Did you watch it and if you did, what did you think? :)

Not yet but there is a bit of FB chat about it saying how bad one of the dog wardens came across

Have sky+d it but not watched yet not sure I want too I am certain it will contain my beloved SBT's and I doubt in a good light.

A couple of thoughts straight away. The first one is that I am very glad that at long last there was a programme that did not blame the dogs but the owners and irresponsible breeders! It so needed to be said! There were some horrifying stories on there. The second is that the dog warden that was mainly featured isn't really coping with her job and would be better off changing to something else. No wonder as she had been so badly attacked, it would surely make anyone wary for life, but with the Akita (that turned out to be lovely in nature and just guarded his home) she went way over the top and almost killed him by strangulation when bringing him out.  That will all have been based on fear from her side, just like so many of the dogs shown were showing aggression out of fear.

I watched it and did the inevitable shouting at the telly.
One warden I thought was outrageous, screaming and shouting at an extremely frightened and aggressive Akita who she was trying to get out of the house where he had been abandoned, she seemed more concerned about getting covered in poo, than the dog.
Most of my ire was reserved for the drunk/junkie ( take your pick) who had bred a litter of SBTx EBT puppies and was flogging them at four weeks for £50. Nothing, absolutly nothing ,was done to dissuade him, the puppies were under sized, and badly cared for, and all the warden did was roll her eyes at the camera. He didn't even know how many puppies there were, or how many he had sold.
What the program did very well I thought, was highlight that these dogs are made through neglect, abuse and bad breeding.

Oh and nearly forgot the bright spark who put one bowl of food in with two emaciated dogs, and seemed surprised that a fight broke out !...he was downright dangerous to himself, other workers and dogs in his care.

One warden I thought was outrageous, screaming and shouting at an extremely frightened and aggressive Akita who she was trying to get out of the house where he had been abandoned, she seemed more concerned about getting covered in poo, than the dog.

This was my point about her no longer being able to do her job. She was scared (with good reason) and fear makes you irrational, whether you are human or canine. Really her bosses should have spotted she isn't coping and should do something about it.

I was also infuriated by that Celli...duh...its not rocket science to work out that 2 terrified, really stressed dogs, when fed together, who also happen to have been starved, are going to fight. He is a disgrace to his job. I was highly surprised to hear at the end of the programme that these dogs had been found homes. I was convinced that the one who bit him, through no fault of her own, was going to be PTS. Think I would have bitten him if he had dragged me out so aggressively like that!

Agree that the dog warden was often out of her depth when dealing with these dogs and people but I am under no illusion that this must be a very difficult job. I couldn't do it as I couldn't be neutral or unemotional enough towards the shocking and appalling behaviour of the public.

It was good to see that for once, the dogs weren't blamed for their behaviour but I didn't think it was necessary to show a staffie type dog having been PTS right at the end of the programme. I felt that it was a bit of sensationalism, the programme itself was factual enough.

Overall I just felt so very sad. Especially when the 2 bitches and a litter of staff? pups were taken from a house and it transpired that the pups were as a result of a Mother/Son mating. :-(

Dog Warden seemed traumatised and had understandably lost confidence due to previous experiences.Highlighted almost other things how difficult the job was bearing in mind the 'client group' they have to encounter on a regular basis.

watched it and was disturbed to see that the staff dealing with these dogs didn't seem to have much knowledge or training. The dog warden is no longer able to do her job properly through no fault of her own, she is traumatised over the previous attack and now afraid of the dogs and hence not handling them properly - what is wrong with her bosses, don't they monitor or care about their staff? The man feeding two starving dogs from one bowl needed his a*** kicking, basic logic tells anyone that is a bad idea, my 2 dogs are placid but one is a "foodie" and I never risk feeding them in the same room never mind from the same bowl. Hopefully it will make people realise that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners but realistically it will still only be the good owners that care - the bad ones never will. I know that the job of dog warden must be a difficult one, but I think maybe a bit of training on people skills would be helpful as I thought her very confrontational when the female owner let her dog poo outside and didn't pick it up. Overall it was good to see a programme presented from the poor dogs' point of view for a change.

