I am so disgusted WITH THE KENNEL CLUB [and I have sent this to them too]that they still have the ordacity to run good competent experienced breeders down constantly, trying to get the public to ignore us and buy from inexperienced breeders, and on the tv  at crufts again last week this was all being said as well.
I know a lot of very good breeders are not joining your accredited club now as it is a money making racket, premoting the inexperianced breeder.
You have no right to run the experienced breeders down, and praise a first time breeder, with no experience, who does not know about temperament, or understand  that with out several generations in place, there can be no continuity, with top class health and temperament test.
Its no reason to  dismiss us as we won't pay for your club.. You seem to want to promote these folk, as there house is clean and tidy, do records which office staff would appreciate.
A first litter, no generations of the breed, who have been chosen for temperament and conformation etc. It is totally out of order, and it won't be long I assure you, that some one takes you to court for this continuing slander.

Excuse me, but I think your comments are misdirected, it is the 'Kennel Club (not this forum) that is giving the impression the only good breeders are the ones on the Kennel Club Assured Breeder scheme, as you say there are many who are better breeders and choose not to join, and others do not like the direction and what the ABS due to AKAS accreditation processes has become (about method not quality) and are resigning or like myself seriously considering not re-joining when the current membership is up.

I am not saying the forum,I want the forum to join in the way the KC are branding us though, but yes so many are not rejoining, and not impressed with the KC in the way it is being so negitive about good breeders, rather premote first litter breeders, as I have pointed out. The KC almost run us down, and did so on the TV at crufts, I was so shocked to hear the comments the presenters were telling jo public

Crufts wasn't last week.

Is that all you can say!!

I'm afraid I can't understand what you've written. :-(

If you give a reason for your rant I am sure we will all be happy to read it. Is it something specific you have a problem with ? I am still an ABS breeder who has just had an inspection. I am happy with staying in the scheme, I can understand why others do not wish to but you are being very generalised. I am a very small breeder but am 100% happy to comply with the ABS rules and have been breeding for many years. Excuse me if you do not like it but I am rather annoyed that you think all ABS breeders are puppy farmers as your post insinuates.
Aileen

I also do not fully understand your post.  I was only able to watch a very small amount of the tv coverage of Crufts and was amazed at how many times they mentioned the KCAB scheme.....

I think the thrust of what zuluhour means is pretty clear:

1. Zuluhour believes that the kcabs fails to distinguish between experienced and inexperienced breeders, and to recognise the value of experience; that it promotes and legitimises breeders with no real knowledge.

2. Zuluhour is offended at what is perceived as a KC propaganda campaign in which all breeders outside the KCABS are demonised.

Agree BeagleBaggie appears clear to me.

That is correct, and the speakers on the cruft tv program told the public in no uncertain terms NOT TO BUY FROM ANYONE WHO WAS NOT in the KCABS.
I along with many others are fed up with the KC, they are happy to take our money to register puppies, yet let us all down in so many other ways.
I can see also it is very difficult to stop puppy farm pups being moved around the country, sold from nice homes to unsuspecting buyers, but to do what they are to us in these bold statements is not good.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">2. Zuluhour is offended at what is perceived as a KC propaganda campaign in which all breeders outside the KCABS are demonised.

Agree, but it is difficutl as the big problem generally is for the genral public to distinguish god breeders from bad.

The KC hoped that the KCABS would do this.

Sadly many of us who go well beyond the scheme requirements, but really dislike the pigeon holing, box ticking formalisation/standardisation that goes with the scheme, it's undue concentration on paperwork etc.

For example having to have a stud contract, when gentleman's agreements have always been the norm,  I your male has been used or ditto for when you have used a dog. it all smacks too much of commercialisation in what for most of us is a hobby and passion.

The scheme has become too inflexible, as there is no one right way of doing things, with so much being breed, home, facilities and numbers specific.  Also what one person is happy with (say puppies underfoot peeing all over, and other may be less relaxed and prefer to have pups more contained.  Same with pups outdoors, when, how etc are all variable.

It does seem that the scheme is best suited to breeders who keep 'a kennels' rather than full time companion dogs.

