Hello everybody, I'm new to champ dogs so please go easy on me, have been recommended by a friend who says it's good for information.

I was wondering if i could be offered some impartial advise. It's a big of a long story.
I have own, bred and shown dogs for quite a number of years. I am in toy breeds. I own four dogs, three bitches and a castrated male. My bitches, one is mother and the other is daughter. The other is non related but reaching retirement age. I have only ever bred two litters in my dog career which makes me a bit of a novice.

I am a member of the breed club and have always abided by the recommended health testing schemes. My dogs have always passed with flying colours, they have all had testing under sedation and all the recommended DNA testing and I have breathed a sigh of relief when they have came back clear.
Up until recently, patellas had never to my knowledge been something I should be concerned about; being somewhat off the radar compared to the other testing. At a show recently I picked up a form re patella testing and contacted my vet to see if he could complete the test, another box ticked.

As I thought, they all tested fantastic, 0/0 in each leg, except for my one bitch who is the mother to my youngest show girl. She had one litter two and a half years ago. She was grade 4/3 in both legs. I was and still am horrified. Two days later she was spayed, and will be undergoing surgery to fix her patellas once the specialist hospital can fit me in. She had never, ever shown signs of skipping, limping ext. but the vet advised me as both were bad there will be very little sign.
However, this leaves me in a predicament as to whether or not, her daughter, my show girl, who I have spent a lot of time, energy, and money into health testing, (who has passed everything - including her patella check) should be bred from. Conformation wise, they are separate dogs. There were 6 puppies in this litter. I have contacted every other puppy owner and have paid for them to be tested. They have all tested clear. My vet is convinced that patella issues are hereditary, but cannot seem to give me a definitive answer as to whether her daughter, Cassie should be spayed or not. She is now two and a half, so her bones have finished growing.

I cannot speak to the original breeder of my girl, we have fallen out due to differing opinions on testing. She is an old timer, who believes it pointless until the kennel club enforce the tests and make them stream lined. I believe do what you can when you can. However, I do not want to make rash decisions about my youngest. My heart is broken as due to work, time and financial commitments I cannot keep the dogs I have now, and bring in a new brood bitch with space to keep pups from litters and continue my hobby, I will not Rehome my dogs they are part of my family. I have been so excited about this mating, I have chose a dog that has done well at show, as well as having been tested. This line I own is self whelping, excellent mothers, and of sound conformation (well, usually) which is rare for what you see now.

I would like to know what people believe I should do, I have asked a few people, some have said spay some have said breed to a clear dog. Some don't care and simply panic thinking their names will be dragged through mud!

Any advise will be appreciate. And please , I already feel guilty enough for not having had this test completed sooner.

I am sorry I cannot help too much. Is this the same as hip scoring where some say that the results can be as much the result of over excercising etc Can they be affected by wear and tear. Personally I would say if your current dog is OK then surely that is a result of improving your breeding and mate to a dog with low scores. I have seen the result of a dog I bred having an awful hip score. Scored at 5 years and running around on laminate for that time. I don't own him.
Incidentally he is a much better mover than his sister that I kept and if we were in the ring together, beat me every time.

Thank you for your response. Yes you would think mate to a dog that is also clear, but having been threatened to be sued (yes really - but a puppy owner whose dog has a grass allergy!) I am incredibly wary of the responsibility bringing these dogs into the world could mean if they were to develop problems.

My house is all laminate flooring, but I have always been careful with her, I've had her since she was 3 months old. I cannot believe I haven't picked it up before now and could kick myself because now I think about it, her movement has been somewhat off for a long time. I had simply put it down to her being on the plump side and getting on a bit.

I think you face a real dilemma, since it is thought that patella issues are either inherited or the result of trauma. Is it possible that your older bitch might have damaged herself when growing up? Mind you the fact that both legs test high might point more to an underlying problem.