That's a very good point about about the young DW's bosses, and what seems to be a lack of training, just goes to show how low down the list of priorities, dog control comes.

I thought all the wardens had very little prior experience of dogs before being employed, if any at all, maybe thats what happens when employers are just looking for some paper qualification as the decisive employment critera, maybe not, just a personal opinion.
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>I thought all the wardens had very little prior experience of dogs before being employed, if any at all, maybe thats what happens when employers are just looking for some paper qualification as the decisive employment critera, maybe not, just a personal opinion.

No idea if the system has changed now but at one time councils selected candidates for the DW job from anyone 'within' the council system. You didn't need any experience - you just needed to apply for the job.

I thought all the wardens had very little prior experience of dogs before being employed

The woman who had got scared had worked for the RSPCA for several years before they said.

For anyone who missed it: Click Here

I was surprised when I watched it, when the advertisement came on during corrie my first thought was here we go another look how tough my dog is sort of program. Good to see one putting blaim where it deserves bad owners/breeders.

I was swearing at the tv with the warden and the akita. First when they first tryed to get it she was calling it in a high pitched hyper voice. It was wound up as it was so why would you want to risk winding it up more. Then later on when she was shouting that's just going to make it worse for both of them. first thing students at work are told when they habe to go catch and restrain any of the animals is to approach confidently, quietly and slowley. If they talk it should be softly and gently not high pitched or shouting and screaming.
I think she has been let down by her boss, realy think she could do with some time off to get more training to build her confidence handling dogs like that and maby a bit of counselling may help. Sometimes we can't see or don't want to accept that something has effected us, her boss should be making sure the attack hasn't effected how she reacts to her job. But then again we don't know if that's how she would have handled the akita befor she was attacked.

Blimey I'm not sure whether to watch it or not now!! I do know that I wouldn't even feed my properly fed well socialised dogs out of the same bowl, they each get their ration in their bowl in a separate place and that's where they eat.

It is worth a watch LucyDogs - even if it is only to show you how NOT to do things. Personally, the most distressing thing on the programme (for me) was the "strangulation" of the Akita. The warden was afraid and I understand that and do sympathise (if she has been badly bitten previously), but she seemed immune to the fact of how close she came to killing that dog. He wasn't just 'hot' (!!!) he was suffocating to death from strangulation at the end of her pole! Staggering.

I found it an interesting programme.
It highlighted the importnace of getting a pup from a registered breeder and hopefully may make people think. The conditions the litter of pups were kept in at the flat with the owner who seemed out of it (drink or drugs perhaps?) were appauling and hopefully would make anyone think twice about the importance of the start to life a pup has.
The starving staff that was 1/2 its body weight yet as soft as a bun....owner got a written warning?!! Disgraceful!!
lovely to see the temperment of the akita after it had been rescued and spent a week waiting to be rehomed. Agree that the wardens really didnt seem to know what they were doing when removing it from the property.

Watching the programme has shown me that i definitely couldnt do that sort of job. Previously i would have said id give it a go. Im sure their pay at the end of the month does not represent the danger and abuse they face on a daily basis.
I did like the 'older' warden. She seemed very down to earth and realistic.

Yes the warden at the end seemed to know her job and be very sensible.
I wonder if the younger warden see's her behaviour on film, if she might realise she needs to rethink how she behaves round terrified and aggressive dogs ?, I certainly hope so.