1. Zuluhour believes that the kcabs fails to distinguish between experienced and inexperienced breeders, and to recognise the value of experience; that it promotes and legitimises breeders with no real knowledge.

The point of the scheme has never been to promote experienced breeders. After all, any puppy farmer with a council license could churn out 20 litters in one year, and then technically could be said to have more experience than somebody who has bred one litter every other year for 20 years.

You cannot really define experience anyway. Is it breeding as many litters as possible, owning as many dogs as possible, or owning dogs for as long as possible? Who is more experienced, the person who has had 5 dogs of the same breed for the past 10 years, or the person who has had 5 dogs of the same breed but one at a time over a period of 50 years? The person who has had several dogs of the same breed for 10 years but has never belonged to a breed club or shown their dogs, or the person who has had one or two dogs of their breed for the past 5 years, joined all breed clubs and shown regularly, attended seminars etc? The entire point is to try to make as many breeders as possible to do it the responsible way, as opposed to just mating two dogs together without even a thought to health testing. Sure, it isn't without its flaws, but it's certainly better than nothing. Especially now when ABs are inspected.

For example having to have a stud contract, when gentleman's agreements have always been the norm, 

Sadly these days anything like that can come back and bite you when you least expect it -even with people you consider close friends. Having had a few bad experiences I now put everything into writing, for my own sake.

That is all very well, but the choice should be yours.

I totally agree about all the box ticking.   For most hobby breeders it's not necessary.

In many areas of life now, box ticking is the norm.   But I haven't seen any area where the mountain of paperwork and box ticking has led to any kind of improvement.   In many cases it's the opposite.   But it's ok because all the boxes have been ticked  :-(

As far as the ABS is concerned, I really don't feel it's an appropriate response to the original'problem.   Just the Kennel Club being seen publicly to be 'doing something'  very quickly, rather than a measured well thought out response.

Just the Kennel Club being seen publicly to be 'doing something'  very quickly,

What do you mean? The ABS has been going for 10 years so started before all the media attention.

The ABS is improving. I have just had my inspection as a small breeder with 8 litters in 15 years. The inspection was geared to a small breeder and the lady who came was very sensible, She also said that with big breeders, not just puppy farmers but big show breeding kennels (and there are lots in the UK who breed large quantities of dogs taking the best for showing and putting hundreds into the pet market) she expects much more paperwork to show that the records are correct. This is much more important when some have 3 -4 litters at a time. She would need to see mating/whelping records, dogs are checked with microchip/tattoo numbers to make sure they are what they should be. Questions are asked about staffing levels, health records and testing is checked against dogs. The inspection is much more involved. If dogs are kennelled then quarantine/whelping/living areas have to be separate. Fire regulations adhered to, kitchen areas separate to humans etc..
The ABS is far from being perfect yet but it is slowly improving. I for one am more than happy to support it as it grows and hope that one day it will be right. Small steps to move towards the ideal is the best way.
I know I am in a minority just now but that is my choice. We all have the option to make our own choice to join or not. If you choose not to join then that's up to you and your feelings.
I think we are so quick to knock something new. New things have teething problems but with time and education they do get ironed out. The ABS is still in its infancy and I am hopeful that as it grows it will start to address at least some of the problems. The laws in the UK need to change to restrict the free for all puppy factories and money making "cash-cow" mentality of the BY's and puppy farmers. The KC has no power to touch these people but it is constantly bashed for "not doing anything".
Some of the work done by the KC is excellent and huge steps have been made in health testing and research often funded by the KC.
Maybe some of you could turn your attention to the BVA who are more than happy to relieve you of your money in the name of healthy breeding by charging so much for testing. I see they have just raised the price or hip and elbow scoring. If they really wanted more people to do these tests and maintain they are in it for the good of dogs they could cut these expenses to a minimum.
Aileen

Very well said Aileen. The KC actually do a lot behind the scenes that people aren't necessarily aware of. For instance a few days ago I had en email from them saying they'd noticed I am the registered owner of a Golden Retriever (I still have one) and they are doing research into why some Goldens and Labradors become obese so easily, whereas others do not, and they want owners of older dogs to take part in a study including DNA testing, a vet check and weigh (at their expense) to find out if there is a gene responsible for this. A few years ago I was asked for DNA from my Golden with severe HD; again because of research being done.