The canine inherited disorders database advises that those tested positive should not be bred from, nor should their litter mates , parents or grandparents. If I have understood your showgirl is over two? If she has recently tested 0 and so have her litter mates that puts a more positive gloss on things. The problem is that the mode of inheritance is thought to be multifactorial and so the genes for it can still be there but just not expressed. However they can still be passed on and come out in a later generation.

Why not try to speak to someone at the inherited disorders database and see what they advise. Does your breed club have a health council?

The tragedy is that the breed could lose a wonderful and ethical breeder like you. You deserve the highest praise for the way you have approached this.

This is the dilemna freelancer, I think in my heart I know the right this to do is to end the line, keep them as pets and maybe hope I win the lottery.

I have been so lucky, people tell me time and time again, two big self whelped healthy litters. Our breed is plagued with c sections. But my luck has ran out it seems..

If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have any. Sigh. And thank you for the lovely comments, I do what I can but I could have done more and would have not been in this situation now.

Nothing angers me more though than when these people who don't test for anything point fingers and say I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

I'm hoping you'll also get input from the highly experienced small/toy dog breeders on here like  goldmali and toolz and jeanSW
It might be worth PM'ing them.

>> The canine inherited disorders database advises that those tested positive should not be bred from, nor should their litter mates , parents or grandparents.

The problem is that excludes an awful lot of dogs who might otherwise be very good examples of the breed. It might be do-able in a numerically large breed but is a small one it could remove a lot of the potential breeding stock.

Well I am no expert but I don't think I would spay this bitch myself. It's a bit like hip dysplasia, we don't know for certain just HOW it is inherited. You can get pups with poor hips from two dogs with great hips, and obviously you would not breed from the affected offspring. But if you got a pup with fantastic hips despite one parent having a bad score (not that you would do such a mating, but hypothetically), would you discard it from breeding because of the one parent? If the grandparents etc had good scores, I don't think so -you'd assume the one affected dog was a freak occurrence, as it can happen.

I have only ever had one pup who had any form of patella luxation. Both parents clear, grandparents and great grandparents too. 3 pups in the litter, two of them fine, but the third had just a mild case -one side fine the other 1. It came as a bolt from the blue, nobody could work out how it had happened, but there it was. Obviously being so mild this dog isn't having any problems whatsoever, but she has obviously been spayed. However, I also have her half sister (same mother) who is clear and I am breeding from her. With there being just ONE affected dog amongst many that are clear, I would have a litter and see how they turn out. It would be entirely different if problems kept appearing, but here, in your case, you have had ONE affected dog, one that is very much the odd one out.  The daughter herself is clear, and you even made sure to get littermates checked. I think it is a bit too early to give up. I am sure most of us will have had one odd problem happen that we can't explain, that then never happened again. You are proposing to breed from a HEALTHY bitch after all.

Well put. I do not enough or indeed anything about patella luxation.

New York/Goldmali,

good points both and there is always the problem of balancing possibly dodgy genes against all the other stuff we don't know about.

for the OP I don't think you are going to get a clear cut answer-though the advice of the experienced breeders here is well worth taking on board.

I think much depends on how strong you are and how able to take in possible fallout if anything did occur down the line and that is not to say it would at all, but you need to feel comfortable to go ahead knowing that it is not risk free and that some people will always play the blame game if anything does crop up.

I'm not sure about the method of inheritence for this, if at all - and some conditions do skip generations, plus she could still be a carrier but if she's tested clear, I'd go ahead and breed from her - if possible using a male who has tested clear also, although again ? the possibility of him being carrier too.   I'd suggest this condition could be down to incorrect stifle angulation?

To be honest, there's always the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.   It may sound odd to ask, but would a failure be noted on the registration papers of any offspring - as is the case in my breed with a Gonyoscopy fail?   This eye condition in my breed is only a 'predisposition' for glaucoma, not that the dog will develop glaucoma, and as a result of this appearing on offspring's papers, many otherwise excellent dogs are now removed from the gene pool.   I know - only perfect should be bred from but .......