I watched it just now and like you all was appalled at the way the Akita was handled. Not an easy task to get a frightened guarding dog out of a house but never have I seen it done so badly. I don't suppose her boss gives a damn as long as the job is done.
What this really brings home is that the so called "Dangerous" dog problem will never improve all the time people like the owners of the 2 litters of pups can breed willy nilly with absolutely no legislation in place to stop them. We live in a society that  allows people to do whatever they like. Dog breeding needs to be regulated. Only laws duly passed and upheld by the legal system can make any inroads into the "cash cow" breeding system that is rife in the UK.
I may not be popular in my views but breeding dogs should only be done by those who have big brother watching over their shoulders. It is not fair on good breeders I know but if you are a good breeder it would not effect you. Everyone who breeds a litter should be registered with some sort of body that can control things.
Personally I think the Kennel club is the best option and if the laws of this country gave them better support they have the kit in place to use. People bitch and drip about the ABS  The issue of health testing is something else entirely and I do see the point of those who dislike the scheme because of it. But those who are members and do no testing are breaking no laws and if at the very least there activities are recorded and monitored it would be a start, but if it was used properly, if every litter HAD by law to be bred under its umbrella and if it was expanded to include cross bred litters too, if the laws of the land insisted that all pups bred were registered and identifiable and if those who took it upon themselves to breed were made to comply, then and only then would we have some control over the irresponsible idiots who churn out these  so called Dangerous dogs. Pups who have been bred outside the law could be better controlled. It should be illegal to sell a pup unless through a breeding system of some sort. If it was found that pups had been bred outside the law then the owners could be brought to justice. All pups should have the equivalent of a log book. Registered at birth, the paperwork updated if the dog is ever sold. Make it the responsibility of the new owner to inform the governing body of the change. Any dog  walking the streets to have a tag with its number and tattoo or microchip details easily accessible and powers that make it possible for dog wardens/police or RSPCA (Not that they are much good to man nor beast) to stop and check without reason.  Any dog found to be classed as unregistered to be removed immediately from the owner and registered then re-homed through proper channels. No one who is not registered to have an unneutered dog or bitch. (Sorry I know we think is should be our choice but if you feel strongly about it there would be the option to register, and sometimes those of us who are responsible need to  accept that we all have to work together to stamp out the idiots).
Draconian methods I know but this just has to stop. We call ourselves a nation of dog lovers and we treat them like this.
The idiots will still breed but if this sort of system was introduced then in time the stupid breeders would loose their market and they are nothing without a market to sell through.
Its no use being  up in arms about it all unless you are prepared to make huge changes to improve things.
I think a first step would be to ban all advertising through pet shops and newspapers and make it against the law to sell pups  or give them away through pubs shows, car boots etc.. If someone is found doing it then remove the dogs without notice.
We who care know how to place pups in the best homes and often refuse if we do not think the home is suitable. We are in a minority but we get tarred with the same brush. We are the ones who can make a difference but sitting on our buts and whinging is not enough.
There are those who spend their lives rescuing dogs, one such woman locally thinks all breeders are wrong to breed ( She was somewhat subdued when I told her if no one ever bred we would have a country devoid of dogs within 20 years .. Never crossed her mind that someone needs to breed if we are to have dogs as pets ) Those who take on these poor homeless animals are wonderful and I admire them but there are not enough good homes and hundreds of dogs in distress.
Aileen
Sorry needed to rant...

Yes I have to admit I said something similar to my husband when we watched the programme. Only people with some kind of permit should be allowed to breed. It has got so out of hand in recent years. But it would need to be done a lot better than council licensing today -as to not allow puppy farming.

It is illegal to sell animals at a car boot without a license (pet shop license I assume) yet still it happens.

I can't get it to play on iplayer - have registered, but still won't play...

Jo

The woman who had got scared had worked for the RSPCA for several years before they said.

I remember that now, I think I probably got so awe struck by the ways they were going about things I forgot that bit, well it sure gives some insight into whats accepted by the RSPCA, that is if she was carrying out similar work for them.

No idea if the system has changed now but at one time councils selected candidates for the DW job from anyone 'within' the council system.

In london I dont think councils care to much either way, I think >maybe< one of their main concerns is to get people who will actualy go into some areas and do the job.

As regards the Akita, my thoughts now have not changed since I saw all that >no one is above the law< &' if the RSPCA do not take soome to court on a charge of - 'causing uneccasary suffering' - then the RSPCA is failing to provide a reasonable duty of care & failed to pay due dilligence - if they dont take action in their position of responsibilty & ample funds then I think they would be guilty allowing these situations to continue, & in in doing so, to perpetuate 'Insitutionalised Abuse'. Realisticaly they are the only ones, with more than ample funding, provided by the public, for the purpose of prosecuting such individuals.
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Same here, won't work from that link or on our Freesat box. :-(

Coming from the angle of an ex-DW I was appalled at the treatment of the Akita and the feeding of the 2 dogs from one bowl, utter madness and you could see the dogs getting more stressed. Back in my 'day' (my job was a new post) we had a few sessions on handling dogs and we didn't possess scanners, catch poles or arm protectors so took the softly softly approach which was much more likely to work, the same tactic worked with difficult people, you got a lot further with tact and humour than going in shouting and being aggressive.

