I'm after some advice for a lady I know who has a child at school the same as mine , she bought a pup about a year ago advertised as a SBT, which is what she wanted. However he has grown much bigger. She has now started to panic as the pet shop where she saw the puppies advertised on a notice board, the person working in there has just told her that they found out the litter were actually pit bulls. In my opinion looking at the dog it is not a pure pitbull.
She is frightened that the police may seize her dog.
Does anyone know if this can happen if there have been no incidents. The dog has been brought up well, in a loving environment and has a lovely nature, she is thinking of muzzling him when he is out incase she gets into trouble. He is always lead walked anyway , along with her two old cross breeds. I really feel for her as she honestly thought she had bought a pedigree SBT, and loves this dog so much it would break the families hearts if he was taken away.
Any advice will be very much appreciated.

Might be safest to call Trevor Cooper, but unfortunately all that matters is that the dog is deemed to be "of the type" (which will include crosses) and it doesn't matter the slightest whether it has done anything or not.  Just muzzling won't be enough either as the law requires registration (I believe they have to apply to a court for this, but have no idea how -Trevor Cooper will know), muzzling, neutering, microchipping, third party insurance etc. Also must never be walked offlead, never walked by anyone aged under 16 and can never be sold or given away.

Found some info here -sounds a bit complicated as it says you cannot voluntarily register the dog:
http://www.doglaw.co.uk/pitbull.php

You can do dna testing but how accurate and how much use it is is debateable. In her position I would ring Trevor cooper of dog law. He is excellent and will give good sound advice

looks like we posted at the same time Goldimali I am pleased you gave similar advice at least I know I am not talking rubbish. They are not making it easy for people to comply are they ?

I think it would be a good idea if she also gets in touch with DDA Watch (http://www.ddawatch.co.uk), they deal with cases of dogs being reported and seized all the time and can advise her on what might happen in that situation - both the process that should happen, and the process that often actually happens (bullying or intimidation from the police to get people to sign the dog over when they don't have to).  Best thing she can do is be aware and prepared.

>she honestly thought she had bought a pedigree SBT,

The only way to be able to prove this would be to only buy one that has Kennel club registration, as that would give some evidence as to what eh is supposed to be.

Unfortunately any SBT, or cross without papers could easily be labelled type, and sadly the onus is on the owner to prove it isn't a Pitbull ([papers to say it's a SBT).it's the owners.

As for the exempted register, seems ludicrous, if it's indeed the case,  that the owner can't volunteer to place their dog on it????

I agree Trevor Cooper is the man to contact immediately.

From what I can remember the registration of PB's was prior to the law changing for existing dogs already here, after that date not sure if you are allowed to keep them and if known of they are taken and destroyed. (Hope I am wrong)

The dog has been brought up well, in a loving environment and has a lovely nature, loves this dog so much it would break the families hearts if he was taken away.

I couldn't cope with a dog I loved being taken away for doing no wrong, really, really feel for this lady and her family, l'd be in tears.

After talking to T.C. she has a problem if the pet shop owner now knows for sure these pups were Pitbulls really and legally she is supposed to report it as they are accomplices in suppling a banned breed, they should be prosecuted for this too, no-one should ever.... please listen GP buy any dog without those KC papers, or advertise them without proof which of course is the KC registration. If this goes badly your friend should sue the pet shop, not only for faulse advertising, but the heartache caused to her and her family, it is tragic.

Myself, if I were in this position and I knew the dog was no harm to man nor beast I'd keep very schtum about it, and pass the dog off as a Staffie cross, (many look like Pitbulls especially if crossed with Boxers etc) I hope she has not told anyone else, I would also be talking to the pet shop owner about whether she just 'thinks' they are Pitbulls or knows for sure who the parents were? As how can she now know, but didn't before? Is she guessing because they have not turned out the right size or shape, if so she is awful to worry your friend, myself I would guesstimate she is only guessing as seems strange, maybe talk of suing will make her admit that. ;-)

It's a difficult balance to make the right call especially if they are PB's and the rest of the litter did not make it to such good homes as your friends.

I just feel for your friend and would not tell anyone, that way it will only come to light if someone reports it. :-(

The only way to be able to prove this would be to only buy one that has Kennel club registration, as that would give some evidence as to what eh is supposed to be.

