I know i have posted a fee topics but im struggling so much with a bichon puppy 13 weeks now and we have done everything to train him when bites he goes out then let in after mins etc but his nipping is or seems very vicious!!!! Hes growling lunging and damn right hurting blood is being drawn now im at my wits end he listens to nothing!!!

Time out is needed as it sounds like he is getting over stimulated.

Try some simple training sit , paw stay etc with rewards to occupy his mind rather than fee for all playing .

Once he has mastered those he will be used to more structured training where he will be attentive and interested .

We cant play with him as when we get to he turns like that we shut him out for a good few mins then he comes in straight back at it so he goes out again we do this up to 59 times a day between us!! And have done this from day 1 no sign of slight improvement at all :(

This might have been asked already (I didn't read the other tread), but what are you feeding him on? Certain foods can turn dogs hyperactive, like E numbers can do for some kids. But generally speaking a 13 week old pup DOES act like this. Have you considered a good training class?

Have a read of The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - it's great, she's very good and full of common sense ideas for managing a whole range of situations.

Sometimes you simply need to distract and redirect your pups energy and focus... When all else fails give him something else to do - a trot around the garden is good when you are too tired to be creative:)

When a pup is overtired, silly and bitey I'd never encourage play as it simply over stimulates them when you'd really rather they had a snooze - I'd opt for training (if they are receptive) or passive chewing if not.  I don't exclude a pup from the room either but rather confine in a small area in the place I'm in.  As long as I was happy my pups needs had been met i.e. he wasn't hungry, didn't need a wee, had regular training and play sessions etc I'd sometimes take him to the utility room (where his bed is) and sort laundry til he got bored and flumped off to his bed.  A pup needs a lot of sleep but like toddlers they don't always give in to it very easily!!

Play vs training is the difference . Playing will heighten the excitement where as training will focus.

hi he is on raw from nutriment.co.uk :)

as i stated we rarely play now as he turns into tazmanian devil dog lol he is a very clingy bichon too he wont even sit in his crate when we are in the room in the day yet he is perfect at night? if hes sleeping on the floor as soon as someone walks out of the room hes up and following like a shot!! before you know it hes right under foot :O

What training are you doing then ?

we attend puppy classes every week so teaching the bridge word good and teaching sit and off at present

Do you have plenty of chewing things for him?  

I always have plenty of toys that would be interesting for a puppy or dog to explore with their mouths, different textures,  and things that they can 'kill'

So,  hard rubber toys with knobbly bits,  knotted raggies,  and soft toys.   NOTHING with a squeak.   Why?   Because with bitey pups, the biting is rewarded by squeaking and confuses them between biting their chewy toys (allowed)   and biting people (not allowed)  

Once you've got a good selection of interesting toys, then you can use them any time you want to interact with him.   When he tries to bite you, you put the raggy/soft toy in the way and he ends up biting that :-)

I was doing this on Tuesday with a friend's bitey pup, and friend was amazed at how well it works ;-)

Tone of vouce is very important too.   If you use high pitched voices, this tends to wind pups up, older dogs too.  A lower pitch voice is less exciting to them.  Talking quickly also can wind them up, and this usually goes with a higher pitched voice .   So talking in a low calm voice can help with exciteable pups :-)

One thing to remember too, is to keep hands very quiet around the pup.   Hands waving about are exciting and just begging to be caught and chewed.  Quiet hands don't do this.   So even if pup has grabbed your hand for a bite, it's important to not try snatching it away as this will cause the pup to bite down harder.   If you can, try and keep a toy at hand and get pup to focus on the toy.   I know this won't always be possible, but if you can manage it, it can work ;-)

Try stuffing a Kong with the food to keep him occupied. :)

Already been using stuffed kongs and he has more toys with textures than you can imagine lol thanks for advice we was told not to rellace hands with a toy as he will think hes rewarded for biting? Its so confusing i had my other dog many years from 8weeks old and never was she this bad :0 i will try you advice tho thankyou  :)

Are you continuing the training outside of the classes as well ?