Unfortunately in these days of litigation, the risk of being sued is always there but if this was my bitch, if she's otherwise a good example of her breed, I'd go ahead and breed her.   Choosing a male who is structurally good !!!

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/musculoskeletal/patellarluxation.htm   Just to chuck this into the mix - note what it says here about breeding!!!  And what it also says about this condition, and trauma...... could your older affected bitch have suffered some trauma ???

I would imagine that to large extent as with other orthopaedic issues heredity is important but not the only thing affecting outcome.

I would for instance breed from a bitch who had good him scores if one of her littermates were poor, (yours are all clear, the moths is affected) but I'd take extra care with mate selection.

After al even with conditions that have a known pattern of inheritance not all will be affected, and you would breed from those that are clear.

You older bitches result shows that really Patella testing ought to be brought in as an official scheme as the grading already exists (a bitch I exported had hers done under the US scheme, and this is a medium size breed ).

So I would certainly want to test from now on, and would include it as a condition for lifting endorsements from future offspring, and ask that any male you wish to use is tested too.  Hopefully other breeders will follow suit eventually.

When I bought my foundation bitch in 1992 the breed only stated to universally hip score (my bitches mother wasn't done, but sire was), so a start has to be made, and after a time perhaps you can persuade the breed club to make it a requirement, as small bree4ds are known to be susceptible.

> think in my heart I know the right this to do is to end the line,

So wrong, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  This is just one aspect, sadly a health one.

It is one reason gene pools are shrinking, if you throw the baby out with the bathwater, what you have left may have even worse issues when the genes are more condensed.

You have a healthy bitch, mate her to a healthy dog and continue test offspring that are to be bred from.

No one can guarantee all the pups they breed will be healthy, it's impossible, one can only cut the odds.

Had you not tested you'd be breeding regardless, (like the rest) having tested you now can breed with more care. so your already in a better position.

> Had you not tested you'd be breeding regardless, (like the rest)

Yes and I am sure this is one reason some people are not testing. So they can carry on breeding regardless!

It may sound odd to ask, but would a failure be noted on the registration papers of any offspring - as is the case in my breed with a Gonyoscopy fail?

It would not be noted down officially anywhere as there is no patella luxation testing scheme in the UK. All we can do is have our own vets check our dogs and maybe write a certificate saying they have done so and what they found, but there is nothing official whatsoever.

To my knowledge, there is no official patella testing system, my dogs were scored using the Putnam patella test by my vet who happens to be an ortho specialist. The test scores them on a 0-4 basis. 0 being not luxating and 4 being severely luxating.
I would be a liar to say I had not heard of the test, but as I own a small, heavy boned breed, there were other more pressing matters at stake to be tested for, life threatening and debilitating illnesses that threaten the future of our breed. It had never really been something I had considered essential for a number of different reasons.

But as I say, I was at a show and there was a form floating round for the patella scoring system. And I had them booked in for vaccines so thought why not kill two birds with one stone. I approached it with arrogance really, thinking that they would all pass as to my knowledge LP is very easy to spot due to 'skipping' and limping. My bitch had never done either. As I say her movement was off and she has stopped showing, but I thought she was slowing down to being slightly on the heavy side and also her age. The vet advised me, when both are equally luxating the dog cannot favour one leg over the other and unless your actively looking for it, for an untrained eye can be quite difficult to spot.

What worries me is a- the disease being passed on to offspring, b- having LP issues in my line, c- being held liable/sued for any pups sold as pets that may develop LP. It will not show itself until the bones have finished growing.

The operation itself is incredibly expensive, frustrating for the dog involved and not to mention incredibly painful. I don't want my name dragged through the mud as I am the first to criticize people for irresponsible mate selections.. But the line is in many ways very strong,established, healthy and long living.

c- being held liable/sued for any pups sold as pets that may develop LP. It will not show itself until the bones have finished growing.

