Can someone remind me of the general procedure when someone complains?

Much to my miffage, environmental health have received a complaint about my dogs barking.  I don't know the details yet, but I imagine it'll be when I'm out of the house as they do not bark when I am here - they are not allowed.  There is a little barking when I'm not, but my recordings tell me it's usually less than a minute - IIRC there have only been 2 or 3 occasions when I've recorded more (I'm using the sound-activated sleep recorder app and it's set pretty quiet, it's triggered just by whining!).  Today I recorded 78 seconds of barking from Remy - entirely my fault and certainly not the norm, like an utter pillock I'd left him in his cage with a kong and Willow on the bed next to him with a kong so when he was finished, he was barking at her to get hers (the fact that he can't get it through the bars has not occurred to him).  So totally my fault, and not something that's happened before or will happen again now :-P  When I've recorded recently there's been no problem - even Phoebe who used to bark at every little sound has been totally quiet the last few times.

So, I am working hard to minimise barking so I'm not concerned about a negative outcome, I just want to make sure I'm familiar with the ins and outs of these things as this is not a position I've been in before - I've had one complaint in 7 years living here, that was from my detached neighbour and she spoke to me directly about it.  One incident of a lot of barking.  That's when I started recording them and splitting them up and I've had no more concerns from her since - I think this time it comes from the brand new neighbours who've just arrived on the attached side.  Charming.

Basically it's prolonged barking and/or barking at anti-social hours (11pm-8am). Prolonged seems to be for longer than 20 minutes at a time, and even the anti-social hours part would overlook a dog barking for a few seconds to alert to a sound outside at night, as long as it wasn't regularly, ie, every night or several times a night.

Trevor Cooper says that dogs bark - end of. If you are having trouble then keep a diary (sounds like you are already on the ball) including times of when you are home and when you aren't, plus when you are out with dogs etc. Some people will nitpick about any sound from dogs, as my former neighbours did, they were worried my dog's presence was hindering the sale of their flat so they complained to the council.... first I knew of any nuisance barking was a council letter. I kept a diary after that.... and having looked up the definition of nuisance barking, I quickly realised they didn't have a leg to stand on (and as it turned out it didn't sell for 18 months after I'd moved out, even when my old one was empty)

There used to be a dog in a garden not far away from mine, which was shut outside some days & barked non-stop for up to 3 hours at a time. It would often set mine off as well.  That's what I call nuisance barking - but rather than report them I printed off some helpful information about barking and put it through their letterbox. Don't know if it helped or not, as they moved away shortly afterwards in any case.

Just to add - if you get a letter from the council then they may/will install noise recording instruments to monitor the sounds. It doesn't sound to me as though the levels are anything to be concerned about. I'm not 100% about what happens if they do decide there is a noise nuisance, but from my TC seminar notes it is still a grey area and you would be given time to make effort to resolve the situation.

Council receives a complaint and then HAVE to send you a letter. At the same time the person complaining is sent a diary to keep for the next fortnight detailing when they hear barking and for how long. They are then expected to send it back -some do, some do not -and some just lie. When the council gets it back they look at it to determine whether there is a possible problem. If it appears that there may be excessive barking, the person making the complaint is asked if they want listening equipment to be installed. They can refuse, but if they do so many times, then they will not be able to make further complaints. The listening then goes on for a few days, you will not be told anything about it. The recordings are then listened to by a committee. If it is determined that there is too much barking, you will be contacted and given a chance to put things right. If it is found there is no excessive barking, you won't be told anything.

We had seven complaints at the old house, about barking. The first 3 times the neighbours refused listening equipment as they knew it would prove them wrong, having lied on the diary sheet. Twice they had listening equipment, twice it was proved there was no excessive barking. That's when they tried to make the dogs bark by banging on doors and windows when they believed nobody was in. When that didn't work either they instead made a complaint about excessive dog waste in the garden, that too was dismissed.

In other words, they can cause you a lot of stress, but it takes a lot for further action to be taken and you will be given opportunities to put things right IF it is proved to be a problem.

they were worried my dog's presence was hindering the sale of their flat so they complained to the council....

These days people would be better off NOT making a formal complaint, as any such complaint now has to be mentioned when selling a property.

> When that didn't work either they instead made a complaint about excessive dog waste in the garden, that too was dismissed.

Funnily enough, I also had the RSPCA round after a complaint about dog waste, at about the same time as the noise issue. Doesn't it make you sick, the lengths people will go to! Not to mention the huge stress it causes. Probably why, in the doglaw seminar, TC said "Move!" if you start getting any complaints.... :(

> These days people would be better off NOT making a formal complaint, as any such complaint now has to be mentioned when selling a property.