Alas a KC registered Staffy has been prosecuted as a Pit Bull in the past, as it was oversized.

You've been given good advice Cani1 - best get your friend moving ASP, if the dog gets pulled by the police first the dog is in  serious danger.
.

but surely they won, as they had evidence that it was not?

but surely they won, as they had evidence that it was not?

What evidence? a written KC pedigree is not evidence in a criminal case!

I hate to have keep pointing to Europe, BUT, many breeds pups are a) microchiped & DNA sampled for lineage before they are registered.

Below is a tiny fraction of some of the requirments including all pups must have...some of the German mandatory tests pasted below - Austria & Italy have been doing mandatory DNA testing for their Dobes since at least 2006, all KC does is take the registration fee£££'s & dish out a bit of paper, below, a fragment of the mandatory requirements to register a pup with Dobermann club Munich.

G.) Identification of the puppies / Chip:

1 The marking with a chip is mandatory and part of this DV-ZO.

2 The entire litter (Ammenwelpen included) is from the vet with a chip number before
To indicate final acceptance of the litter. A written confirmation of the Chipen is from the vet
the union message attached. Thus, the identity of the puppies that come for registration in the COBA ensures the breed warden has the chip no. Check with each puppy and in the
Litter Registration Form Register / glue. The chip number is entered in all relevant documents.

3 If a check - no matter for what reasons - not be possible, this is the stud book
reported. The dog must be microchipped again by the vet and identified by a unique
Blood sample for DNA analysis are taken. The DNA analysis must in the
Hauptzuchtwart be performed particular clinic. The cost of Chipens, blood sampling
and DNA analysis to the owner of the dog.

H.) DNA detection:
The breed warden takes on the final inspection of the entire litter each puppy a blood test for a
DNA registry. The costs are charged to the breeder with the pedigrees. For the correct
Sample collection, the correct assignment of the chip number and shipping of samples is the Zuchtwart responsible. If anything is unclear or incorrect assignment of all costs incurred fall each Zuchtwart to.
.

A birth certificate is proof of identify in the UK, yet there is no actual DNA proof of parentage required, it's taken on trust in both cases.

but surely they won, as they had evidence that it was not?

No, because the court determined that an oversized Staffy is of the type that can be referred to as a PitBull. It's the word TYPE all along that is causing problems.

> A birth certificate is proof of identify in the UK, yet there is no actual DNA proof of parentage required

DNA testing of parentage would never be brought in. It would open too many cans of worms. KC registration may be taken on trust when buying a pup but it proves nothing in a court of law when trying to prove your dog is not a pitbull.

From what I read up when doing the act in college a few years ago no an owner can not apply to have the dog put on the exempt list, only a judge can put one on it, however to get to that point the dog must be taken from the owner and accessed. If it ticks enough boxes on what a pitbull type looks like (so it doesn't habe to meet the standard they use completely just has to be close enough) the dog is not returned, if it's not type it's returned. If found to be type the owner can be done for owning a banned breed and they can then go to court to fight for the dog (I'm sure they must pay court fees but can't rember). The owner must prove the dog is not dangerous (normaly using a behaviourist saying it's not aggressive if I rember right and any past problems will be looked at, as well as the owners suitability to own it I think). If they fail to convince the judge or can't or don't want to go to court the dog is putdown. If they win they get the dog back once it is neutered, chipped and the owner gets insurance for 3rd party liability (the hardest part from what I had read as most companies shot touch a pitbull). The dog must then at all times in public be on lead and muzzled. If the owner breaks any of the conditions the dog can be taken away and put down.
Don't know if any of it has change since I read up about it or not. If only they would let people like this apply and have their dog accessed in there home more might come forward and habe there dogs checked out but many are too afraid to and live in hope no one reports them just incase.

I'd defernatly take the advice to contact Trevor Cooper and DDA watch for advice.

I'd defernatly take the advice to contact Trevor Cooper and DDA watch for advice.

I am no expert on APBT's but over the years I from many different sources I have noticed nothing but very good things about Trevor Cooper, he seems 'the' man to get in touch with ASP
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I am no expert on APBT's but over the years & from many different sources I have noticed nothing but very good things about Trevor Cooper, he seems 'the' man to get in touch with ASP

Yes he seem very well respected inthe dog community, I've Hurd many people singing his praises and not herd a bad word about him. Never needed leagle help myself luckerly.

