I would like to ask you for an advice. One of the puppies we have bred has been diagnosed with slipping patella that needs operation as soon as, so I persume it us quite serious. New owner has contacted us about it expecting us to cover the cost of the surgery and refunding the money for the puppy. Father is fully tested, mum is not however there is no signs of her having patella. We have no experience in situations like that that's why I am asking you for advice. What would be best to do in this matter.
Thanks for your help.

Without further information, it's impossible to form an opinion.

How old is the pup?

Is this a breed where slipping patellas are a problem?

Father may be fully tested, but were his results excellent?

Why is it that you bred from the mum without testing first?

Was the pup sold with the usual six weeks insurance?

Do you have a report from the owners vet?

We are both going to my vets tomorrow to get a second opinion.

Puppy is a 7 months old English Bullterier. All the pups were vet checked and with 4 weeks KC insurance, unfortunately new owner didn't buy or extend the insurance.

I do understand there is no law for that and its down to morals of the breeder. I would like to know what are the routines in such situation.

Has injury been ruled out?

Well, new owner never mentioned injury. But I hope the vet will be able to judge whether its an injury related or not.

I'm afraid that I believe it's just bad luck.  No breeder can see into the future.  If I buy a male pup, intending to use him for stud, is it the breeders fault that he turns out to be infertile?

If I buy a really well bred bitch that is looking to have great potential, is it the breeders fault that the potential doesn't arrive?  So my high hopes for a super winning career for this bitch are dashed.  Can I blame the breeder?  No.  You pays your money, and you takes your chances.

A bad luxating patella at that age can change by when they reach 18 monthd, it is very common on my breed for them to be loose until after 12 , months which is why do not allow grading untill full maturity as they grow at such different rates. Also I have read a lot that suggest vets can actually damage them themselves messing with them as puppies. I would want to know if it really does need doing asap or if a wait and see approach would be recommended.

If the dog is now 7 months, I don't see this is your liability AT ALL.   There has to be a cut-off point when it comes to breeder liability ..... and this puppy has been out of your hands for ages now after all.   With many of these conditions, rearing/environment plays such a big part in whether a dog reaches adulthood still sound.   If you are liable, where does this stop!!   It's good they are willing to bring the puppy to your own vet.  

Jean SW's answer is right on, for me!!    Small wonder so many breeders are now including a timed 'disclaimer' in their sale contracts these days.   People are buying LIVING BEINGS after all.    It is all about 'compensation'?

If this is a problem in the breed (I'm assuming it is if the stud dog was tested for it) and mum wasn't tested there may be some liability but I would think the new buyers would have to take you to court to claim it.

It's wrong that you bred from a bitch not tested, it is what every breeder is supposed to do to make sure that we are not passing on any hereditary defects, if the owner can prove that you did pass on a genetic disorder and took no care to prevent it, which you did not, in not having the dam tested they can quite rightly sue you if they go through those lines of a solicitor and court.

However as has already been said, it could just as well be down to the care the dog has been given, it is so easy if a dog is allowed to jump and climb stairs or land badly on walks to knock things out of joint and grow badly, ruling out any fault of yourself, IMO it would be very hard for a vet to prove one way or another what has really happened.

I suggest you A) Get your bitch tested, to prove she had no problem, not just look at her and say she is ok, sometimes problems are there but do not show to the eye until later.   B) Make sure that you also get proof that the grandparents have no problems.

If you do those things the owners can only blame themselves for not taking out insurance or having other funds to operate, how silly of them they are supposed to be offering their dog a lifetime of care, their dog deserves better,  they cannot in any way make it the breeders responsibility, bit cheeky of them really to think you would pay the vet bills it's their dog now, not yours, unless you as a breeder are at fault.

If you do all the health tests, there is no come back in things like this, you are always covered as a breeder, bad luck is just that bad luck............. if all is well with your line genetically, don't be bullied into paying for something that was out of your control, but....... you need to get your bitch tested pronto.... if at fault then pay for the op.