I think they shot themselves in the foot without realising that, and then resorted to more underhand means.... of course if I was no longer living there then the complaint wouldn't be ongoing.... would it?

Probably why, in the doglaw seminar, TC said "Move!" if you start getting any complaints.... :-(

Yes, he said that when I went as well, and I fully agree. 3 years of untold stress and not being able to go out AT ALL unless somebody was at home, it was horrific and the relief when we moved one of the best moments of my life. In fact packing the dogs into the car (yes we had less then, I think 9) and leaving for the last time is right up there with winning BOB at Crufts and getting married! (I won't even count giving birth to my children as that was never nice LOL, the nice parts come afterwards!)

> es, he said that when I went as well, and I fully agree. 3 years of untold stress and not being able to go out AT ALL unless somebody was at home, it was horrific and the relief when we moved one of the best moments of my life.

I can believe it - it was 2 years for me, and the latter part followed the sudden death of a neighbour/friend who would dog-sit and cat-sit for me if needed, and in fact I spent quite a few evenings a week at their place with my dog - when I look back at it, it was a horrific time, not only coping with the loss of my friend but then having the complaints as well.

When I become a billionaire (as if LOL) I'd like to start a town for responsible dog owners only, lots of land, houses not very close, and everybody being understanding about a bit of barking. :)

> When I become a billionaire (as if LOL) I'd like to start a town for responsible dog owners only, lots of land, houses not very close, and everybody being understanding about a bit of barking. :-)

Count me in!
We can even have our own Championship dog shows as well... plus agility, flyball, rally and OB...

environmental health have received a complaint about my dogs barking.

The way thats written it seems they have contacted you already , presumably no one else (neighbour) complained to you first.

Different councills have different approaches in the begining, but its not that usual a council contacts an owner first without the owner first being made aware of the problem by neighbours.

They have a variety & flexibility of options, they can take immediate legal action without evidence or they can get evidence themselves & take you to court without further notice. However, most may give you a deadline to cease the noise nuisance & if that works then no more about it except they keep the incident on file for futor ref if needed.

Different councills will vary on their approach but if it ends up in court with evidence its 1) a criminal offence + a criminal record, 2) a max of £5000 fine, 3) once someone has been convicted then each seperate offence per day is a seperate charge if the councill means to persue other offences - I have no idea about penalties such as ASBOs or other penalties.

Hope that helps
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Nikita,

Wonder if it might be best to go over to the new neighbours with a bottle of wine as a way of saying welcome to the 'hood and using all your behaviourist skills see how conversation progresses. They may be people who simply dislike dogs but if you can get some kind of rapport going they may soften. It could be that they love dogs and then you'd have to try to figure the source of the complaint.

Unless the dogs are doing something that you are really unaware of (and it sounds like you've covered all the bases) then it seems like someone is out to cause trouble or just doesn't like dogs.

Will keep fingers very tightly crossed for you. In your shoes I'd grit my teeth and try to make friends with the new neighbours.

Marianne,

Goodness. If you had had CCTV you could have done them for trespass!

A friend is going through exactly the same at the moment. One neighbour (who they've had issues with over the years concerning many other things)has complained that her dogs are barking so the council have to take the necessary action. The thing that is frustrating my friend is the response from her dog warden (he deals with all noise issues) as he is very lackadaisical about the whole thing.

The system seems very unfair, to post an appeal she has to pay £200 which is refunded if you are successful. She hasn't got that sort of money to loose so hasn't done so. She is now waiting for a visit to find out what is going to be done.The neighbours on her other side say they have no problem with the dogs, hardly hear them. They have recorded the dogs when they're at work and it's hours of the dogs sleeping!

I've been to one of Trevor Cooper's seminars and yes his advice is just to move. 

As mentioned my friend is under the impression that this will now affect the whole street as it will be recorded that there is a noise abatement order on her house.

What I can't understand is why people buy houses without looking at their immediate neighbours? Surely your new neighbour was aware you had dogs before they moved in? It's the same as people moaning about Church bells after moving into a house next to a Church !

What I can't understand is why people buy houses without looking at their immediate neighbours? Surely your new neighbour was aware you had dogs before they moved in?

This was how I felt, but when I went to the Trevor Cooper seminar the bungalow next door to ours was up for sale -it isn't very close, perhaps 100 yards away, and they are our ONLY neighbours. However the previous owners had lived there for decades and were pretty hard of hearing, so had no problems with our dogs. Now we were scared we would end up with problems again. Hence when people came to view I deliberately let ALL the dogs outside and hoped they'd bark as much as possible. I put the question to Trevor Cooper if somebody could really complain if they bought a property where they knew from the word go that there were barking dogs next door, and he said yes, they can complain as much as they like, the fact they were aware of it when buying makes no difference at all. :(

Luckily  our new neighbours have dogs, horses, cats and chickens and have been absolutely great.