> Yes he seem very well respected inthe dog community, I've Hurd many people singing his praises and not herd a bad word about him. Never needed leagle help myself luckerly.

If he's ever doing a Doglaw seminar near you - GO!!! :)
You won't realise how useful and informative (and entertaining) it will be until you've been.

DDA Watch are also very experienced especially in connection with BSL and "Type" dogs - it was started by another solicitor Ally Green and specialises in the DDA.

Can anyone go to the seminars then MsTemeraire?
Maby one day in the future would be interesting to lurn more, especially as to what counts as dangerously out of control under the dda.

> Can anyone go to the seminars then MsTemeraire?

Yes they can - he runs two types, one for just anyone, and one for Professionals (longer and more expensive). Attending a seminar can give you credit if you're studying for KCAI, and also I believe a vet/vet nurse or a student studying a relevant subject. One (of his ordinary kind) was held in the next town to me in February, so I went along, most of the other attendees were vets/vet nurses, local trainers and a dog warden.

Thank you everyone for your advice, I will pass it all on to her. I too have never heard a bad word about Trevor Cooper and would definitely be booking a place to his seminar if he comes to an area local to me :)

I'd also recommend Trevor Cooper and DDA Watch.
Hopefully she doesn't live in the Merseyside area, they have by far the worst track record where seizing dogs are concerned, from dogs receiving wounds whilst in their care, to dogs being " mistakenly " pts.

>I'd also recommend Trevor Cooper and DDA Watch.

I will always support DDA Watch and Ally Green. She started off as a general forum for any advice under DDA laws and was incredibly helpful to me when I had an issue under Sec. 3.  She later disbanded the forum and devoted her time and efforts to advising specifically on BSL (Sec1, Type dogs) and is the first port of call I would recommend for anyone with issues relating to Type, Pit Bulls, and the system as it stands.

A birth certificate is proof of identify in the UK, yet there is no actual DNA proof of parentage required, it's taken on trust in both cases

C'mon Barbara, behave yourself, the laws for PTS of some humans by burning at the stake were repealed several years ago!
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Celli, we live in Northumberland, I don't know what the record is like here for seizing dogs.

I see dogs all the time that with a little imagination could well come into the "Type" bracket. There is a lovely boxer cross we often walk with who is a prime example. I doubt the owners have ever given it a thought. We could spend our lives worrying. A chat with one of the dog law experts may help to put her mind at rest so if the worst happened she would be forewarned but if I were her I would continue as normal.
Life for a dog is short enough without restricting him "Just in case"
Does she have his KC REG ? If he was just a pup bred by a BYB and has no reg then she could contact the breeder to ask if he is in fact pure bred or a cross. It may make no difference at all but once again this is a good reason especially if you want one of the bull breeds to go to a reputable show breeder so you know your much loved pet is exactly what you wanted and looks like his breed.

Aileen

I personally think it will depend on the area, as to what could potentially happen, if your friend lives in a quiet area, where there isn't much in the way of problems with status dogs, then she will probably never hear a peep from anyone.
My now departed boy Spud could have been easily mistaken for a PB, despite coming from show lines, Spud was enormous, I never had a moments bother, but I live rurally where there isn't a problem with status dogs.

According to that programme last week, she can keep a 'pitbull type' whatever he actually is, as long as she has insurance, has him listed, and muzzles him in public. I'm sure Trevor Cooper can advise on how to do this. :-)

Lucy we found earlier the only way to register a PB type on the exempted register is if it has been seized by the police. So you have to be in trouble FIRST.

Oh dear, that wasn't made clear in the programme (or I snoozed through that bit!). That's a bit stupid, doesn't make any allowances for someone buying a dog which grows into that type, which as others have said can easily happen with a Staffie or Boxer cross!

> That's a bit stupid, doesn't make any allowances for someone buying a dog which grows into that type,

True, but I agree with the law as these dogs should not be being bred. Therefore owning one should be a criminal offence. Yes, it is a shame for the unwitting buyer, but no different from the person who buys stolen goods in a pub. They should have put more thought and effort into getting their dog, ignorance of the law after all is never an excuse.

In my opinion if we simply allowed people to register them and keep them then the situation isn't going to get better. The procedure as it stands is arduous and stressful, if it happens to one person and they tell all their friends it may stop another buying that type of dog.

