After 15 months i am finally ready to look for another shih tzu.  I am interested in those claiming to be breeding for health and am visiting a breeder this pm to view a litter. This is a council approved 32 yrs experienced breeder but the pup is not KC registered. This does not bother me personally as my last shih tzu was but had the most chronic health problems including respiratory problems which she died from. I was wondering why someone with all those years experience and a passion for the breed would not register a litter or be KC member. I checked the KC website but couldn't find anything about this stud. Should this ring alarm bells or am i over thinking it?

I notice you are in Germany! Maybe that is a mistake as you are asking about KC reg dogs. Council approved breeders tend to be more puppy farmer than true breeders.
You are on the champdogs site so why not look at the puppies advertised here. Or check the breed club site --the secretary will be able to put you in touch with bonafide breeders. thirdly there is the KC own site where KC breeders announce their litters.

Edited to add there are 8 litters on this site alone.

Wow went to bed in London woke up in Germany! Didnt even notice the flag must be on my registration cheers for the heads up. I have just got off the phone with her and asked why she doesn't register her litters and she said that she isnt a fan of the kennel club. She feels it ruined the German Shepherd, the Boxer and the bulldog. Bit of sour grapes m'be.

I am not in any rush but am looking for a healthy dog. I don't even mind a rescue (Lily was rescued) but having had a KC dog that had ridiculous health issues (i was resuscitating her nightly) i don't hold it in great stead. i am maybe looking for the impossible a larger shih tzu - but think if Lil' had not been so tiny and flat faced she wouldn't have struggled so much.

Thanks for your advice she was the only experience i have had regarding dogs but she really was my sunshine.x

From the experience of  one KC dog you can't claim its for that reason your dog was unhealthy.....bit like saying you met one nasty example of a breed and thought the whole breed was vicious.

To me a ' licenced breeder' and no KC registration smacks of a profit driven BYB.
I'd search out a KC breeder who has evidence of healthy, long lived dogs and who puts the welfare of their dogs before profit.

Hi yes I do get that i am being irrational. She was too defensive so we aren't going. Thanks for your help chaps. I will contact some of the breeders on here.

Remember that 'licenced breeder' is another term for 'commercial breeder' (because it's determined by the number of litters bred each year) - which is sometimes synonymous with 'puppy farmer'. If, added to that, the puppies aren't KC registered then they're being bred purely for profit - not a great start in life.

I was wondering why someone with all those years experience and a passion for the breed would not register a litter or be KC member.

And you are very right to wonder.........

she said that she isnt a fan of the kennel club. She feels it ruined the German Shepherd, the Boxer and the bulldog. Bit of sour grapes m'be.

:-D Alas, a phrase used by puppy farmers all over the country,

The Kennel Club is first and foremost the only official pedigree registration organisation, a KC registered pup is proof of a pedigree and a long lineage, the reason why it should be registered, (much like our own birth certificate) otherwise there is no proof other than word or mouth (who'd trust that today) that you actually have a guaranteed pedigree dog.

A KC registered pup does not mean it is to breed standard or healthy, it means nothing but that pups birth certificate (which you need) the KCABS goes a little further, not only do you get that much needed official 'birth certificate' but the scheme does its' best to rear a healthy pup, breeders on this scheme need to comply with health tests (which you should always view) and welfare issues, you need to look for breeders on the KCABS scheme. (Unless a KC breeder has proof of all health testing and has not yet joined.)

But as for breed standard no, doesn't mean a thing being KC registered, so the breeder above is talking poppycock, she/he can breed in or out physical traits she/he does not approve of.

If the breeder above is so offended by the breed standard why are they not doing so, but still giving their pups that official trusted pedigree lineage which the KC offers, complete rubbish? The KC protects bitches from being overbred, bred too young, too old etc very often those not registering flaunt these rules, which is why they would be unable to register, not saying that is the case here, but why else would someone not wish to give their pups official proof of pedigree, you may as well buy a mongrel from such breeders as there is no real proof a pup is 100% what it is supposed to be.

Look for your pup via the breed clubs great place to start and look at KCABS breeders, Champdogs breeders pages also are very strict in their criteria, plenty of breeders there to look at too, ;-)

Wherever you view your pup and do look at many breeders, make sure that all health tests have been carried out and make sure the pup is KC registered to prove lineage. Be picky....... as the pup will be with you for many years, don't be fooled by puppy eyes, look for the breeder who is knowledgeable and goes that extra mile to breed healthy stock and look at where these pups are reared and always with the dam.