Sounds like you had a very sensible assessor who took into account the kind of breeder and was not applying one size fits all criteria, sadly some people I know who breed on a small scale had exactly that large scale criteria applied. 

One has only bred three litters about every other year, and the other has been breeding longer but less than a litter a year.

One is in the North of England the other in Scotland, a third was happy enough with the visit other than the issue over stud contracts, but has yet to have the report.

I will see what happens if I get my visit before my current membership expires in May.

I had my inspection just before Christmas, despite the fact I had cancelled the visit 3 weeks prior, due to me being in and out of Hospital for tests.

The inspection went well, despite me not being ready for it, and 2 months later I got to see the report. Scored 3 on most things a couple of 2's and 1x 1.( lack of 1st aid kit in kennel....oops) and a remark that the KC had no need for concern. The feedback from Puppy Buyers had all been positive and several had commented that they would indeed come back for another puppy and would recommend us to those seeking to purchase a puppy.

I then received an email from the KCAB telling me there was a whole heap of things wrong....WTF!!

The comments that hurt and angered the most were
I hadn't taken part in any Health testing.....Wrong, all those that have been bred from have been tested
I have to re-home my older retired Hounds.....Why???
Letting the dogs run free on my land isn't good enough exercise....What?????
I need to put on my contract that I guarantee the Endorsements WILL be lifted, and that puppies are graded Show / Pet / working etc.....Errr, No I Don't, my puppies are sold first and foremost as pets, they might have show potential but I would never be so presumptuous as to sell a puppy as a guaranteed Show Dog.
Removing the poo and scrubbing down the outside runs with Zoflora daily isn't good enough.....?????
The Kennels are not big enough for 2 Bassets to share, despite the sleeping area being 8ft x 4ft with 24hr access via a Dog Flap to the outside runs of 24ft, where the first 12ft is under cover, and has a 3-4 inch thick layer of wood chip and the other 12ft being concrete......How can that not be big enough?????
The Turn out area of 20ft x 90ft where the dogs go while I clean the kennels, and during the summer spend most of the day, before we go out for a walk, isn't big enough...........Again how can this not be big enough when it is bigger than most peoples back gardens?????

And don't get me started on the paperwork.....Starting with, Instruct puppy buyers on how to put a lead and collar on?????????

We Quit!

> I have to re-home my older retired Hounds.....Why???

The KC want you to rehome your dogs????? That is appalling!! Have they said why?

> The Turn out area of 20ft x 90ft where the dogs go while I clean the kennels, and during the summer spend most of the day, before we go out for a walk, isn't big enough...........Again how can this not be big enough when it is bigger than most peoples back gardens?????

It is bigger than mine. Obviously I wont pass then.

> Removing the poo and scrubbing down the outside runs with Zoflora daily isn't good enough.....?????

Did they tell you what you should be doing?

> And don't get me started on the paperwork.....Starting with, Instruct puppy buyers on how to put a lead and collar on?????????

If I have puppy buyers who need telling this then they won't get a puppy from me!

I have a problem with the ABS because from its inception, it was clear that this was (mainly) another money-making scheme.   And I hate elitism which this tends to be.    There are any number of good experienced breeders out here who are producing generations of top quality stock who have decided to be suspicious about the motivation of the KC here.   I know to some extent, this only buy from a KCABS breeder message is to counter buying from a BYB, but to say ONLY buy from one isn't right.   If I was still breeding (and how often lately have I thanked my lucky stars that I've retired now) I'd have to consider my options when it came to signing up to all that.

ps   Jo - I'm horrified to read what the KC is asking of you.   Like I say, I'm happy to be retired and out of all that!!  I wonder what they'd have said with our set up which didn't include official kennelling - mine were all house-dogs.

I have a problem with the ABS because from its inception, it was clear that this was (mainly) another money-making scheme.