To be honest that is one thing you don't need to worry about. If you breed from parents that are tested clear, then you have done all you can. And also, unless you are a licensed breeder (as in by your local council) then anyone buying a puppy from you have no real come back -it is caveat emptor i.e. buyer beware. It is up to the buyer to satisfy themselves that the puppy they are buying is healthy, and if it isn't, as a hobby breeder they cannot do much. They could potentially take you to small claims court claiming a pup with LP was not fit for the purpose it was sold, i.e. as a pet, but as you had tested the parents, then you cannot be held liable. See here: http://www.doglaw.co.uk/contract.php

I'm not saying that alone is a reason to breed, of course not, just that legally, you wouldn't need to worry.

You can check for LP at 8 weeks, but any pups showing problems then may also be fine once older when the bones have stopped growing, so it isn't fool proof. However it is a good indication.

I have a breed that is numerically small 400-500 registrations per year.   Many of those working bred, not show bred and tested.

The breed also, some years ago had a problem with Copper retention in the liver - Copper Toxicosis.

When testing became available -after alot of hard work by breeders, which is ongoing -   the advice was to only breed from clears/carriers.   Affecteds weren't to be bred from at all - obviously, whether they develped the disease or not, and there are no guarantees that an affected dog will ever develop CT.    Carriers only to be bred to clears,  or clears to clears.

This was to enable breeders to breed away from the problem, but without narrowing the gene pool so much that it produces other problems.

The test still isn't all of the story, it's more complicated than first thought and work is still continuing, including having post mortem biopsies on every dog, whether tested clear or not.   But the number of affected dogs has dimished so much,  it's not often seen now.   Of course, no-one knows the state of affairs in the working-bred/pet bred dogs as most  of them remain untested  :-(  

MamaBas,

The mode of inheritance is thought to be polygenic...just like hip dysplasia. So pretty difficult to nail down absolute factors, the only way to control/reduce clinical expression is by careful breeding. So technically you could view this as breeding from a potential carrier which, especially in a numerically small breed, most would support if the stud is clear.

Does your breed club have any advice for mating strategies in your position?

Having no official breed PL scheme probably indicates that few are testing, the knock on effect of this is you could easily find yourself in a similar position if or when you restock.

If you proceed to breed an affected, you may find it difficult to source a tested (and passed) stud.....tricky prospect trying to breed out something hardly anyone tests for.

Very few grade for PL in my breed in the UK, I took the decision to grade and find my baseline.
If my bitches had failed,I suspect I wouldn't breed ....but if it was my only brood bitch......I suspect I'd try to breed it out..
As its a toy breed litters may be small, can you do a test mating and keep most and let a friend have another?

I often give pups away to control their onward breeding/testing and monitoring.....it could be a way to ease your worries.

but in this case the young bitch is clear as are al her siblings, it is the previously untested dam that is affected.

Had the OP simply decided to test from now on starting with the breedable animals, she would not even know the dam was affected.

I really see no issue with breeding from the clear daughter especially as the littermates who share the same genetics are all clear also.

I would move forward with my clear bitch and r3equest any stud I used to be tested and only use it clear, in the same way as you would with HD or heart testing etc..

Well, toy breeding is my only area of expertise!  Well, quite a lot of experience.  LOL

My breed club has no compulsory tests, but, for my own satisfaction, I cover testing for areas I know to be problems in some toy breeds.

With breeds that have very small litters it takes so bloody long to get to where you want!  I'm lucky that I have an extremely well thought of vet who does some tests for nothing, and others at mates rates, so I do as much as I can.  I do have rather a lot of dogs.  :-)  Although the majority are neutered.

My main target has been my dedication to breeding a self whelping line.  Lots of breeders shrug and book a section.  I've had 3 bitches that have had patella ops over the years.  My first back in the late 70's or early 80's.  One of the reasons that I do get this checked out early. 