People asking for their money back/and vet bills has happened a few times lately in our breed too. They have ended up at breed council so discussed by all. With us it has been hips. One case being an animal 2 years old from 2 hip scored parents. Anything could have affected this (diet/trauma) but no it HAD to be the breeders fault and they tried claiming all vet bills and compensation would you believe. Another case the animal was over 3 , similar circumstances. It did however make us all feel "that could be us". You can only do your best and if you have tested the parents what more can you do? It's not even as if they wanted to return the animal and ask for another, the bills ran into thousands the poor breeder didn't have.
I personally have always thought I'd replace up to a year, no questions asked really, but after that felt it wasn't necessarily due to my breeding as food and environment plays a part. I always encourage people to take out insurance so surely cannot be held to account if the don't. That however is easier said that done as disgruntled owners go straight to the breed council (and the kennel club) and none of us want that do we so we can be held to ransom. Puppy buyers now seem to want so much for their money. Is it because puppy prices are ludicrously high (in my breed) or because of the internet I don't know. I know myself I have bought in a bad mouth, bad hips (shown up when scored) and bitches bought for breeding who never had a pup their whole lives but I never thought to demand my money back, it was "bad luck". I feel for you, I really do, as we all try our best. If it was me I would give them back the money they paid for the puppy and take the puppy back, or take the puppy back and offer a replacement, From the other cases I have seen they want the penny and the bun....all vet bills paid but to keep the dog and it has run to thousands.

They want you to pay for op and the price of the pup AND keep the pup? I have little sympathy for them.

How greedy.

They want you to pay for op and the price of the pup AND keep the pup? I have little sympathy for them.

How greedy.

Totally agree.  I wonder who put them up to this.   And actually, although of course breeders should be making sure of the stock they use in a breeding programme, I'd maybe draw the line re testing for patella lux. unless it's endemic in a breed, in which case, maybe.   Even using clear stock doesn't mean this won't pop up.... depending on the mode of inheritence if this is only an inherited problem, which it's not.   Testing for this doesn't come under the KC/BVA Schemes, does it?   And again, after 7 (or perhaps slightly under that length of time) months, they are coming back at this breeder for the cost of the surgery AND the price of the puppy AND wanting to keep the puppy?   Good luck with that.    I hope your vet supports you (OP).

I'm really glad my dog-breeding days are over, given what's going on out there these days.  

Vets have an awful lot to do with these situations as well scaremongering and making new owners think they have various problems when in reality they don't, many problems disappear with growth, if you talk to someone who knows of the breed.

I remember one vet insisting to an owner of a Bulldog that their dog needed a £2,000 op for a limp, another vet laughed and said it was nothing to worry about with rest it would go - indeed it did, I wouldn't put it past this owners vet to have scared the life out of them and led them to believe it is down to bad breeding, (it may be, who knows?) but the best way to cover for that is to have most things tested for any Bull-breed I would automatically test for Patella Lux as often the weight of head or short legs can cause a problem, I think in the US for Bulldogs anyway it is part of their testing that and the heart.

Today I would suggest that breeders cover for as many health issues as possible, people want perfection and are very willing to make others pay for it.......  :-(

New owner has contacted us about it expecting us to cover the cost of the surgery and refunding the money for the puppy

Wow, how could I have missed that?

Sorry, I would offer a refund on return of the pup.

The Kennel Club doesn't mention Patella testing in breed health tests

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=3063

My pup was diagnosed with luxating patellae soon after I got him (from a reputable breeder).  When I told her she said she would refund the purchase price but she never did. I did feel a bit miffed about it at the time but 12 years on, and having chosen not to have surgery, my dog is fine and his dodgy knees have never been a problem.

Thanks everyone for answers and your opinions, very appreciated.

We have been to the vets, he was diagnosed with level 2/3 patella and advised surgery. Unfortunately he said he wont be able to confirm whether it is genetical or post injury condition. We asked to do the x-ray, we didn't hear from vet about it yet, he was supposed to ring me back tonight or tomorrow to discuss it.

Dill, so would you cover the cost of the op, refund and take the puppy back?

I would say that any liability should not exceed the cost of the puppy, 'it's value' in monetary terms that they paid you.

It is their choice to have surgery and would have been wise to Insure as anything can and has happened.

raki

I have just searched to find this topic, as I knew that it was one that I had explained what happened to me when I had a puppy buyer come back to me when their bitch was over 3 years old.  Please scroll down to my second post if you don't mind.

As you will see, it was the owner at fault, not my breeding.  The problem just went away once they realised that they had told the vet how they had caused the problem!

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/143021.html

Dill, so would you cover the cost of the op, refund and take the puppy back?

I'm not Dill (LOL) but NO.    Pity your vet wasn't more forthcoming with this but I suppose he's watching his rear too!   Perhaps once he's looked at the x-ray he'll have more to say about this.

I'd just add that one of our Bassets slipped down some steps when she was around 12 months, as I remember.  At the time our then vet said he felt the patella was 'loose' and surgery was scheduled for some time ahead.   However, when we took her in, he palpated again and ..... decided it wasn't bad enough to be operating on, so didn't.   We took care of her for some months, restricting exercise (and avoiding those steps!!).  She never had a problem after that - and neither did any of her puppies.   Or their puppies...... she was our foundation bitch.   She was rather straight in the stifle however, and I always choose a dog who excelled in that area which we did improve on in successive generations.