I think the law is actually fine as it stands it just needs to be enforced more!

I don't think the law is fine at all - how many totally innocent dogs of known crosses have been seized and PTS simply because they looked 'type'?  It's horrendous.  Boxer crosses, staffy crosses, AMBulls, all sorts.  Not long ago I heard of a poorly bred labrador being PTS because the inspecting bod thought he looked type.  It's insane.

It's so well known now that it's all about upbringing and training methods, not breed, that it really is time BSL was gotten rid of.  It's caused so much unnecessary heartache and suffering.

how many totally innocent dogs of known crosses have been seized and PTS simply because they looked 'type'? 

Since the amendment to the DDA, not many. The amendment did after all solve that problem. The dog would either have to be a stray (like in the TV programme recently) or fail its temperament test, or have an owner refusing to neuter, register etc. Anyone innocently caught up has every chance to keep their dog these days if they comply with the law and the dog is proven to be of good character.

I agree with Chaumsong on this one.

But in this person's case she has a dog of good temperament and has to live in fear of him being seized and perhaps his character changing as a result, as there is no option to be responsible and say 'I made a mistake buying this dog I thought was a Staffie and now he has turned out to be of pit bull type', she just has to hope nobody every reports her.

> True, but I agree with the law as these dogs should not be being bred. Therefore owning one should be a criminal offence.
>

Pitbulls should not be bred but I dont see why we need a law that says we should not breed dogs which look a certain way no matter what their temperament is like.

>Yes, it is a shame for the unwitting buyer, but no different from the person who buys stolen goods in a pub. They should have put more thought and effort into getting their dog, ignorance of the law after all is never an excuse.

Apart from the person in this thread who bought what she believed was a staffy What about other people whose much loved crossbred pup grows to look like a pitbull? You can say they should take more care but you dont know what a pup will look like when it grows up. and again why do we need a law aimed at looks? Temperament and training are what cause the problems. Not the shape of the jaw or the width of the muzzle!

It's so well known now that it's all about upbringing and training methods,

It is most certaily not "all about just those things", they are important things but there are ample other variables involved & no 2 dogs can ever be braught up in exactly the same way, even in the same houshold.
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Can anyone explain to me what part of the human concepts of 'leasure & pleasureable times' is supposed to fit into keeping one of these dogs or for that matter a look alike.

They sound more like something only a devout emotional & lifestyle masochist would own, out all the other dog types available.
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> What about other people whose much loved crossbred pup grows to look like a pitbull? You can say they should take more care but you dont know what a pup will look like when it grows up

You have a pretty good idea if you buy a pedigree and do your research, like I say it's all about putting time and effort into acquiring a dog.

> It's so well known now that it's all about upbringing and training methods, not breed

I disagree. Of course any breed of dog is capable of biting, any poorly bred or poorly brought up dog that has had bad experiences may bite but few breeds are capable of actually killing a human.

It is a fact that a strong dog with great bite power and more importantly tenacity is a far greater worry when you get a 'bad one'.

This report is american but clearly shows the worry...

Study highlights
The combination of molosser breeds, including pit bulls inflict:

81% of attacks that induce bodily harm
76% of attacks to children
87% of attack to adults
72% of attacks that result in fatalities
81% that result in maiming
Embody 9.2%+ of the total dog population

Pitbulls alone were responsible for 283 human deaths in the USA (since 1985). I think we are right to ban them here, but that ban needs to be enforced and policed.

In the last 9 years alone 283 people have died from dog attacks in the States, 176 of them were killed by pitbulls.

What about other people whose much loved crossbred pup grows to look like a pitbull?

If some people don't even know what breed of dog they own I dont think they should have any pet animal.
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I disagree. Of course any breed of dog is capable of biting, any poorly bred or poorly brought up dog that has had bad experiences may bite but few breeds are capable of actually killing a human.

Exactly. It really annoys me when people say it doesn't matter if it is a Chihuahua biting, it could still kill a newborn baby. Maybe so, but it certainly could not kill an older child or an adult human. Sure, there are other breeds also strong enough to kill (and that have killed), but the difference here is that the UK has NEVER had such a thing as a RESPONSIBLE breeder of Pit Bulls. The breed has never been KC recognised, indeed it isn't in most countries, and it has mainly been bred for all the WRONG reasons. It simply isn't possible to go out and find a GOOD breeder of them. Never was. As for the other banned breeds, two of them did not exist in the UK at all and the third had just ONE single example, so it was no big problem putting a stop to them as nobody suffered because of it. There were certainly a LOT of demands for Rottweilers being banned back in the 80s, but it was recognised that here was a world wide recognised and very well established breed where GOOD breeders and great dogs easily outnumber the bad.