Above all else don't be afraid to walk away, just say you'll think about it.......... people often advertise things not true, see with your eyes, not a flashy website, unfortunately for every good breeder out there, you'll find 100 who are not. But start with KCABS breeders and go from there. :-)

Good luck, sounds scary I know, but look for the right things and you'll find that great breeder and a beautiful pup. :-)

I am interested in those claiming to be breeding for health

A good breeder should not breed for one thing only, but should be aiming for a good dog overall. The dogs should be healthy, have the correct temperament for their breed, and also LOOK like their breed. After all, a dog that is healthy but acts differently to other examples of its breed and has different looks as well isn't what most people want -everyone chooses a breed for a reason and the reasons will normally be the way it looks and the way it behaves. Likewise, of course, a nice looking dog with nice temperament that is unhealthy is just as wrong. Ask breeders their REASON for breeding. It should never be just to sell, to make money, for the experience of having a litter, because they have so many people wanting pups etc. It should always be because they are trying to  achieve something for themselves and for the breed as a whole. Improve on something. They will want to keep a puppy usually, not sell the entire litter and then plan the next. They will be a member of one or more breed clubs and they will be involved in their chosen breed whether it is in showing or any form of working the breed -although in the case of a Shih Tzu I'd say it would only be showing that comes into it. :) They should be happy to answer any number of questions, and above all they will want to ask YOU a lot of questions before even considering to sell you a puppy, as a good breeder takes utmost care to place their pups in the best, most suitable homes, where they feel sure that the puppy will be well cared for for life.

Just to add to what others have said I've seen a few breeders advertising imperial shih tzu, they seem to be breeding for what they call 'rare' colours at higher prices. I'd be warie of them as well.

Rather than looking for a puppy I'd look for a good breeder then join there waiting list as many good breeders will habe a list of people waiting for a puppy from them. That way yes you have to Waite but you take the emotion of 'ah it's a cute puppy' out of it and at the end of it you should get a well bred pup from a good breeder. Many people go to view local litters and end up feeling sorry for a pup from a bad breeder and end up buying it to save it then have problems with it later on.

A good breeder will be happy to answer all your questions and will want to ask you questions about yourself too. If a breeder doesn't seem to care about knowing about you and just wants you to pick a pup they obviously don't care where there pups go.
They will be happy and want you to come and meet there dogs, you will get to see how they keep them, there temperaments, they should discuss any breed common traits, health problems and grooming.
They should be able to show you all paperwork like kc reg, any health test results (all though I notice there are non recommended by the kc for the breed), they may have a puppy contracted and have advice sheets too.

Again thanks for all your tips. My last shih tzu was very small so anything saying imperial or t cup we are veering away from.  I don't want to show or breed from her, but having spoken to a lot of other owners everyone says they have similar character traits so i would like to go for the same breed. I have gained so much knowledge from your posts and can see the benefits of going KCABS. Just beginning to look so will keep you all posted. As i said i don't care how long it takes its not about the time or money for its about a healthy happy dog.

Again thanks for all your tips. My last shih tzu was very small so anything saying imperial or t cup we are veering away from.  I don't want to show or breed from her, but having spoken to a lot of other owners everyone says they have similar character traits so i would like to go for the same breed. I have gained so much knowledge from your posts and can see the benefits of going KCABS. Just beginning to look so will keep you all posted. As i said i don't care how long it takes its not about the time or money for its about a healthy happy dog.

Although you don't want to show, don't think that a show breeder isn't for you.   Most show  breeders, breed to keep a pup, but they  also will have pups, which, whilst really well bred, may not quite make the grade as show dogs.    The difference between show and pet can be really minor and just means the pet owner gets a really nice pet with a good pedigree and a breeder who cares about their pups.    It can be something as minor as imperfect markings, or a pup  that has less 'attitude'  (so easier to live with :-) )  

The important thing to look for is a breeder who is willing to tell you the downside of the breed, as well as the good parts, and who asks you as many questions as you ask them (or more!  :-)   )

The Breed Clubs will have either breeder lists, or puppy lists and will help you find a breeder who is ethical and responsible in their breeding.
Good luck with your search :-)

Like, like, like to Dill's post above!!!

And when you find a really good breeder, treasure them, 'cos it's highly likely that you will want another puppy from them in the fullness of time!

Thank you Dill that is really helpful i wish i had found this forum months ago!