How? For a full 9 years you paid a tenner a year. That surely won't even cover the certificate and the newsletters you get plus the puppy folders, let alone the visits. They must have lost a lot of money, hence increasing the fees now.

I don't think that the kennel club is always out to be money grabbing but then Mamabas you think vets too are only out to get as much as they can out of you.
Do you have any better suggestions for how the KC could tighten up on puppy farmers and BYB's ? Without of course pushing them out so there is no control at all. After all they can join the DL Reg scheme with absolutely NO rules to follow, the pet owning public are often unaware of which Reg is good or bad. Easy to shun the scheme and not have to comply with things. Not quite so easy to pass an inspection these days. Of course the KC is going to recommend byers go to an AB as they want more to join so they can slowly tighten up on the rules. Once Joe Public has taken it on board that they need to find good breeders and it actually makes them try harder to source a good puppy and to look at the ABS in more detail the KC can start to eliminate the bad 'uns from the pack. If the public all go through the ABS scheme then it will pay for people to be members and those who do not have good standards will have to tighten them up or miss out on puppy sales.
The KC is not a legal body and relies on peoples goodwill to join in and try to improve the sad lot of dogs in this country. Those who shout from the side-lines and rubbish everything they do never seem to have any workable alternatives.
Just to add that the lady who did my inspection asked me if I rehome my old dogs. I told her no and she asked if there was a reason why. She was happy with the answers I gave. I got the impression she was trying to find out if I discarded them rather that suggesting I did. Quite the opposite from suggesting I got rid of them. But then mine all live in the house with us and have earned a comfy retirement by the fire.
Aileen

>And I hate elitism which this tends to be.

I'm the opposite; I think elitism encourages improvement, rather than have everyone supposedly 'equal' so there's no distinction between those who use good breeding practices and those who don't bother.

How? For a full 9 years you paid a tenner a year. That surely won't even cover the certificate and the newsletters you get plus the puppy folders, let alone the visits

£10 X how many who signed up to all this ..........and visits weren't being done initially?   I'm not arguing about this, just expressing my opinion here.  Take it or leave it.

I'm the opposite; I think elitism encourages improvement, rather than have everyone supposedly 'equal' so there's no distinction between those who use good breeding practices and those who don't bother

I hope you are right in that - for me a two-tiered system would smack of elitism.   Depending on how it's viewed.   Again there are some long-standing extremely good breeders who decided not to join up to all this - are they to be viewed as 'bad breeders' because they don't?

>are they to be viewed as 'bad breeders' because they don't?

Are they to be viewed as 'good breeders' because they don't and therefore aren't exposing themselves to inspection?

It works both ways.

£10 X how many who signed up to all this ..........and visits weren't being done initially?   I'm not arguing about this, just expressing my opinion here.  Take it or leave it.

Visits were always done -the difference is that from this year ALL have to be inspected no matter what, if they want to register pups. Before they concentrated on those that bred more than one or two litters a year.

but then Mamabas you think vets too are only out to get as much as they can out of you.

Oooh, this is such a hard, critical place, but you are not wrong there - and when you've lived in this sad world as long as I have and experienced what I have over the years, you might agree.  I have had a few really good vets who have been there for us with our hounds, but I can count how many on the fingers of one hand.

There must be a huge difference of the reporting/assessment based on who does it, as Jo's experience was very similar to my Scottish friend (criticism of dogs exuberant behaviour, amount of exercise, how she managed her litters by taking them up to her bedroom at night etc) who was in tears and ready to give up ever breeding a litter again.

Paperwork was a big issue, but she had to start from scratch in a rash after her laptop broke and her previous documents with it.

Yet she had glowing reports from puppy owners, especially re the f5reindliness and bomb proof nature of their rearing due to being brought up with her very lively young family.

I got her to contact the ABS who asked her to write in with her concerns re the report, which she did, but as yet has had no reply.  her original visit was in July, yet her Mum had her visit and passed with flying colours (smaller breed, but more cramped urban home, where my freidn lives in the country.

I can second what tyddhound says, my friend was recently inspected and all they harped on about was that there was not enough paperwork telling puppy buyers how and whereetc on how to ssocialise pups.

