I'm struck  more and more, recently, by the number of people who seem to expect better behaviour from their dogs, than they do from their children.     

The dog is expected to put up with so much, yet, if it so much as growls, then it's a bad dog

Yet even older children, apparently, can't be expected to treat the dog with respect.

Are people  incapable of putting themselves in the dog's place?       Are dogs somehow, more intelligent than their owners, and the owner's children?

When did this change?

I can remember as a child and youngster, that if a child got growled at by the family dog, then the child was reprimanded for not treating the dog right.  These days, it's the dog that gets reprimanded.

It was very rare in those days that adults or children got  bitten.  

Nowadays, it seems to be happening more and more  and  I don't think it's the  dogs who are at fault   :-(

Totally agree, Dill. People are supposed to be the more intelligent species, so it's logical to expect it to be easier for us to adapt our behaviour so as not to put animals into a position where they're forced to complain. A dog is labelled a 'bad dog' if it grumbles when it's unhappy, but a child isn't labelled a 'bad child' when they have a tantrum - we learn to manage the child so that it doesn't get over-stimulated/over-tired and so behaves more calmly. However dogs are increasingly expected to behave less like animals and more like people, whereas children are given more licence to act like animals than people! It's no wonder dogs get confused!

I think the world has gone nuts in recent years. Dogs are expected to be robots and arrive fully trained from the breeder at 8 weeks. I have even had puppy enquiries asking for a fully housetrained 8 week old puppy! I vividly remember an older couple who had been in dogs for years, met them at training classes years ago, telling me about how their kids grew up with dogs. They said that if a child came running saying the dog had bitten them, the child got punished, not the dog! I.e. they knew full well the likelihood was the child had caused the dog to react by inappropriate behaviour.

Shortly after I bought my first Papillon his breeder told me one of his littermates was returned within a week as they could not cope. With a tiny toy dog. (And my pup was certainly VERY easy to train.) And I myself had a kitten returned to me last year within 48 hours as the new owner could not cope with the fact she was running around a lot!!

I agree with all the above but would just like to add - if a dog growls and the owner tells it off, it could well be because the dog owner knows that if the dog takes the next step (ie bites) then it´s the dog who will be killed not the child.

I've been trying to understand what  has changed?     

And why  is it that people have these weird, unreasonable expectations of live animals?

Is it that people these days, can't imagine how another might feel ?    Or that they just aren't interested?

Or are they  just so divorced from reality that they can't connect with it any more?   

Too connected to their electronic devices to take in the reality  of the world around them?

if a dog growls and the owner tells it off, it could well be because the dog owner knows that if the dog takes the next step (ie bites) then it´s the dog who will be killed not the child.

Well that practically guarantees death for the dog! 

Without teaching the child to respect the dog, and at the same time removing the only safe  way the dog has of warning the child they've gone too far,  there can be only one outcome.    THE DOG WILL EVENTUALLY BE FORCED TO BITE  !

Of course, the dog will already have given plenty of warning signs before growling, but most people are far too ignorant of dog behaviour to even see those warnings!

Nowadays, it seems to be happening more and more  and  I don't think it's the  dogs who are at fault

Oh, it's not..... how can it be. :-)

It's not just dogs we often see being treated inappropriately, it's the way children are often raised too, I've noticed a huge difference in both, and personally I think it is the break down of the family unit, there is no-one to teach and guide as there used to be, families often are spread too far apart missing that important, Grandparent, Aunt, Uncle etc, and far too many divorced and separated families it's a knock on effect for many too much is missing in the role of role model and knowledge for everything.

We're all born blank canvasses, schools only teach so much, they don't teach common sense and the years of passed on knowledge many of us learnt all those little things from, when we look back, we learnt soooooo........ much from different family members.

We're all sponges, but today the sponges are often dry, often miffed by what people don't know and understand. It's of no surprise that when it comes to rearing a dog, new owners are just blank canvasses nothing has been put in there and it is a great shock to them.

The way of the world now folks, the way of our modern, yet lacking new world............

When I was wee, if anyone was bitten by a dog, the first question would be " what did you do to make it bite you ?".
It seems to me that expectations of dogs have increased, whilst the expectations of children have decreased.

I also feel people have become so precious about children, that the slightest perceived threat to them, whether real or imagined has taken on an out of proportion element.
Whilst nobody wishes to see anyone severely bitten, the merest nip nowadays, seems to carry the death sentence, in my youth it was par for the course, and once you got a nip, you made damned sure you didn't make that mistake again.
From memory I actually remember NOT telling my mum I'd been bitten for fear of getting a telling off !
How times have changed.