> What I can't understand is why people buy houses without looking at their immediate neighbours? Surely your new neighbour was aware you had dogs before they moved in? It's the same as people moaning about Church bells after moving into a house next to a Church !

Completely and utterly aware - they are the grandkids of the lady who lived there before.  They were visiting most days for a couple of weeks last summer and saw me out in the garden with all the dogs, so there is no way they aren't aware - and waved hello then.  In light of which, going straight to EH without talking to me first has just really, *really* put my back up.

HP - they have contacted me, the bloke from EH was here yesterday to follow up on (surprise, surprise after the replies on here...) a previous complaint from last week about excessive dog waste!  Which came to nothing, no problem.  Rather coincidentally (snort) I've now got a noise complaint too!  He mentioned it on his way out, apparently the letter is on the way but I haven't seen it yet and he didn't know the details.  He'd just noticed it on his way here.

Problem I have is that moving is absolutely in no way an option - I am flat broke and in debt following an injury in October, things are picking up but it's a LONG way from moving, years.  And houses down here just aren't selling - there's one opposite me been on the market for months, it's in better condition than might and it's just sitting there.  One further up the road took a couple of years to sell and it's absolutely gorgeous, and the market was better then.  So I'm stuck here unless I win the lottery!

Oh dear. It was not clear that you already knew them and they you. Conciliatory approach probably won't work then. Aside from agreeing to any noise monitoring by the council could you get your other neighbour to perhaps write a letter of support- assuming you have a good relationship with them since the complaint 7 years ago?

Does that make any difference? From speaking to my friend it's up to you to have to prove the dogs aren't a nuisance and even if the complaint is dismissed another can be made straight away and the whole process starts again!

As an aside we recently had new neighbours move in opposite and I was worried about their reaction to my dogs. I then found out that they are relatives of a friend. They have told her they don't hear my dogs at all but are fed up with the dog that they live next to always barking. Now we never hear him and was surprised that they said this, so I've come to the conclusion that dog barking problems are very subjective as I know my immediate neighbours hear my dogs barking(I've heard them when in their house) but we also hear their dog bark so it's give and take.

Hence when people came to view I deliberately let ALL the dogs outside and hoped they'd bark as much as possible.

I've been inclined to do similar, within reason...... you could find yourself up for obstructing a reasonable chance of a sale if you do this.

And yes, taking this to the point of compaining to the local Council would have to be declared when selling the property - neighbour disputes have to be  declared.    Shooting in the foot, is right.

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Theres no question about it, if you do not solve the barking ASP you, your dogs & your life are spriraling into an abyss.

You can solve it now very easily & quickley, get an anti bark collar, order today & you can solve the problem tommorow.

From what you've said, I dont trust whoever is causing these problems as someone who is honest - if you get anti bark collar leave the video cam running & even when the barking has stopped have that camera running each time you go out. It sounds to me that the person whose doing all the complaining will not fall short of makeing things up & it needs to be covered, at least for a few weeks anyway.
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get an anti bark collar, order today & you can solve the problem tommorow.

That only works if there is only ONE dog -and the dog has a strong enough character to cope with such punishment. Far from all do! I was desperate enough to try it, quickly realised it absolutely does NOT work when you have more than one dog, as one dog barking close to the one wearing a collar will set the collar off, so the dog is actually punished for NOT barking. That was quite apart from the two dogs I had that learnt to both quickly empty the collar (bark as much as possible and put up with the punishment), and to kick at it to direct the little box away from their face, so the liquid never hit them.

That is such a good point. Were these two dogs Malinois? Clever dogs of whatever breed.

One Malinois, one Malinois cross.

> Theres no question about it, if you do not solve the barking ASP you, your dogs & your life are spriraling into an abyss.

Little over-dramatic ;-) But I know what you mean.  There has been some noise from them today, I've had to be out longer than I wanted to but it's allowed me to identify some new problems - one of which is Opi, who doesn't normally make a sound but she needs a bump up in her thyroid meds.  I've noticed she's generally more antsy lately, I hadn't realised it extended to being home 'alone' too though.   That'll be addressed tomorrow anyway.

It's still not huge amount though - there was one 3 minute burst, most of which was the above dog, the rest was a few isolated one-minute bursts (and not constant for those minutes) then the odd woof here and there.  That's over a 2.5 hour period so hardly dreadful.

I'm away for a fair while one day next week but I've already arranged for a friend to come in and sit with them, can't do that usually but by luck they're free that day.

> You can solve it now very easily & quickley, get an anti bark collar, order today & you can solve the problem tommorow.

