as anyone out there done a half brother/half sister,mating,they are related both on the sire side, both of them were out cross mating,so it will be a close linebreeding,if i use them together,both of them have produced litters.without any problems,hips and eyes are very good,both their offspings have done very well in the show ring one of his has gain a r,c,c, at two at crufts,and got her jw,
and the dam side has produced a bitch that as gain her jw,and she working well in the field side,

both of them have good temperament,i know her faults against his,his against hers,he has sired four litters and hope one one on the way,she only had one litter two years ago,

i think that the irish setter that won crufts,was half borther/half sister

It would depend on the breed. Some breeds appear to have a large gene pool and in reality don't. Make sure you find out about this aspect. In a breed where one dog becomes a "Crufts" champion it is easy to keep line breeding to this one dog. However everyone else is doing this also so the gene pool becomes ever narrower. This is one reason I think there should be a "Special Champions class", as a dog which wins more than three CC's is no more a champion than one which has won three CC's.
I would ask myself "Is there a special case for this mating?". I know of such a mating in flatcoats and the resulting litter was small, of the surviving pups two died from heart failure at age two years. I know of another that appear to be ok, although I must admit to not following through on the litter.
It is worth remembering that the pups will be throwbacks to the grandparents, so it is not so much the parents who need to be CC winners but what are the grandparents like?
The answer is research the breed in question thoroughly first.

....think you may be talking to the converted - Polly!!!! Do you know who Briedog is?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

hi polly

you must know who i am,i got verdant wispa,roseberrie jet,and their sire is foss dkye bronze justin,wispa dam is hebberden black mole of verdant,which this line is most belsud, rush dam roseberri winfred which has wizardwood,if you want email at andrew.durrant.@tinyonline.co.uk.

I know in Pomeranian's there have been fairly well known breeders who have done close line breeding and had good dogs result. I think if their other side is a total outcross there isn't really much of a problem.

Of course you will end up with dogs who are fairly close in Spanish Water Dogs, as most of the dogs in Spain are from the Ubrique lines.

Hi,
Yes "preaching to the converted"! Well Terri, I know Bronze Justin was a really good moving dog, I judged the Hargreaves young bitch at Merseyside Gundog recently and she moves really well just like her sire. My BOB at Merseyside was Verdant Treacle Toffee! Did you you see the write up in the papers yet? I get pretty fed up when reports are sent in and then don't appear. So if you judge and want the critique to appear let me know and I will put it on pedigree dogs as I do the notes on that site for the breed. (Having said that I haven't managed to do that this month due to having to do extra work. :-(
I still wonder if we are not limiting our gene pool by constantly using the dogs we do. In the show side try finding a dog or bitch without Shargleam Blackcap in it and on the working side try finding a working dog or bitch without Tarncourt Cavalier in it! Now try to find a dog with neither in, bet you won't find many lines to choose from! With each passing year we are losing lines which we will need for the future of our breed, as less popular dogs are not being used, and breeders are not prepared to look out for dogs with little or no Blackcap or Cavalier lines and less inclined to use these dogs. Breeders should look to the future with every litter they breed, not to the immediate future but the long term benefit of their chosen breed.
Have either you or Jo read Stephen Budiansky's book "The Truth About Dogs". If not and you would like a taster go to www.theatlantic.com then go through their archives to July 2000. Very interesting thoughts in these articles.

There is no such thing as a Crufts Champion!
(Its one o9f those little things that REALLY niggles me!!!)

I hate that too, it isn't even as if winning BOB or even BIS at Crufts would make the Dog into a Champion (as they do at some of the big shows abroad). A dog could go BIS at Crufts, and never become a champion (unlikely, but quite possible), has it happened I wonder?

Actually yes the Lisblanc PMD was never shown again & won I believe just the CC BOB Group & BIS at Crufts Don't think he won any other CC'c

Actually there are Crufts Champions my friends Dog is a Crufts Ch He went to Crufts with one CC & won the Obedience Championships & was made up

Dogs are invited to compete at Crifts in the Obedience Champioships & the winner is made up even if they only have 1 CC before Crufts

The Class at Crufts is not called Championship Show C But the Crufts Obedience Championship

I did realise that a ticket at Crufts in Obedience made them up (equal to two), but getting to Crufts as an Obedience dog is a whole different kettle of fish!

Now wouldn't it make things more equal if only CC winners could compete at Crufts in the breed. don't wory folks only joking!

It would put it in perspective for those show people who look on the other events as nothing really to do with Crufts, yes there are some!

I used the term "Crufts" champion to be lazy! I don't like the term either. I would rather use a dog which won 1st at our breed championship show than a CC at Crufts, unless of course they are the same dog! Crufts throws up some funny old results from time to time.

I have been in Labradors quite a long time but only when I closely linebred did I produce two champions
the very first dog I used belonged to a man who regularly bred half brother to half sister,or grandfather to grandaughter he had a lot of success and his dogs were Typey the older end were very clever at breeding one of the top lab kennels totally linebred but then you double up on faults. I dont breed a lot but I know you have to take a gamble.

Curious.... Why briedog?

i like what they both have produced,rush litter verdant orange cream and her sister mint crisp,both clear eye tested and low hips score,but one of the eye spec,wife,mrs v yellowley had a litter from him hopeing and knowing that there was no eyes problem,wispa produced three out of her litter one hip score 2,and two 6, one of them eyes clear,both of them have not got the two dogs that you said in their pedgrees,rush has been dna,wispa as not,but brie her dauther.as been dna and for colour,if it comes down to it both have produced good coloured livers,which is getting better in the breed,wispa is from black to liver,rush is from liver to liver,both grandparnets on the dam side are live,with no cancer, problams,but you know the sire die last year,plus i know that both of them are heathly dogs,and i donot lie about a situation in the breed ,i will tell if i had a problem with health.
wispa s mum produced orange cream/mint crisp. rush was the sire.three of his litters are by dams that come from belsud/waverton lines, two from working line with trioaks raffle behind them,thats all i can said at the moment about them,

A half sibling mating is often done to fix the feature of an outcross, such as an import. You have to be sure that it is the shared parent who has the qualities you want, and is low on the faults you don't want.

It is also a method often use to check for any less desirable traits in the MEW line, as they are more likely to come to the fore with this close breeding. that is why it has been successful with those who know what they are trying to achieve, but it has to go hand in hand with strict selction. I waws told the closer the breeding the striucter you have to be, as faults set this way are much harder to eradicate!

It is certainly a very successful tool in small livestock breeding. I used to breed rabbits, and it was a patterned breed, so using close matings on a successful animal worked well, if any were unthrifty then they got eaten! To be honest though I never noticed any reduction in fertility or general health, but I only bred a few generations, (of bunnies that is).

I am now totally confused!!

your confused,what ever mating you do its a gamble in live,so i no wiser what to do.but i have done my homework,

I think you have misread my replies after the first one. My comments about the dogs I put up at Merseyside was made purely because I happen to like them and they are from lines similar to the ones you have. I know you would never mate anything with out making sure the health aspect was thoroughly checked out. I then went off topic as I was making a general comment about the way people choose the stud dog of choice, and I suspect many do so because it is a "big winner" rather than because it has anything in common with the lines they have. It does worry many people in the breed that we are losing so many good lines all the time.
Will you be at Crystal Palace show?

no i cannot get there beacuse of work,but i did unstand what you said about the dogs you put up at mersyside,