Agree wholeheartedly with all the above posts. As I a child ,I knew that if I told my parents that I'd been punished at school, I knew I'd be in for far worse punishment at home , so I kept quiet. The assumption would be that I deserved the punishment. So different today. Parents' storming' up to the school with threats and worse should any teacher dare to discipline their 'perfect' children. I received quite a few nips from dogs before I learned to approach dogs with respect and caution.It was considered part of lessons for life.
Seems the Kennel Club are in tune with the zeitgeist. Breeders criticised for not instructing new owners on correct procedure when applying collar and lead etc. What happened to common sense and self reliance !

teaching the child to respect the dog,

If your going to put out statements such as that then I think you (@ others) should at LEAST explain to everyone else on the board how on earth do we go up to strangers in the streets or parks who have a kid(s) with them, who probably have nothing whatsoever to do with, >or interest in<, dogs and then start to lecture to them how their child should never approach a strange dog >which so often happens<.

Then you & your group should join some kind of parents and child forums and start the lecture process there.

Hands up those who think my post is not a sensible post.
.

*hand up*

Dill was clearly referring to parents teaching their own children to respect the family dog. When they do that the children can quite easily generalise the respect to 'strange' dogs.

It's when people approach your dog in an inappropriate manner that is the time to educate them, not for us to approach random strangers!

Hands up!

Here here Jean.

And I do teach manners to other people's children when they try to approach my dogs in the wrong way.    Occasionally I get attacked for it - little jonny or susie should be allowed to rush up and throw themselves on any dog they like, according to many parents and grandparents.    These little children are also the ones who appear to be alone in a busy market/town and the parents/grandparents appear well after the child could have been eaten by a dog, or spirited away by abductors.    But any badness happening to the child is everyone elses fault!

Hethspaw

You seem unable to understand basic english.   

Since you brought up the challenge of teaching others manners,  you could do with learning some  yourself.  I believe your main purpose on this board is to wind people up.     Most of your posts seem to deliberately misunderstand other posters, or to cause offence.   Just MY observation of course.

> It's not just dogs we often see being treated inappropriately, it's the way children are often raised too

What I find strange is that reins for little kids seem to be a thing of the past. My boys both had reins and when old enough to not have them, they had to hold my hand unless is was safe and of no inconveinience to others for them to run around. It makes me cringe to see people walking along roads/streams with their little kids either way infront of them or way behind them, yet these sort of parents always seem to be the ones that hold everybody else responsible for their childs safety.

I must disagree with the breakdown of family unit being responsible for parenting differences. I was raised by a single parent (disabled dad), but common sense, respect for others and responsibility for ones own actions were all part of his parenting syllabus :)

Sadly I think it's more of the way society has become a suing culture - it's always somebody elses fault and it's always sombody elses responsibiity to teach their kids x y or z :(

hands up

todays society seems to be rearing children to be able to do what ever they want to - a generation of brats! My dogs are big fluffy bears and to be honest I dread meeting families with young children when we are out as the parents often encourage the children to rush up and cuddle the dogs. Fortunately both dogs are gentle giants, but that doesn't give anyone the right to take liberties with them without asking first, but the attitude it that if their little princess wants to hug (half choke) the big doggie then who the hell am I to object.

Hands up

And ditto Jeangenie comments.

I think it is a toxic mix of rampant consumerism- I want it and I want it now; urbanization and lack of knowledge of/ attachment to animal world; increasingly risk averse mindset/control freakery; fanatical parents who instil fear of/dislike of dogs into their children from an early age.

I'm just remembering illustrations in children's books that routinely showed terriers ragging people's trousers. If a youngster got bitten it was considered unfortunate but not an automatic reason to put a dog down, however we are talking inhibited bites where perhaps the dog's tail was trodden on and it reacted, not full on attacks.

General reply but various things spring to mind here.  First of all I am lucky enough not to have to deal with children too often so I say most of this as an observer.

1 - children are always in the right these days, I was brought up that if a dog bit me or a horse kicked or whatever it would be in response to something I had done.  And if it was an unfamiliar animal I would be asked what I was doing going near it in the first place.  Also, I was not allowed to roam wild and as a rule I would have been supervised and any behaviour likely to result in these sort of issues was prevented before it ocurred, usually with an explaination why it was not a good idea.

2 - children (and adults for that matter) are not educated about appropriate behaviour around animals, too many are jumpy and snatching hands up when all a dog wants to do is sniff, then you have the ones who scream and squeal and the like.  People just do not seem to know how to be quiet and behave with animals.  As a country there are a lot of pets out there, even in city centres people have dogs, cats or small pets and police horses at the very least are seen around.  It should be some part of primary education how to read animals and how to react appropriately in my opinion.

