Hi all - I have a 3 year old Golden male. We decided we didn't want to neuter him, after reading the recent studies about health of GR's and reports of nervous dogs becoming more fearful.

But recently his behaviour is becoming more unmanageable, he's marking more, sniffing incessantly on walks, lunging to every verge/lampost, licking urine, not listening to us outside if there's more important things to sniff, etc etc. We're constantly using training techniques but he decides if and when we're interesting enough or if there's a smell or other dog over on the horizon.

Thinking Tardak might be the way to go as a halfway-house sort of thing...a way to test if it helps these behaviours, but without the longevity of both neutering or even Superlornin (1 month rather than 6).

Thing is, I've heard about dogs never being the same again even after it has worn off. Has anyone experience of Tardak and if it might help in this situation?

I know nothing can fix his training issues that we're working on, or give a definite picture of how he is likely to be if castrated, but at the moment it's better than not doing anything.

Thanks

To me it sounds like you have a btich in season in the neighbourhood, so his behaviour may well change in near future anyway.

I did use Tardak (and it was on a Golden) years ago and it made no difference whatsoever. I don't think you get a true picture at all of what the dog would act like if castrated by using Tardak -after all it does not even make them infertile, whereas Suprelorin does give you a much better picture. I used Suprelorin on a badly nervous aggressive Malinois a few years ago and it did not make his behaviour worse so after the 6 months we went ahead and had him castrated.

There is nothing to say though that any behaviour would change whether it is with the help of Tardak, Suprelorin or castration. Certainly my male neutered dogs are still just as interested in bitches in season, and my 10 year old Golden who was neutered aged 3 does indeed mate and tie with in season bitches given half a chance and he will also mark indoors when anyone is in season. The same goes for my neutered Malinois, Cavalier and Papillon.

Thanks for your reply and experiences, glad to hear it helped your Malinois...did it have the effect you wanted?

He has been like this for about a year, so doubt it's a recent bitch in season... we're finally a bit fed up with it and looking for a solution (also it is getting worse). He's even licking and drooling in the garden where no bitches have been!

He has no interest in humping other dogs (only his bedding!), marking indoors, or other macho things. He's very submissive to other dogs, lays down on the ground with head on the floor if we're meeting on a single path. And submissive to strangers (wriggles in a down position when he's getting a fuss). Which is why I'm somewhat reluctant to remove his testosterone and make him even more submissive.

Should I just bite the bullet and try something? Has anyone else tried either options?

I agree I would not have him neutered, or anything that altered the testosterone levels.

I maybe wrong, but I think the only reason Marianne went ahead with neutering her boy after the Suprelorin, is she definitely didn't want him breeding and with entire bitches in the household one less entire male would make life less fraught.

Only training will be likely alter your boys behaviour, or not.  Otherwise you'll just have to accept that he's a sniffy dog, in the same was as those of us with very foody dogs have to accept that unless we supervise they will steal food given the opportunity.

My year old Bernese bitch is a real sniffer.. She has to spend ages on every sniffy bit. I find nothing but reward based training has any effect on her. So when she gets her head down on a real goodie I walk to the end of the lead stop and treat if she comes immediately. We are slowly getting there but its taking time. If she ignores me I give her a tug and walk on. Her mother is equally fed up with her and stands looking at me with a "Not again" look !! but she feels obliged to be included in the treat hand-out !
Aileen

Yes Barbara is correct, I only castrated this Malinois male to ensure he could never sire pups as his temperament is poor and must not be passed on, and it made life so much easier to not have to separate him from bitches in season frequently. In fact it is the only reason I'd ever neuter any dog -making them infertile- as it is the only thing you can be certain of being the result.

Ok so we don't think chemicals or neutering will help his sniffing/licking/general ignorance? I have lots of treats on me on a walk, roast chicken, ham, biscuits, and I try and tug him onwards when he's lunged to the verge or is licking the grass, but he's on a head collar and is starting to resist ( I don't want to make it an unpleasant thing). Often he won't even look up for a treat when he's walking nicely to reward him, or won't  take a treat when there's smells on his mind.

Couldn't ask for a better temperament, or a friendlier dog with absolutely everyone. Could trust him anywhere. But the other behaviours are getting a bit wearing. He has no recall (unless it suits him). I wonder that every other dog I know is trusted off-lead, but they're neutered. Would he would be happier and more responsive if he didn't have the hormones. Is Tardak not seen as an easy way to test if he'll be better?

My understanding is that tardak is the addition of progesterone rather than the removal of testosterone. I've previously read that in a lot of cases it's as good as injecting water for behavioural stuff. I would be really reluctant to neuter a happy, friendly dog with mild problems with his manners. He's 3 years old so not beyond training, stick him on a long line and teach him what's acceptable recall wise :) Are you sure his sniffing is sexual and not him being a gundog that wants to hunt? Just surprised he displays no other sexual signs than intense sniffing. What treats are you using? Does he like a toy? My HPR breed took a LOT of recall training but training works, even though he's a megahunter and very highly sexed. Much easier when they will play or eat though which is why I wonder what you can offer that he gets a kick out of. Dare I say I may even make him skip a meal and take dried liver, hot dogs etc out to do recall training. And I would train on food circuits to up the drive. My boy is ball oriented not food so I would call him back for big games of tug and let him go again or call and throw the ball the opposite way also to create drive.

Your boy sounds really lovely, I personally wouldn't be going down the 'medical' route just yet.