Yep, fantastic.  Except that if you notice my signature, I'm dealing with 9 dogs - not one.  So I could get an anti-bark collar and turn dogs that currently do not have any anxiety over me leaving (except the above dog which I know is medical) into dogs that do; and if it were a spray collar, most likely come home to find diarrhoea everywhere from one who has a phobia of spraying things and reacts by getting ill from the stress, and MUCH more barking from another who also has a phobia of them and reacts by barking her head off.  Genius.

I will keep recording them after this though, that way I can have information to hand if (probably when) this happens again.

That only works if there is only ONE dog -and the dog has a strong enough character to cope with such punishment. Far from all do!

More like a never do or never do very well. I take it you mean the Operant Conditioning "punishment". Spray collars are not an effective punisher, they rarely work & thats been known for well over a decade, if it does not work then its not an effective Operant stimus on the individual.

I was desperate enough to try it, quickly realised it absolutely does NOT work when you have more than one dog as one dog barking close to the one wearing a collar will set the collar off, so the dog is actually punished for NOT barking. That was quite apart from the two dogs I had that learnt to both quickly empty the collar (bark as much as possible and put up with athe punishment), and to kick at it to direct the little box away from their face, so the liquid never hit them.

If you had researched properly you would have been told all that anyway - Hardly surprising though, they're supposed to work from the pump technology inside that technology is a technology of antiquity & goes at least as far back as the Summarians & Classical Egyptian. The spray collars were always breaking down & even if they did spray the eddects were only temporary with most dogs, though with some dogs they did work. I hope you asked for your money back.

Masterplus & Abiostop Spray systems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTBXriek5E

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More like a never do or never do very well. I take it you mean the Operant Conditioning "punishment". Spray collars are not an effective punisher, they rarely work & thats been known for well over a decade, if it does not work then its not an effective Operant stimus on the individual.

Ah so you actually meant electric shock collar -big surprise, NOT. Well that would be even worse, wouldn't it. Dogs aren't stupid and would quickly learn it only happened when the owner was at home, and it isn't barking when she's at home that is the problem. That's quite apart from all the other obvious reasons for not using one. Mind you, it might work quite well on the neighbour.

I meant tens e-collar anti bark systems, they are the most popular & effective anti barks & are all subject to the latest digital developments.

Its easy enough to get an idea of all the e-pulse collars by watching the various vids, see below, theres always workshops around in summer just find one & book if you wanna to do some research, Martin Deeleys was the last of the summer workshops that I know of, anyone can do their own research at a workshop, maybe email Martin Deeey see if he's coming to UK to do one again this year, first link belowL

Workshop & fees 2013
http://www.internationaldogschool.com/index.php?option=com_jcalpro&Itemid=29&extmode=view&extid=13

E-Collar vids
Conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05EDolAErRk

E-Collar Learning principles demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-8CyBCG0LE

E-collar training vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSIMTx7U5uc

Invisible fence 2002 instruction vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-guKeVKyHWk
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> Mind you, it might work quite well on the neighbour.

Now that I will agree with you on!

As far as the dogs go though I would rather look at the CAUSE of the barking and address that than just put a band aid on the symptom, which is all a collar will do.

Spoke to the dog warden yesterday as I finally received the letter.

He's confirmed that the complainants will have had a letter with diary sheets to fill out - and that most people don't bother.  If that suggests a problem then they'll go for noise recording equipment and if that identifies a problem then I'd be invited down to listen to the recordings with them, and discuss solutions.

However - he said it rarely gets that far.  I explained what I'm already doing and what the reasons for the barking are (and that the new neighbours have been DIYing from day 1 in a house that's been silent for 7 years) and he's very happy with that, he said the level of barking I'd recorded yesterday wasn't *too* bad (total of 30m spread in little bursts over 3hrs 19m), but he's glad I'm already taking steps to lessen it.  It doesn't fit with the usual nuisance they deal with which is barking when neighbours are trying to relax in the evening or enjoy their garden, and my dogs don't bark in the evenings or in the garden at all.

I started Opi on melatonin yesterday to reduce her stress while the new meds kick in (will then take her off it gradually), I've got a freezer full of filled hooves, hollow bones and kongs, and today I've been out doing the walks and activities for the morning for about 2 hours and I've recorded a grand total of 5 barks, so I'm well on track :-)  That much improvement in less than 24 hours, and without needing to resort to an anti-bark collar or punishment of any kind.  Magic ;-)

There'll be more of a test shortly as I'm off out to work leaving everyone here, but only for 90 minutes and as Opi has been the main problem (and was at her worst yesterday during the morning walks routine, and I did it exactly the same this morning), I'm not too worried.  Will be interesting to see what recordings I find when I come back though!

Sounds good so far, have everything crossed for you!!