The point I want to make is Why are the KC telling the public NOT to buy pups from breeders unless they are KCAB. To state this on the 2014 Crufts TV this year is going to have people taking them to court for slander.
Why should good experienced breeders who do all the necessary health testing, only breed max of 2-3 litters from a bitch, have many generations of excellent temperments, in the dogs in their homes they can show a puppy buyer have to put up with this kind of talk on a world wide program CRUFTS.
Just because it is their choice not to PAY the KC to join their latest money making club, and have all the agro written below to contend with.

quite simply because they can, if people take the message and stop buying from no ab breeders everyone else will be forced to follow suit.

I quit the scheme at crufts after being a member since it's  inception. For every one positive inspection there seem to be lots of very negative ones. As a very small scale breeder I refuse to run my home like a "breeding business" to pass an inspection which often focuses on things that have absolutely no impact on the rearing of a healthy well socialised puppy.

Well said KLB  I totally agree with you, and as for the pictures they can take, it is so invasive.

>and as for the pictures they can take, it is so invasive.

The people who've had it done don't seem to think so though. :-)

Looking at what people post on Facebook -photos of their dinners, their dogs' dinners, their partners asleep, etc etc, I can't see how a few photos of your freezers and dog beds, not to be published, could be considered to be invasive.

I don't feel it invasive at all... My visit was done 2 weeks ago.. took 3.5hours and was a pleasant experience, no different to my initial visit 2 years ago.  The photo's were not invasive in any way.. they were not photos of my personal things, cupboards etc.. they were photos of where I keep food, dogs, bedding, literally all things Dog! 

It seems peoples' individual comfort zones vary, but the visit was very relaxed, and my report back to the kennel club about the assessor was very positive :)

Mine was the same experience as yours Kay, was done in January and is detailed on here somewhere.

> Looking at what people post on Facebook -photos of their dinners, their dogs' dinners, their partners asleep, etc etc, I can't see how a few photos of your freezers and dog beds, not to be published, could be considered to be invasive.

Maybe you post that sort of picture but I dont post anything much online at all. I too dont like the idea of the photographing of "evidence" involved. I hate the idea of people looking over the pictures and discussing  my home. If dog breeding were my business then I can see the value of inspections but as I only breed the occasional litter as a hobby I dont see the need to keep to  commercial practices. My dog keeping is very relaxed. I dont keep extensive records of  the puppies I breed and my puppy packs are created individually for each litter and can vary depending on the new owner. I am happy living in a slightly disorganised way and  I dont see why I should have to change all that to meet the new standards.
I have dogs as a hobby for myself and do the best I can for my pups but dont want to have to adhere to a "formula" no matter how good it maybe. I know it has been said the visit is no different from puppy buyers coming to visit but I dont see how that can be. My puppy buyers dont go and inspect my kitchen and freezers and photograph everything to compare with other breeders.  I also will not be renewing my membership when it becomes due.

eta most of my records are kept in my memory and that has served me well up to now and I am happy with it.

Maybe you post that sort of picture but I dont post anything much online at all. I too dont like the idea of the photographing of "evidence" involved. I hate the idea of people looking over the pictures and discussing  my home.

I don't but it seems the rest of the world do. However, I would wonder what anybody objecting to photos of dog food storage etc had to hide. Why else would it matter? There's nothing personal about a storage bin for dry food or a freezer full of meat. It isn't your underwear drawer. It isn't your stash of unhealthy food for yourself. And if you don't want your home discussed then surely you cannot be an AB -and again I'd wonder what there was to hide.

My puppy buyers dont go and inspect my kitchen and freezers and photograph everything to compare with other breeders.

So if a puppy buyer asked if they could see how/where you keep the dogs' food, in order to get an idea of how they could solve a storage problem themselves, you'd object? Especially if they wanted to take a photo to remind themselves of what you'd done? Seems very odd to me. I have certainly showed my freezers to a LOT of visiting puppy and kitten buyers, it's a natural part of explaining how I feed my animals and how I have solved what many people perceive to be the biggest problem with feeding raw -how to store it. I also don't think anyone has ever said how one person does things is ever COMPARED to how other breeders do it, but if you object to being compared to other breeders, then surely showing dogs is impossible as well as that is the biggest comparison of them all.