Distraction by giving the pup something is a good idea as it will teach the pup that the toys are for play fighting and biting and not your hands !

> teaching the bridge word good and teaching sit and off at present

OFF is an odd one for this stage in your pups training and development.  In the context of the training you are receiving what does this instruction mean?

GOOD is also a bit vague

What curriculum is your trainer using?  I like the KC Good Citizens training (Puppy Foundation then Bronze through to Gold) as it's very focussed and well suited to an owners needs.  More info here. 

PS Do look at the book I recommended :)

>we was told not to rellace hands with a toy as he will think hes rewarded for biting?

  Who told you that?      Swapping things that can be chewed is an excellent way of redirecting the pups energy.   He doesn't know the difference between hands, shoes, chair legs and toys.   He isn't being naughty, or aggressive or bad, just a puppy :-)

By swapping toys for hands, or whatever you don't want him to chew, he learns to focus his chewing on the right things.   If toys are more rewarding to chew than hands, he'll soon learn to be gentle with hands.  But he can't teach himself that.

Pretty soon he's going to start teething and you really want him to learn to chew  appropriately or  you'll find he's chewing everything in sight ;-)

I'm big on trying to keep a puppy on an even keel, so he doesn't get so worked up (if possible!!)   And as fortime out - if needed fine, but mean it.   End the contact, yelp if you like but stand up and say No Biting!, taking him outside to empty and back into where he sleeps.  With a few biscuits.   If he is getting overtired, which may well be the case, he should settle down for a nap, after some brief complaining.   There's no point doing a time out if you let him back in with you again after only a short time.   Structure his life too, so there's a time for him, and time that's definitely not for him!    Shouting, tapping, using a spray bottle etc. doesn't work with a very outgoing puppy - he'll just come in for more .... yipee, I'm getting a reaction.   Dogs hate to be ignored so ending the play session, completely, should make him think.   Consequences for (unwanted) actions.

If there's anything (and there isn't much) I would take from Cesar Milan it's 'calm assertive'.    Which means don't over-react (even if it hurts) just take him out to empty, and then into his bed

I would also agree with the replacing hand for toy approach - it's worth trying at least.

thanks all :) puppy class the word good is followed by a treat thrown to the floor i did do all these classes with my staffy years ago and she turned into a model dog! so well behaved so thought i would take this one i will try the toy thing though see how he goes he really broke skin on my daughter yesterday growling and wouldnt let go she was trying to pick him up to put him out as he was biting feet fiercly!!

I'm maybe missing something but what are they actually trying to train by doing that?  What's the purpose?  Seems a bit odd!

Maybe you need to try a different training club?  Different styles work for different dogs.  What works for one won´t always work for another so it may be at least worth a go.

I'm wondering if this little dog biting your daughter is partly frustration at being picked up?

Many people treat toy dogs differently to bigger dogs, but they really need to be treated like a bigger dog.

At this age my own breed won't tolerate being picked up and would react in a similar way, but not biting as hard.  They prefer their feet on the floor.   We kept a collar and lead on the pup and just picked up the lead to take them out of the room ;-)

Bichons are bright little dogs, maybe this one needs to be using his brain more?     What have you been working on?

i/we are not giving into him as we know little dogs can get more attention leading to more problems he suffers really bad with seperation anxiety noone can even walk out the room to the loo without him running as fast as possible from a deep sleep to follow or screams the place down!! if we have him in his crate while we in the room he howls cries barks for ever and gets really anxious the only time he will be without anyone is at night he will sleep in crate all night no problems its at a point where i cant even pop to the shop :( so i think everything is a problem at the moment we re teaching sit and good at the mo which we were told to do and this is done at homealong with the persistent taking him out for toilet which again is proving difficult

Have you begun teaching a stay in class or at home yet?  That might be of some use for the separation problem as it will teach him that he is to stay wherever you put him until you return.  You have to begin small, right next to him and build it up slowly, gradually adding distance and duration of the stay so it may well help get you through the initial stages of the separation anxiety so you can get out of the room without him getting upset.