I too watched this program, and I too was incensed by the warden, who shouldn't have been doing the job. I would go so far as to say she should be done for animal cruelty for they way the Akita was handled. I appreciate her nerves had gone following her attack but no one made her go back to the job. The two Ridgeback types shouldn't have even been in the same kennel together, feeding off each others fear, let alone fed from the same bowel. I've never seen anything so insane. As for the man breeding the EBS puppies to feed his habits, why weren't the pups removed, with their mum, from him.I just hope that improvements are implemented as a result of this program. And these are the "professionals" !!!

why weren't the pups removed, with their mum,

The general thinking on all forums (many now defunct) over this past 6-10 years is that the vast majority of UK mixed breeds rescues are full, if that is the case, I guess its not so easy to place 'removed' dogs anywhere.
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As for the man breeding the EBS puppies to feed his habits, why weren't the pups removed, with their mum, from him
I don't think dog wardens have the power to just seize dogs from owners do? (they like the rspca wouldnt they need a warrant and police) Also he wasn't realy breaking any laws as he wont be a licenced breeder he can sell puppies under 8 weeks old, they did look underweight and on the first visit she said to start offering them food then by the next he said they were eating from bows so he followed her advice so id guess even if wardens can seize dogs from owners as he followed her advice would they be able to take them?
(not defending him just that I don't think the wardens could do anything other than offer advice)

Managed to watch it tonight and I agree with you Peanut, neither of those wardens were remotely competent (though the one previously attacked had some reason, but should not have still been doing the job). I couldn't understand why they didn't remove those puppies, goodness knows what happened to them, the man had no idea how many he'd 'got rid of' and they were all far too young to go anyway, for all we know there might have been 4 stuck behind the sofa suffocated!! :-( Had to go and watch a few episodes of Sport Relief Top Dog afterwards which although a bit silly at least shows happy well cared for dogs!

> Had to go and watch a few episodes of Sport Relief Top Dog afterwards which although a bit silly at least shows happy well cared for dogs!

Oh I agree there, very silly, but what a joy to watch! :)

I completely agree with you

I watched this and my first thought was why is she in this job ! my second was where are the landlords in this? I work in social housing and we have very strict terms and conditions about dog ownership. We insist on permission being given by us which is dependant on the property (garden is mandatory) photos of the dogs and the hours the dog will be left alone if any. I work in London where status dogs are rife but as the Landlord we can work with the other agencies i mostly use the RSPCA and Police. (We have carried out free microchipping sessions also).   if the improvements required arent met their home is ultimately at risk.  why weren't any of the other authorities in attendance? For example the guy who didnt give a hoot about his litter - the housing provider /landlord should have been there. The RSPCA should have been called and if he didnt sign them over immediately then the landlord can start possession proceedings. This may sound harsh but very often once you serve the legal notice that if things don't change in the next 2 / 4 weeks then the matter will be referred to court as they are in breach of their tenancy they soon surrender them.

The Akita was abandoned as was the property so surely if this was a homeowner who had fled his lender would have a responsibility as well.

Hethspaw- I do understand shelters are full, but puppies are usually found homes quite quickly, pure or mixed breed.
JoStockbridge-I know that dog wardens do not have the power to remove animals but surely you agree that she should have got in the rspca so they could have got the police to take them. Actually, I am sure that at one point that warden said she had the authority to remove dogs, which showed how much she really knows about her job.
I do wonder if there will be a debate on this program. I'm thinking of channel 4's "benefit street". Would be good if there was but I doubt it, after all dogs aren't that important sadly, until that is, they get into the hands of stupid and cruel human beings.
Sorry for the rant.

