my girl will take a back seat and allow this, (which I guess is what the alpha would initially do) then when they leave she will revert back to main 'carer'.

I guess if you have a pack where you don't have the 'nanny' dogs and bitches as they are the main carers of pups in a pack, it can be more difficult for a pup to initially integrate even when born there, as we tend to put packs together, we don't always get the right balance of characters and personalities.

It is amazing to watch the body language and see a pup learn fast who it can and cannot play with. :-)

Carrington,

Some really great points.

I think some of this brings us back to to that old chestnut, puppy licence.

Dynamics in the pack at home are one thing, a group we put together somewhat artificially as you say, but out in parks and public I see a huge spectrum of tolerance towards pups..especially where the adult and pup have not met before. In my experience there is a quite a difference in disciplinary styles in dogs and what the pup learns at home with its own Mum does not necessarily mirror what it gets outside from other adult dogs. 

Problem is it is hard for us to always know how the dog perceives the pup, or its own rank in relation to the pup. Many, many have and will disagree with me on this, but for a long time now I have felt that the blanket notion of puppy licence is too simplistic. Nor is it just about well socialised and badly socialised dogs.

I can't remember if you agree with me on this or not but I think it is such a worthwhile debate and worthy of study in future and breeder anecdotal evidence about rearing patterns and behaviours would make a wonderful and rich observational study.

My other interest is howling and how domestic dogs use that...but that is another subject.

In my experience there is a quite a difference in disciplinary styles in dogs and what the pup learns at home with its own Mum does not necessarily mirror what it gets outside from other adult dogs. 

I do agree, when it comes to disciplining a pup from adult dogs there are differing 'styles' my mothers alpha can stop traffic with her cold stare, she has never in her life even had to do a full snarl, she just does that look with a rooted stance and pups just know, (nope not going there :-D ) yet she has never so much as given a nip they just know, body language is very powerful, others will growl do the paw push, the rooted stance, or run away if they do not wish to be on puppy duty.

Dogs outside usually are tolerant and do give that puppy license, but some just aren't....... people with pups should be wary that sometimes dogs do not give puppy license at all, I must admit I have only seen this ever once, unfortunately with one of my friends pups and of all dogs it was with a male Springer, you'd never think of all the breeds..... but that dog on coming across my friends happy 3 month old playful Lab pup actually went after her with intent to harm, it was one of the worst things I'd seen, the pup was scarred through it too, even today aged 9 years, she always looks to her owner when dogs approach and that is after a lot of work done on her. A dam who attacked a pup like that would do untold damage to a pup.

So yes, I would say that a pup could certainly be harmed character wise by an untollerable dam or other dogs actions, some dogs really do not have a maternal instinct or allow that puppy license, but I would say it is rare I really have not seen it, that dogs go above what is a 'normal' telling off for a pup. But, it is something to be aware of. ;-)

>What Interests me is, has anyone known a puppy obviously affected by constant telling off?

No, they learn their place, and I have found since having more than a tolerant Mum around makes for much more confident and dog savvy individuals.

They have learnt that not al dogs re4act the same, and to be more respectful until given permission to 'ply' or 'rough house' with a new chum.

I have had both situations, the older Grannies/Aunts that ignore young pups, tell them off if they get out of line,  and had younger cousins/half sisters who have done the nanny role, which are usually the ones that are still maidens, though have had two very maternal bitches who really wanted to nanny their half siblings/grandchildren.

All my dogs live together so will be mixing with the pups loose from around 4 weeks, but can access them from 3 weeks in their puppy pen..

> What Interests me is, has anyone known a puppy obviously affected by constant telling off?

Difficult to say whether is was caused by lots of telling off but I have a very submissive girl here who did get told off by my older male a lot when she was a puppy. She has always been very worried about other dogs and now still at 5 years old displays a lot of appeasement behaviour to the male. She had puppies of her own last year and the male I kept is a very different kettle of fish. He has loads of confidence and bounces back from any telling off. He also is a bit of a problem because he bullies his mum a lot. he barks at her when he is over exceited and yet she wont tell him off but comes and hides behind me. Now whether this submissive behavious is caused by too much telling off I will never know but I wouldn't let it happen again but would protect a pup from a grumpy adult in future.

To be honest we are now having more problems with the mother than the other dogs now as pup has learned to steer clear a bit but is chasing Mum when she runs away bit she is growling at her at the same time. As it may include some jealousy ( not sure ) I am making sure Mum is getting lots of attention ut in all honesty she seems more fear driven than anything else. The puppy has not lately made attempts to get underneath her. A shame because this has been the only problem in an otherwise virtually perfect situation.
I am keeping a very watchful eye as Mum herself fitted well in the pack but she is definitely underdog which I think did affect her in the ring. Small dogs great but bigger dogs definitely made her very defensive. Not aggressive but she would avoid showing any interest in them which in turn made her eventually not a particularly showy dog.

Fascinating to report that as to-day has progressed Mum has started to "play" with the puppy though I'm a bit worried that the rough play the others indulge in may be a bit too rough. She doesn't seem bothered as she gets up and chases her afterwards. The others are now being quite "good" as perhaps they feel they have told her what for. If I can control Mum a bit better, we may be on the way to progress and this is only 3.5 days.

ut in all honesty she seems more fear driven than anything else

You are right but not for the reasons you think, there is no jealousy here, your girl is running and growling because she does not want those darn razor sharp teeth or nails anywhere near her teats, a lot of bitches do run for their lives at this stage and some well before, as some pups can be very rough, (you've cut those puppy nails haven't you?) some dams are fine and will continue to allow all pups to feed a little until they leave and even continue to allow the pup left to have the odd suckle, depends on the dam. :-)

Yours wants out and has had enough, not unreasonable this is why she is growling and running, best thing is to distract the pup or even pop a t-shirt on your girl until the pup has forgotten, but generally a telling off from the dam is all it takes, perhaps this is what you are misreading and all your girl is trying to get across?  If so it is quite normal behaviour for many dams to do this to get the message across, even if the pup isn't trying to feed, she does not know that, so continues to warn. ;-) 

Also just to add the others may not have been too keen also if this pup is giving the odd nip to their under regions, seen plenty of pups even try to suckle on a male. :-D

my new puppy is very subbmissive to my 7 year male lab he wants nothing to do with her turns his back watches her all the time and just today he cornered her and attacked she was screaming there was no bites lots of growling and snarling i had to pull him off her he takes her toys when she puts them down.He even went in her crate he is so jealous i dont know what to do.

It might better to start your own thread on this problem.

That way more people are likely to answer ;-)