Havent got to the stay command yet this will be our second week at class but thanks will try it

You could also teach a 'settle down' command.
When your pup finally lies down and starts to doze off, say in a calm gentle voice "settle down, settle down now" a few times. Repartition of this over a number of days will get the pup to understand that those words mean lie down and go to sleep. Very useful when you have a young dog that will keep on going until she collapses and has to be told to go and have a sleep.

Can't offer any more advice than has already been given, except I was adamant that my puppy was the worst puppy ever and was vicious and out-of-the-ordinary for his chewing and playbiting. "My other puppies have never been this bad and I had them from 8 weeks" I would say.

Since then I have became a dog walker/pet sitter and I can tell you EVERY single owner has said the exact same thing about their puppy and every puppy is the exact same at this age. I promise you it will get better!

>this will be our second week at class

Just a thought.  You are expecting too much too soon.

It sounds like they are conditioning the word 'good' like you would a clicker? Ie click-reward

I also think you are expecting too much too soon.

If your pup is following you to bite at feet then you are best to have him on a trailing line. If he starts nipping calmly and quietly lead him to an area where you can quickly tether him and walk away without comment. Give him a suitable chew and praise him if he starts to chew on it.

By the way, the pup will not see the toy or chew as a reward for biting you he has to have something he can bite or chew on you are showing him what is permissable.

The idea of the tethering is to show him that interaction stops if he bites at you or your clothing. The long line means you don't have to pick him up and you can hold him away from your body until he is tethered.

Once he is calm you untie him and carry on. If he starts nipping again repeat, do this as many times as necessary until he twigs that nipping results in no interaction with you. This is bound to take a while and he will learn his lesson one day and then appear to forget again...that is simply because his brain is still developing.

If he is screaming and carrying on when you are in the house and in the same room it is likely this is not separation anxiety but simply frustration...he has worked himself up and the only and best way he knows to release all that tension is nipping and biting and then screaming (he may have enjoyed very rough games with his littermates). Some puppies have to learn suitable outlets for feelings of frustration and energy and again this can take time. I have known pups that behaved like little gremlins and left owner arms looking like pin cushions and would then shriek and scream for up to 20 minutes when put in the puppy pen for a rest after which they conked out. It took a couple of weeks and the pup began to learn to settle.

As others have said, do take a careful look at your pups food and treats and ensure there is nothing that might be making him hyper. Some dogs can react to various types of animal protein, others to cereals and then many pet foods have additives that can cause a reaction in some dogs. It might be worth a chat to your vet.

He is on nutriment raw nothing added i hope thanks for the info i will try it all :)

I think someone else posted Dr Dunbar's The bite stops here. The tethering is his idea and is for those pups that are more determined nippers and biters and that follow you to do it and do not respond to a yelp and being ignored.

Even raw could technically pose a problem if, for instance, the pup is sensitive to lamb or chicken protein. Sometimes simply changing diet can make a change. However, I'd first work on the premise that your pup is adjusting to his new home and is more fizzy by nature. His brain and body are all developing and the main thing you have to do is stay very calm and don't panic. Try to stick to a clear structure so pup begins  to learn if he runs after and nips you he will be tethered- you don't leave him or get upset or stressed but if he nips you there is a clear consequence every time. Try to keep a sense if humour too. The pup will pick up in any if your stress ir oanuc and it will make him worse. Don't let your kids puck him up. A lot of kids unintentionally hurt pups with rough or clumsy handling and pups grow into dogs that dislike being handled.

>A lot of kids unintentionally hurt pups with rough or clumsy handling and pups grow into dogs that dislike being handled.