Defernatly peanut he shouldn't have had them, but I don't think even the rspca would be able to do anything, would they be able to get a warrant to remove them as he followed the wardens advice to start giving them food? Yes he shouldn't be breeding and is a bad breeder but sadly he is allowed to sell the pups as young as he did (be good if they made the breeding and sales of dogs act apply to anyone breeding a litter, that would stop people doing that), and I'd imagin if the rspca threatened to take them (I'd guess it would taken them time to be able to get the warrant to entre and take them) he would prob just get rid of them even cheaper so he could still have made some money off them.

There's so many people like him breeding just for the money and as long has they don't have enough litters for the council to make money off them there not interested in what there doing, and if they are breeding enough without a lience often the council just makes them get a lience and that's it, maby a little fine but as there breeding enough litters a small fine is nothing realy.

Possibly he could have been done with selling them in public, which is against the law ( without a pet shop licence ), not sure if a pub would constitute a public place though ?.

>I don't think even the rspca would be able to do anything, would they be able to get a warrant to remove them as he followed the wardens advice to start giving them food?
Sadly, because the pups had shelter (indoors) and access to food (the bitch) there was no law being broken, even though we know it was an abominable situation. Therre were technically no legal grounds (though a million moral and ethical ones) to remove them, and to do so would have been theft. :-(

not sure if a pub would constitute a public place though ?.

Definitely is, it's even in the name. :)

So who watched LA dog wardens on telly tonight as a comparison? Don't think they came off much better. Also SCARY all those rescued dogs all wearing prong collars in their supposedly loving new homes. :(

What channel was that on goldmali? Didnt know about it.

BBC2 Louis Theroux's LA stories. All about stray dogs this week.

Thank you will see if I can watch it online tomorrow.

Just watched it on iPlayer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03zf2v3/Louis_Therouxs_LA_Stories_City_of_Dogs/

It's not for the faint-hearted, but I was left feeling we are already a microcosm of the same thing here in the UK, or if not, then heading that way.

BBC2 Louis Theroux's LA stories. All about stray dogs this week

I saw it, it was not just about stray dogs, it covered quite a few areas. I think it also highlighted the talents of several individual people dealing with dog problems/problem dogs.
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I think a first step would be to ban all advertising through pet shops and newspapers and make it against the law to sell pups  or give them away through pubs shows, car boots etc.

So what do you think would happen to the unsold pups?
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Lol, good point Marianne, re the pub.
Well in that case you would think the DW would have been aware of the law, she really is utterly hopeless.

So what do you think would happen to the unsold pups?

They should be put to sleep, as should all these Staffies, Staffy crosses etc in council kennels etc.  The public needs to wake up. A dead dog won't give rise to more pups or suffer from being mistreated, and unsold dead pups won't encourage the BYBs to breed more. Something drastic has to be done now.

So what do you think would happen to the unsold pups?

I have no idea, but I do not follow the idea that we should sit back and let it continue. That's like saying we should allow drug dealers to continue supplying drugs to users because what would happen to the drug addicts if they cannot  get their fix...We are reaching saturation point with puppies that are churned out for monetary gain and a large % of these pups will end up in bad homes, PTS at a later day for being "Nasty" or "Uncontrollable" or just "Not wanted" We have to start somewhere and I am a lover of dogs so much as it pains me to see dogs PTS it is worse in my mind for so many completely  unwanted dogs to continue  living their lives in rescue kennels. We have strong rules in place for keeping wild animals in zoo's entertained and kept in more natural surrounding so why the hell is it acceptable for a dog to live its whole life in a 10ft x 4ft kennel and run ? These rescue dogs are lucky if they get 1/2 exercise a day as no matter how much the wonderful rescuers try there are not enough hours in the day to give these dogs the life they need.
Better to be hard now and start to make things better than to be all fluffy and wishy washy so these practices continue.
Aileen

Louis Theroux and Strays in LA (BBC2)- Debate Here please

I was appauled watching Louis Theroux. up to 17 dogs a day put down purely to provide space, plus the so called trainers, one who did nothing but shout like some kind of sergant major in the park who clearly knew nothing about dogs. terrifying!! the warden at the kennels also didnt seem to know a huge amount about dogs.

Can you add this post to the other thread please.