In your position, given that this bitch has tested clear, I would certainly not discard her from your breeding plans.  Knowing what goes on in some toy breeds, I would class you as a very reputable breeder.  So go ahead, have your pups.  :-)

Also I would just like to add the interpretation of the putman sceme is down to each individual person,  I have had several scored twice by different vets and one graded a 1/1 the other a 2/2 because she could move them even though they returned to the grove. She interpreted the wording differently to the other vet.
I have done a lot of research on sweedish databases as they recognise it and all use it and I have found with the lines ive studied no definite pattern and often a odd 1/1 etc popping up from lines clear for generations.  As brainless said with breeding you roll the dice and all you can do is make the risk minimal.
There is no guarantee even when you breed to clear to get clear pups.

I really must read more carefully.

This is interesting, and I go back to the 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.   In my own breed, I'd be focusing on the conformation of both partners - is Patella Luxation there in animals who have a good back end, correct angulation or can it be there even if the animal is structurally sound I wonder.    In other words would it just be there, as inherited in those animals with good back ends, or just in those with poor (straight) stifles, which would be visible.   Some conditions most certainly can be there, in carriers.  But does this apply to PL.

Again, I'd go ahead and breed your bitch to a sound male.   You could include in your Sales Contract a disclaimer if something should occur to the puppy outside a certain period of time after sale.   That should, I'd suggest, virtually eliminate the potential for being sued.  And many conditions do boil down to rearing as well as what's inherited?

Bloody, I guess the odd low score out of lines clear for generations could be down to trauma- slippy floors and what not at a young age can wreak havoc with joints. what you say is very interesting though and shows how hard it is for those who want to do the right thing in their breeding.

I don't think many were down to trauma as there was 3 litters of 4 pups that 2 had LP, one was a 2/1 the other a 1/1, put perfectly possible for some of them. I wish a lot more research would be done into this as it is a fairly significant problem in the smaller breeds but thankfully not really a life limiting problem unless a severe grade.
The thing with the sweedish is they are very open and do not hide anything, over here in my breed it is fairly common but we find it hard to get a complete picture as people are scared to put in the results that are not perfect so you get a skewed idea of the prevalance.

Boody, I agree! as thinking about it those scores, if from the same litter, could be result of trauma if say there is a very slippery floor. On the other hand, one might argue that there is an underlying weakness,hence a greater propensity to injury...very hard to call.

c- being held liable/sued for any pups sold as pets that may develop LP. It will not show itself until the bones have finished growing.

To be honest that is one thing you don't need to worry about. If you breed from parents that are tested clear, then you have done all you can.

I wouldn't do it as I'd hate any dogs further down the line to be affected and to know that I was involved somehow by breeding from a bitch with an affected dam. As a puppy buyer I would be furious if I had an affected dog and then found that the grand-dam was affected, the breeder knew and still chose to breed - I would definitely be suing that breeder for breeding from a bitch whose mother was not fit for purpose (in terms of breeding). Breeding is about making tough decisions and mating from the daughter is not morally something I could live with. You have been very unlucky and it hurts even more that others chose to breed in ignorance but the whole point of testing is to make informed decisions.

Marisa,

Then you had better give up on dogs altogether.    No dog breed is completely free of disease and even wolves have been found with hip displasia.

The best any of us can do, is to test and breed from the best of the tested.    As has already been stated, Luxating Patella, like hip displacia, has an element of environmental influence.    Even the best joints in the world will suffer through damage and ageing.

To not breed from dogs with good results in a breed that has small numbers and small litters is to narrow the gene pool too much, meaning that other problems, possibly worse than LP could rear their ugly head.   

We aren't talking about Staffordshire Bull Terriers or Labradors here, with huge numbers bred yearly, but a breed with Small numbers and Small litters.