You never spoke a truer word!  I once had a family looking for a Yorkie pup to go with their 2 year old Yorkie bitch.  I asked them to visit with the children and their bitch.  I was told that their pet didn't like being picked up and snapped if you tried.  It didn't take me long to suss out their problem.  I gently got used to their bitch and being used to toys, held her in close to my body when picking her up.  She loved the fuss and licked me.  When I put her down, one of the children immediately snatched her up as if she was a toy, she was soaring through the air, and started growling.  I said to the girl - if a giant put his hand through the window and snatched you and sent you soaring through the air, would you be frightened. 

I asked the mother if all 3 children were allowed to lift the bitch and she said yes.  She is there for them to play with.  They didn't get a pup off me.

>She is there for them to play with. They didn't get a pup off me.

Oh my word!

They wouldn't have one off me either.

I really can't stand people whho think of a pup/dog as entertainment for the children.   You can  usually spot these owners, they tend to say things like

"The dog  is great with the children, they can do anything with him/her"  

What I usually see there, is a dog who is pushed to the limit, and often 'on the edge'   :-(

Idont have kids (mine are 17 and 15 ) so they aere not constantly picking puppy up and yes the bridge word good is replacing the clicker which personally i prefer the clicker but oh well thanks all for your help appreciate it all :)

If you prefer the clicker, why are you teaching the 'bridge word' ?  

If you have experience clicker training, then there's no reason why you shouldn't use it.   As the pup's owner, you need to use what works for you. 

Have just been teaching a friend to clicker train her 9 week old pup today.    Within minutes he had twigged how to make the click happen and that a treat would follow.   She was amazed :-)

>If you prefer the clicker, why are you teaching the 'bridge word' ?

I expect that in a class setting using a 'word' is less distracting for others than lots of people clicking away.

Have moved to the clicker hopefully he will grap it :) hes doing pretty well past few days with lots of things i just hope i manage to toilet train him aswell because he just goes wherever he pleases if not watched constantly when out of the crate

Hi,
Good you are making progress, remember many pups will have one thing they find harder to learn and clearly widdling etc.. is the one your pup finds hardest.

Remember, if you need the loo the sensation of release makes you feel better and so the need to go overrides anything else. Your pup is still too young to control that urge. I think you have the answer, you need to watch him like a hawk all the time and give it a few weeks of taking him out every hour or even less.

We know your pup is going through an intensely bitey, fizzy time and overall this means he has not yet learned much impulse control- which also extends to toileting. Think of his nervous system slowly growing, like a tree, and the bits that control impulses are still to sprout. Your careful, constant and patient daily training will help his nervous system to develop and grow. What you iften find is that you are at the point if tearing your hair out and then the pup suddenly changes some of his behaviour and gets a bit better. Just keep at it and remember he is developing and some pups do this very slowly.

Make sure you leave some of his poop in the same place in your garden, this will help develop the assicuation of going outside. Ensure you clean every single little accident in the house with a cleaner that breaks down his smell- a wipe over with surgical spirit, after normal cleaning with washing product, does the job.

THANKYOU he goes to the same spot out in garden everytime which is great its just he tends to try and go in complete opposite direction to the door to the garden? lol which may i add is in my living room right next to his crate but no he decideds he wants to go right over to the kitchen door :o nevermind hopefully i will get there just hope that never toilet training a bichon is not true!! :) thanks again everyones been so helpful on champdogs! :D

thanks a bit rusty as was 12 years ago i clicker trained my staffy lol at the moment we are just click and treating to get him accustomed to the sound

Just remember, the more a pup gets it 'wrong', the more chances he gets to learn it, and get it 'right'.  

Regarding your pup wanting to go through the kitchen to the back door for a wee, why not make it easier for him and restrict him to the kitchen for a little while?  Easier to mop up and not so far to run.  And the more successes he gets, the more likely he is to be housetrained :-D

With pups, I use a puppy gate to restrict them to the kitchen unless I know that they've recently had a wee, and I can totally concentrate on them, until they've got the idea that wees go in the garden.   Once they have the idea, and they are able to get there faster, they are given more time in the living room, but still supervised :-D

kitchen is complete opposite direction to back door lol mine is in living room at back of house :) im sure we will get there although this mad 20 min he has growling and barking really biting hard isnt nice :/

trying to leave the bed area is a natural instinct when they need to go so he is showing signs of trying to be clean, you just need to help him understand that OUTSIDE is the place to be! A case of watching him and as soon as he tries to head towards the kitchen with that purposeful look in the eye to get him out the door asap!