3 - People flitting from one fad to the next, throwing away what they no longer want in life as a whole has transferred itself to the animal world, people want a xxx puppy so they have a check on gumtree and the like and by the following weekend they have the puppy with no knowledge of the breed, no understanding of dogs and no real comprehension of what is ahead of them.  So you have the demand for not necessarily well bred dogs being met by people who are not going to have well trained dogs either...

4 - People are really irrational about pets and livestock.  These are animals that have been domesticated for hundreds (in some cases thousands) of years.  So walking past a dog on a lead really does not merit the sorts of reactions I see at times, people shrinking away in terror, crossing the road and the like.  Or the kids who crowd around and ask "do they bite" as I walk past with my dogs, all on leads, tails wagging, four feet on the floor, none doing more than sniffing at any passersby - clearly these kids have no notion of how a dog acts before it might contemplate biting.  None of this is a normal reaction to a dog.

As a final observation, it has come to my attention in my dealings with other people's children, dogs, horses and occasionally cats, that "Oi, pack it in!", "Off", along with "Quit it" and "Enough" seems to be universally applicable and gets a rapid response as long as the tone of voice is the same every time.

> I'm struck more and more, recently, by the number of people who seem to expect better behaviour from their dogs, than they do from their children.

This is not my experience.  However when I read this forum I do wonder...        Perhaps we get a slanted view based on those that post?

As a city dweller I find the observation to be very accurate. People seem to have bizarre expectations of dogs and I think it is the result of being increasingly innured from the natural world. I've seen complaints on local forums by young professionals objecting to birds tweeting too early because it interfered with their sleep! On the flip side you get those who treat their dogs like children...

When you go into a department store it seems that parents just allow their children to pick up and touch and investigate everything that is within reach, when I was a child I was never allowed to touch anything in a shop with the threat of goodness knows what should I ever be tempted to 'just touch'.
It is the same way with animals, children seem to think they are allowed to touch and cuddle any dog they see with no parental guidance yet again. Of course it will be the dogs fault should it snap at the little fingers poking its eyes, ears or mouth, and hugging in a strangle hold its neck while the parent stand and watch.

Many parents have a lot to answer to.

I too have big bears who look nice and cuddly, it is a constant case of other peoples kids rushing in to throw their arms around them. Now my girls are pretty stoic about it all but I really gets me annoyed. I have given up talking to parents and now just remove (Gently) the child and offer a short  educational chat about how to behave. I find most kids will back off then. The other ones who scream and wave hands about in the girls faces are ignored and we just walk swiftly past...
I grew up in the county and we had a collie who was happy to be a playmate when not working, but he was also quick to nip if Brother and I pushed the boundaries so we learnt not to take advantage as Mum or Dad would just say, it was our own fault.
We grew up to be accepting of the fact that we were responsible for our own actions. I could not tell you how many times I have been head butted by a sheep or had a swift kick sent my way from a cow. It was all part of the learning circle when I was a child. I spent my week ends at a local stud and learnt horses have weapons both ends.
These days children are very ignorant of animals. Those who are true county children and come from families who have always been in the country are much better than those who have chosen to live there but are townies really and town kids seem to think they are allowed to do whatever they like.
The amount of people, especially teenagers, who visit the emergency department I work in with a "I am God" attitude is unbelievable. They think that the staff are there to be abused verbally or in some cases physically. This is a measure of how bad the attitude of our society has become.
I can only be grateful I grew up in an age when family and society values were of good standard.
But this behaviour has to come from somewhere. I am pleased to say my oldest Daughter (She was brought up solely by me) and her children are polite and well behaved, the youngest daughter and hers are not so good ( Youngest daughter spent her teenage years with her Dad not me). But they are not monsters, and they have dogs cats horses etc. and are at least animal savvy ! They have different fathers so is it genetic or environmental ??
Aileen

I was taught from a very young age that if I sat on the sofa quietly and the dog approached me I was allowed to stroke it, if they moved away than they'd decide that was enough and I was not allowed to follow. If I ever dared bother or follow the dogs I was told off. It's a concept which my own children will be made well aware of.

Not about dogs but a great article that should be read by parents who believe the world revolves around their children http://umbrelr.com/young-mother-giving-kids-dont-blame/

Harley that is very very good. That's a Mum who knows the true meaning of Mothering.
Aileen

Wow.  Really insightful.