I have a neutered Golden who will be 9 this year - had no choice in the neutering as it was part of the rehoming policy when we got him. He will follow scents all the time when off lead but does walk nicely on a lead. He has an amazing sense of smell far more than any other dog I have owned and can sniff things from miles off. There isn't a week that goes by when he doesn't find a ball on our walks - lost by some other dog or child and I have a huge collection of tennis balls in the back of my car all found by Harley. He finds them in the woods, fields, on the hills and at the beach. He suddenly dives off into the undergrowth and emerges with a ball - two brand new footballs were found in the woods and no idea how they had got there as we were miles off the beaten track but he emerged from a bramble bush with one and found the other one next to a stream.

If there was a trainer near me I would definitely do tracking work with him - I wanted to train him as a Search and Rescue dog but didn't find out about the service until he was 3 years old and by that time he was too old to be trained for S&R. If there is somewhere nearby where you could train him to track you may well be able to turn an annoying trait into one that has a purpose and channel his instincts into something that is controlled. What part of the country do you live in as there are some very good courses available  that I have seen but sadly all too far away from where I live.

I think neutering could make your problem much worse, than it already is, as neutering invariably increases appetite as the bodies need for food is reduced, and you cut ratiosna dn dog gets hungry.

I know it's a bitch, but my 'bog off' dog  Jozi  (now 14 1/2), who used to go off lead as long as I wasn't in a hurry, has never been able to go off lead since she was spayed at 7, as she is a nightmare looking for and finding food.  She never used to be a foodie.

If it isn't the remains of someone's KFC or Kebab she would get into the gardens along the country park (not dog proofed),and raid the food recycling bins (only need to flip the handle) and make herself sick, not to mention I had to enter peoples gardens to retrieve her, as she would ignore my calls.

Thanks all for the replies.

His tracking skills aren't quite up to your dog's standards Harley - he can quite easily walk over his ball whilst looking for it, and manage not to find a treat on the ground!

Rather, he is sniffing and licking at leaves/bird poo/other dogs wee, he almost goes into a trance where his jaw will wobble and he'll salivate whilst licking. Takes a mighty lot of strength to get him off it. Funnily enough he has the best 'off' command I could hope for when it's a toy/food, but completely ignored when it's a really good smell.

Unfortunately he's never that desperate for food, as he has empty-stomach sickness (basically an over production of bile if his stomach is too empty which makes him vomit). We've found splitting his meals into 4-hour slots keeps the sickness at bay, rather than the 3x a day, life-long antacid tablets from the vets.
So although when he wants to, he can be an absolute darling when I've got a tasty treat in my hand, another day I may as well not have anything!

Tectona, you're right he is a lovely boy and when I first thought about neutering/medical intervention I was of the same opinion (if it aint broke, don't fix it), but the intensity has increased ten-fold, and I'd like him to be a lovely boy all the time...not just when he feels like it if there isn't something more interesting.
His only other sexual signs are that 6 months ago he's just started lifting his leg (at 2.5 years old). He'll still mainly squat for a wee, but if he's met a dog at the garden fence or out on a walk, then he starts to mark.

He'll play with a toy, and I try and get him really excited with it (in the garden) but he's always got an eye on the fence to see if any other dogs are about to be walking past... Or we can do 2 or 3 throws, lovely fetches in return for a treat, but on the 3rd throw he'll decide he's not bothering and is going to see if something else is more interesting over there. Or dives off mid-fetch, drops the toy and starts licking at the grass!

They're minor problems in the scheme of things, but things are so on his terms that I feel a bit like I'm losing (lost?!) control. Doesn't help we have an acre of garden which is his kingdom, if he decides he's going to the top of the garden I'm about 3 minutes behind him! Had a long line on him when he was younger but after an incident getting wrapped around a tree at full speed I decided never again. Constantly training in the garden, been doing recall training every day for 3 years (never going inside after he's recalled, mixing up the treats to keep him guessing, hiding behind bushes, lots of praise, touching collar before giving treat, try not to set him up to fail if he's seen a squirrel to chase etc. etc.) but he still picks and chooses if there's something else he could be doing instead. He never had the puppy instinct to stick close and follow me, always independent and happiest on his own exploring!

Wonder if he will ever listen to me(!). Maybe Tardak/neutering isn't the answer, but a combination of all that training and perhaps more of his attention might be?

Sounds like he ought to be one of my breed.

I certainly think him having his own 'kingdom' means you really are less entertaining, and I'd split your garden into a smallish (mine have first 20 feet of a 60 foot x 25 foot garden) of dog area and the rest is your garden where he can go with you by invitation.  (also helps with poo pick up and wet feet in bad weather especially if his free access area is paved/gravelled.

He also can't ignore you in the smaller area, as eh can't get beyond your physical (and mental) reach easily.

Whilst I would love to cordon off the garden and physically make him focus his attention on me, it is my parents' garden, who wouldn't take as kindly to some plastic orange fencing stretched across as I would :(

Some days he decides to be really responsive, play fetch, listen to what I'm saying, recall nicely... Other days I may as well be invisible. It really is hit or miss, which makes me wonder if he has the potential to be great...it is his hormones stopping him being like that all the time?

>who wouldn't take as kindly to some plastic orange fencing stretched across as I would :-(

My garden proud neighbours got two JR pups when their old girl died and they proceeded to destroy the garden.

I suggested the bought a roll of square 2 inch galvanised weldmesh wire, and they made panels with frames for them out to heavy duty battens, with which they enclosed their patio.

This was unobtrusive (weldmesh box section panels would be better but more expensive), so much so, that what was supposed to be a temporary measure became permanent, they just repainted the framing every year with wood preserver.

Your parents could well be persuaded to the advantages of limiting where he was able to toilet, and it would help keep the house cleaner in wet weather.

Rabbit sheep fencing would be strong, work well and again be visually pretty unobtrusive.