> So if a puppy buyer asked if they could see how/where you keep the dogs' food, in order to get an idea of how they could solve a storage problem themselves, you'd object? Especially if they wanted to take a photo to remind themselves of what you'd done?

I just wouldn't see the need. I have a freezer in the garage and I keep the food in those. It is not complicated, If a buyer needed more explanation about that then i would question whether they would be suitable to be able to raise one of my puppys. I am a naturally private, shy person and I find the visits from puppy buyers difficult as it is. I do it to make sure my pups go to suitable homes. The buyers have been vetted and I have spoken to them before hand and I am as sure as I can be that I am happy with them. I have already started to form a relationship with them. The thought of a total stranger looking over my home and fault, even if not to my face finding makes me very unhappy. You may be a more social person and enjoy allowing strangers access to all areas of your home but I find it very difficult. That does not make me a bad person or make me unsuitable to raise puppies. I dont have anything to hide as you are implying.

The pictured taken during my visit were one of the area in the lounge where the whelping box goes. One of the shed with the freezers and one of the outside puppy area. The assessors do not have "access to all areas of your home".
No one insists that you are a member.
No one insists that you even register your pups with the CK.
You can do as you please.
I am happy to comply as I feel there is worth in the scheme. I think that it is a very very slow process and the low life breeders will breed forever, but bit by bit Joe public will get some education and will look more and more towards having some back up in place if they have a problem with a pup. Those educated people who take time to do research will use the ABS more and more. I do not have a problem with the KC promoting ABS as I am one !
Most of the calls I get now unless from champdogs come from the ABS. I also have a better quality of enquiries from the ABS.
Aileen

I totally agree with  Smithy
I am the same, I really do not look forward to the buyers having to visit, although they could not be nicer, and I am also slightly disorganised. I still feel it is very wrong for the KC to say what they do about not buying from anyone unless they are KCAB and it won't be long for sure before some one does do something about this, it is totally wrong, I am glad so many breeders are coming out of this KCAB group. I had 60 pictures taken when I was joining, they took nearly every part of my home in side, all my outside, fields fences etc stables, and had the nerve to describe my home as if they were estate agents offering it for sale.
I think champ dogs is the most fab sight, and I only get the nicest folk enquire about my dogs, and we have to have everything in place ie hearts hips eyes etc, all in date, before our adds go live. Not so for the KC.

As a lay person who is looking for a puppy at the moment i read this with interest so please excuse my ignorance if i am wrong on facts. I am simply putting a view across as a potential buyer.

Until i stumbled across Champdogsforum i was browsing the other well known sites.  These all post pretty pictures but as soon as you want contact the potential breeder you are asked to pay a fee (if the ad is under 7 days).

When i came onto Champdogsforum i posed a question and was given expert, professional advice by numerous members free of charge. If, to go on the waiting list for a litter for what i then knew would be a responsibly bred, socialised puppy - i would happily pay the fee. I paid the fee for one of the others and after speaking to the breeder i wasnt happy. i posted  my queries here with this forum & had i not would have almost certainly ended up at a puppy farm / BYB.

I have noticed that only KC and Champdogs are the ones who do not demand a fee to see the breeders details. (Of those i have looked at). It seems unfair that those who are going above and beyond in the breeding world are financially penalised. It would be nice if that was recognised and the accredited breeder was awarded to you not that you are handicapped by all excessive amounts of paperwork and then have to pay a fee.

It is sad that  a greater understanding has to be sought and is not publicised. I do not want my money going into the pocket of someone who disregards the well being of the dogs involved. I was speaking to 2 colleagues recently who really thought they had done the right thing.one had purchased her dog from a pet shop - she went to get a Yorkshire terrier but the puppy was terrified so she bought the cavalier King Charles spaniel!

The other bought from one of the websites and as she saw the mums pedigree papers thought this meant she had a quality pup.

Apologies if i have misunderstood but wanted to put across a buyers perspective, maybe the KC need to hear from joe public more ?