I would definitely be suing that breeder for breeding from a bitch whose mother was not fit for purpose (in terms of breeding).

Well you could try, but you'd not get anywhere -as I explained. LEGALLY the breeder would have absolutely nothing to answer for.

>As has already been stated, Luxating Patella, like hip displacia, has an element of environmental influence.

I totally agree with everything that Dill has pointed out.  And just to show an example of this awful hereditary disease, will relate what happened to me several years ago.

I received a phone call from someone who had had a pup from me.  They said that their bitch was limping and a local vet had quoted a huge fee for them to have a patella op.  As they lived less than an hour away I asked them to come to me, and I would pay for my own veterinary hospital to examine the bitch, and I would pay for any necessary surgery.  Bear in mind, she had been sold with breeding restrictions, and they had done as promised, the bitch was spayed. 

I booked an appointment with the vet who had examined the patellas on the dam of this bitch, who had no problems.  He found one knee on their bitch came out easily, the other not at all.  During his questioning, the woman said to her partner, oh there was that time when she screamed after leaping off your mum's sofa.  :-(

I had made it very clear that you don't let young Chihuahuas jump off anything.  These people would have had me paying for an operation for a condition that they had caused.

Thank you to everybody for your responses certainly some food for thought.

Marisa - thank you for your opinion. I'd like to point out to you that is that attitude that stops breeders such as myself wishing to breed healthly puppies! It does anger me when somebody who buys a living animal (that has the capability to change at any time) and threatens to sue if any thing is wrong with that puppy. Myself, I have had bad luck before, costing me thousands of pounds and more of it the heart ache involved, but life goes on and it is what it is, we cannot make guarantees about a living breathing thing. Two supermodels could have a positively ugly child.

If somebody had done all they can (ie test the parents) what more could I ask of them? The grandmother is very little to do with the mate selection. It is only 1/4 of the DNA involved. If the other lines are strong and clear, numerically the risk is very low.

In my opinion, having tested for not only for LP, but spinal issues, and DNA testing for major hereditary diseases , and a strong self whelping line I have done more than most. If I had come on here, boasting of my tested litter, I doubt anybody would have even asked re the grandparents. I'd also like to point out - as a general point, none of her puppies have ever experienced any health problems associated with the breed - which for the age they are is fantastic. The odd skin complaint but nothing that a quick vet trip hasn't sorted. In comparison to the unscrupulous breeding infiltrating the numbers, these are not big issues.

out of the pups I have bred. Not one has ever been used to reproduce. All puppies were sold restricted, with a contract stipulating they would only be lifted if the bitch has relevant tests done, and conformation wise the bitch is a good example. Male dogs will never have restrictions lifted (part of the stud contract). One lady contacted me, and as healthy as her dog was, I have seen better examples of the breed and explained for what she wanted (another pet) it would have saved her time and expense to get a puppy from somebody else and referred her to a friend, I will not tell lies to people in order to appease them or flatter my own breeding. And much the same if I were to have a litter, I would be keeping a puppy back myself, testing the offspring. The others would be sold as pets, with a contract stating they should take out pet insurance and that at two years I will assess the bitch.

I wish all breeders were like you Pringles!!

Hi, i would like you all to know i did go ahead and breed my bitch, she self whelped a lovely litter of three babies. two of which will hopefully be shown. It is early days as they are only now over 5 months old - but all three so far have tested 0/0 in each patella,. The vet seems to think this is a brilliant indicator of luxation in the future too. so it does not always work to throw the baby out with the bathwater! i know the test shall be re-completed at 12 months, i just wanted to thank those who told me to go ahead and breed cass. x

I think when I was looking your history would not have worried me. You Have gone above and beyond and I think the advice here was fantastic. At least you investigated so any owners know this. I would hope No one who owns dogs goes into it thinking they will be problem free. You just want to get the best odds possible. This site does that with the advice they impart.

Really fantastic news about your latest line.

Pat