How far you go with a refund etc. might depend to some extent on how much 'damage' these people could do to your reputation.   IF you made a refund for the cost of the puppy, that would, for me, be based on taking him back.  I honestly don't see making them a refund AND them keeping the puppy.  Maybe a contribution towards the cost of surgery might be a good idea - but be careful.   Doing this could suggest 'liability' on your part, in the eyes of the law.  

Quite honestly the bottom line is unless the puppy was wrong, confirmed by their and your vets within 48 hours of purchase, this is a Buyer Beward situation.   I'd still go with potential developmental problems, which may well come right as he matures.

Add -   Re vets scaremongering .... I've just remembered a puppy I sold at around 10 weeks with the advice, as always, that although he went with a Health Certificate from my own vet, his new owners take him to their vet for their own check.  Within 48 hours (the following Monday evening) they phoned me to say their vet had suggested the puppy was 'all wrong' and wanted to take him in for full x-rays, keeping him in all day.   I had hysterics.   I asked them to bring him straight back so we could both go to my vet - they refused and went ahead.  He'd left me on the Saturday and by the following Wednesday spent ALL DAY with this vet being x-rayed (and knocked out to do it).    What did they find on x-ray ..... NOTHING!!!  Oh and I had my vet speak to their vet before this was done (he'd not speak to me).   Not only had this soured my relationship with these new owners (unnecessarily) but I wept to think of that baby being not only sent to a new home, but then all day in a vet so soon afterwards.

Raki just wondering whether the dog in question had been limping and not able to pop the joint back in the kneecap himself or whether it was found during a veterinary check, I know that my vet automatically checks for P.L now makes me feel sick, watching him lift the back legs up seeing if he can pop the kneecap out, I dare say it is a money making scheme  as it is a new thing they do now....... however with him only being 7 months he hasn't had time to grow muscle around the joint yet which if a level 2 would help to hold the joint in place. If he is overweight and not exercised enough this could also be a consequence of P.L.

If it pops out all the time and is painful fair enough, I can understand surgery, what degree is the dog suffering or is he in pain at all?

Personally Raki, I would not commit to paying for any surgery yet, you don't know if this is genetic, you will only know if you have the dam checked, don't get yourself into thousands of pounds of debt for something which may not be your fault, don't do it.

Do not refund the price of the puppy either, you only do that if you are having him back or if you do, you put in writing that this is the only payment for the dogs lifetime that you will refund as a goodwill gesture, but once again, you do not know if this is breeders error yet, whether or not breeders would automatically check for P.L is neither here nor there it is what you are being accused of passing on, so get your girl checked to cover yourself. If she has no problem, then please do not pay for this surgery, it would be a silly thing to do.

Mamabas - that is disgusting, some vets!!!!

>I know that my vet automatically checks for P.L now makes me feel sick, watching him lift the back legs up seeing if he can pop >the kneecap out, I dare say it is a money making scheme as it is a new thing they do now..

Surely a vet trying to pop the patella out is likely to cause a problem in some dogs, even if there isn't one originally?

And of course, once it 'pops out' then it's more likely to do so again, and again.

A friend of mine had a Mini Schnauzer with slipping patellas.  The vet x-rayed and told them it was likely caused by his bounding up and down the steps of their almost vertical terraced back garden since puppyhood.   No operation, but they had to put a gate at the bottom of the steps to stop him running up and down them all the time.

In answer to Raki, regarding refund.

See Carrington's post above.    I can't put it any better really.

Putnam patella check is £20-30 with an experienced vet. Have the mother checked and if clear hold your head high and advise the owner to hold tight an not line pocket of the vet. Unless dogs in pain I would not have surgery and expalin that puppiesbwill be puppies and notntoo much exercise and limit charging around as thats when injury occurs.  Not genetic fault!

I am not a breeder. But as a dog owner I feel this is what dog insurance is for. As the new owners chose not to get dog insurance then surely that is their problem and not something that is within your control.

At 7 months the bones are very far from being fully formed, sounds more like the vet might well be trying to make a £££ killing from the owner - At best the owner should get a second opinion, preferably from a vet selected at random from a trade directory, for his opinion whether an op should be carried out at all on the condition >at this age< the bones have a long, long way to go before they can be classed as 'the finished thing'.

I am not a breeder btw.
.

Off the subject do you know how much they have been charged for the patella operation?