Agilabs is right but i think this pup also has so little self control that when he has to go he gas to go, that is why you are better to take a deep breath and take him out every 30 mins or so, for up to two weeks, until a strong association with going outside is made. I'd also do a thorough clean of all the places he has messed on before, using first washing liquid and then surgical spirit.

This may sound like really hard work but it will be worth it if you crack it. I would also try to contain him for rest periods. If for some periods he is allowed to follow you around the house on the ground floor you could clip him on a line to your belt, this way you can monitor him and it gives you the opportunity to reward good behaviour.

If he starts to nip you can quickly unclip the line and tether him to the nearest place and ignore him for around 5 secs, until he calms down. As soon as he calms, praise and have a suitable chew or toy to give him. You may have to repeat this a number if times before he gets the message and it may take weeks and months to eradicate it altogether- remember dogs teeth up to 12 months of age.

I may be wrong but i have the impression that you have been shutting him outside? I think at his age he needs to see you but also see that you are momentarily stopping interaction. Also, as soon as he is calm, even for a second you need to be on hand to praise this and to show him what he can bite.

It could be that if he is shut out, even in a different room, that he is not getting immediate feedback about calm behaviour, as well as things to chew when he is calm. If totally cut off from you his caregiver and guide, he may simply get more frustrated.

Just wanted to add that as we head towards summer perhaps you can leave the door out into the garden open. As he learns to relax and feel comfirtable in the garden he may be more inclined to try to get out there on his own. At the miment it may feel too far from the nest and safety.

Also, spread his poos in a few places in the garden. This my help him feel more secure and you want him to feel he can go anywhere in the garden not just one area. Although in some ways it is great to train a dog to only go in one area what can happen with some dogs, though it is more often bitches, is that they grow up refusing to go anywhere other than in the garden. If he goes when he us out with you, say in the park, give mild praise.

Sorry about all these typos- my fingers slip a lot typing and it is a pain to go back and correct them all.

thanks for the advice and no i dont ever shut him outside only behind a door for literally a few mins but it seems to work if who ever he is nipping leaves the room tbh its just he is biting sooooooooooooooooo hard!! never had this with previous dogs i owned as pups just seems aggressive thats all at such a young age

I expect he'#s just more excitable and lacking in self-control yet compared to your other ones. And it's easy to ruly forget just how naughty our previous pups were!

Tracey, as well as some pups being more full on like this, as said previously in the other post, there is often a more 'bossy', 'fighty', 'bitey' pup but, also you often find this happens when the breeder does not spend an awful lot of one on one time with a pup and just allows them to run wild with siblings, it is why every day I take each pup to spend time with me alone to learn how to play with a human, as well as gaging character, it can also happen if a litter over-runs in weeks living with a breeder if left with other pups, if they do not have a dam or breeder to intervene and teach manners they are more 'wild'.

As has been repeated, just give it time, things will settle and you will forget these first few weeks, keep calm and think of England. ;-)

>just seems aggressive thats all at such a young age

As already stated, this is 100% not aggression.

What people tend to forget is play is about learning life lessons.

What is a dog?

He is a predator.  Even if he is in a fluffy white package, he is underneath a baby (albeit domesticated) wolf

So life lessons are all about hunting and killing and learning to do these through play.

Now if he were a baby lamb he would be practicing avoiding being caught and eaten, so lots of running fast jumping, pronking and also lying very still in grass.

If he were a baby rabbit he would bolt for the nearest burrow, run in zig zagging fashion, or lie very still in undergrowth.

A puppy learns to stalk, ambush chase etc.