What about other people whose much loved crossbred pup grows to look like a pitbull?

If some people don't even know WTF breed of dog they own I dont think they should have any pet animal.

I think that´s a very unfair statement.  Not everyone wants a pedigree dog.  Plenty of people are happy to have a mongrel or crossbreed.  Many dogs in rescue centres are described as "x"-crosses.  What the cross is no-one seems to know or even try to guess.  As for not having any animal just because they can´t list all the breeds their pet dog is descendant from, well that´s a stupid comment to make.  Just because a person isn´t particularly au fait with all breeds of dog doesn´t mean they can´t make an excellent owner of some other pet.

Not everyone wants a pedigree dog

Yes I know, but, I was only refering to dogs which are supposed to be a pedigree & are visualy identifiable as such.
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As for not having any animal just because they can´t list all the breeds their pet dog is descendant from, well that´s a stupid comment to make.

Thats not a comment I made.
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> Thats not a comment I made.

It's precisely what you implied though, with your WTF comment.

>If he's ever doing a Doglaw seminar near you - GO!!!

Trevor Cooper Seminars: HERE

If you are lucky enough to go to any of the above seminars, then please let us know what you find out :)

UPDATE :

I gave this lady all the advice and I think she will of checked it all out as she was very happy I had all this info for her. I don't see her now as I take my daughter to a different school now, however she has contacted my sister ( who she also knows )  yesterday to tell her the police called at her house to say they had a report that she had a Pit Bull, she invited them in to see how lovely he is and the police agreed he shouldn't be a problem but advised to keep him muzzled when out walking and always on lead ( which she does ) and to have him castrated ASAP. She agreed and told them how she come about buying him and the truth about finding out he was likely to be a pit bull after the lady in the pet shop told her earlier this year.

TODAY: Police arrived this morning and seized the dog, she has since been told to await news on whether he has been euthanized. I told my sister  for her to get back onto Trevor Cooper quickly! I'm so mad about this I do hope this poor dog can be saved and reunited with his loving family. :(

Oh this makes me so sad :( DDA Watch and Trevor Cooper are the best ports of call as you already know, how sad for the lady :(

The only way to be able to prove this would be to only buy one that has Kennel club registration, as that would give some evidence as to what eh is supposed to be.

Thats not legal proof, all a KC pedigree 'can' prove is if the names of the dogs on it were KC registered at some point in time, it does not even prove they are the parents, only the DNA samples can prove that.

DNA sampling is a standard mandatory part of a dogs registration as a pedigree dog process all over mainland Europe.

From P3 German Doberman Club - breeding regulations

H.) DNA detection:
The breed warden takes on the final inspection of the entire litter each puppy a blood test for a
DNA registry. The costs are charged to the breeder with the pedigrees. For the correct
Sample collection, the correct assignment of the chip number and shipping of samples is the Zuchtwart responsible. If anything is unclear or incorrect assignment of all costs incurred fall each Zuchtwart to.

Breeding Regulations
http://tinyurl.com/notza66
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Cani1, the owner just signed her dogs death warrant, what a silly silly woman,

She agreed and told them how she come about buying him and the truth about finding out he was likely to be a pit bull after the lady in the pet shop told her earlier this year.


What did she think the police would do, just sit on information like that, not forward it? They were acting on the dog possibly being a pitbull, she more or less told them he definitely was..... silly woman, the breed is banned now, the law is the law, there is no differentiating between thug owned dog and much loved pet owned, they have no choice but to destroy the dog, there is no point in anyone being mad, the police are obeying the law, the owner allowed her mouth to run away with her, a nice well balanced dog will no doubt have to be destroyed, Trevor Cooper can no longer help here IMO.

Her only recompense, which is now only money, is to sue the pet shop for selling her a Pitbull, but tbh what is that worth, to losing a much loved dog.

This story is so sad........ but the lady was too honest with the police if she wanted to save her dog, poor, poor dog. :-(

The law is the law - Pitbulls are a banned breed