Hello everyone, just needing a bit of advice from experienced doggy people. Last December my dad heard of a caucasian ovcharka puppy who at 14 weeks was going to be put down due to his owners being unable to cope with him, my dad drove to Sheffield that night and picked the puppy up after he'd done some internet reading. In all honesty I was not overly keen on having him but my dad was determined not to let a puppy die. Anyway, we brought the puppy home, named him bear and took him to training classes and puppy parties because of his breed socialization and training became key, he become a well rounded and extremely sociable individual. A dog to be proud of. However, recently we've notice a change of behaviour, within the last 3 weeks in fact, he's gone from a big cuddly goofball to a complete fruit loop. He is kept in a large kennel with a run and is brought in everyday for love, my younger brother who is his primary caregiver went to get him out of the kennel and he is flew at the kennel door with his teeth out and growling. He has done the same to me and my mother. So we promptly booked him in the vets who says there is nothing physically wrong with the dog, he however thinks he has a dominance issue and needs to be castrated ( I am dubious).

We as a family are at lost to do or for an explaination, he has gone from our wonderful, cuddly and obedient bear to a monster that we are now wary of. My brother hasn't stopped shaking since the incident.

Any ideas?

You need to get in touch with a specialist in this breed, if not, you may end up on a worse position than you think your in at the moment, try their link as an intial contact.

http://caucasian-ovtcharka.co.uk
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You need an experienced, positive behaviourist.  Dominance like this is a myth - dogs cannot be dominant over people, we are different species.  Neutering will not help.  An ovcharka is not an easy breed, and neutering now could potentially make him a lot worse - training first, then neutering later, maybe.

I would also get the dog more thorough vet checks including bloods (including a thyroid panel), sudden changes in behaviour like this are often down to a medical reason. 

Another possibility is something scaring him while he was outside, or a fear period - all pups go through two.  How old is he now?

ETA I do know of a very experienced person in this type of dog but I can't remember her name atm, I'll try and find out for you.

My first thought was is he simply resource guarding his kennel?

Probably guarding bones, toys, food or even water bowl. Doorways and pinch points may be his issue.

He sounds like a teenager guarding his safe place, but I could be totally wrong. Please get in touch with a qualified behaviourist; this isn't the most domesticated of breeds and need careful training and socialisation.

There is a breeder?/owner/exhibitor (USA I think) of this breed who is a member of our GB Norwegian Elkhound Lovers group.  Her name is; Kat Thomasson.

Is the dog getting any exercise?

Hi Guys, I am Kat Thomasson. I have had this breed since 1999. It sounds to me like this poor baby is now starting to become protective.
With this breed, they need to be a real part of the family or flock which they are to protect. This does not mean to be in a run or kennel most of time. He needs to be a real part of the family 24 hours a day. This means in the home with his people, not outside. These guys bond with whatever is theirs, be it people, other animals, places, or whatever. This is a serious breed and they never really relax. They do not play, the way other dogs do. There is no other breed such as this. They live to protect, it is instinct in them. This breed will indeed, attack humans whom they do not consider theirs. With this breed, you, the human, have to earn their respect and love. You have to be an active part, of their lives. With this breed, if you want a dog which can stay outside most of the time, and then when you want to interact with them, and have a relationship, this is NOT the breed for you. This breed has to have 100% of your lives, IF you want it to be a part of your life. They have to be with you as a true companion, in the home, and sharing your life.
These guys are a serious breed. If they respect you, they will give their lives for you. Without that respect, which YOU have to earn, forget it. This breed takes a commitment which is for the lifetime of that dog. I can not stress how important this is. They have to know, that they are family! This breed also, tries, for the total of its lifetime, to be in control. You walk a fine line with them, on controlling their behavior, not allowing them to take command, which they will if they can, and to keep them where they listen to you. It is NOT an easy breed.
On this boy, he needs to be a part of your family, not in the run or kennel most of the time. Without this, he will never respect you nor allow you to tell him what to do or not to do. He needs a family/flock.

On spay or neutering, that does NOT help with behavior issues, contrary to what one is told. It does NOT change behaviors such as this. This is his true temperament which is showing up, and is correct for this breed.

Kat says there is a  UK based lady with experience Vee Deplidge who can be found on facebook

I feel sorry for any dog that is just left in a run outside. Dogs are part of the family.

I can a 1000% assure you he is not 'just left in a kennel', the kennel was in fact almost his choice as he finds our home to hot to sleep in. He is 18 months old and the change in behaviour is very recent, I am firm believer of dogs never living outside but in bears case he ate his way through a door  in order to be outside at nighttime. He spends all of his time with my little brother, who has him in his room constantly, well up to this incident yesterday. He is going back to the vets for more thorough examination and we will be contacting some breed specialists as well as positive behaviourists. I do not want him castrated due to the fact that I don't believe I'm the domanance myth and also believe it will make him worse. From what I've heard he is back to his normal self this morning.

Hi Kat,very good informative post that should go some way to help the OP understand the breed and behaviour.

He is going back to the vets for more thorough examination

Fair enough, if he is having his ears, mouth and eyes given a better check over, you never know,

But I do agree with everyone else, sounds to me like a territorial stance here, from a volatile guarding breed, for your vet to deduce dominance, I really wouldn't be taking any advice on behaviour from him/her, god forbid if he tries to put you in touch with some Caesar Milan type trainer, you'll be lucky not to be attacked or worse.

Kathleen has given an excellent post on the behaviour traits of this breed, everything that she says should make perfect sense to you, and I truly believe that you should adhere to every word she has said, a guarding breed will guard and his kennel is his home, he is also at that stage where his hormones are raging making his animal instincts on high alert, his territorial instincts will be even more heightened as he works out his role.

Luckygirl, nothing wrong in him being kenneled he does have a heavy coat and yes, he will really feel the heat in a central heated home, however........... dogs kept in kennels need that heightened training, not just normal puppy training and socialisation, you need to daily train preferably with a whistle to keep that bond close and for him to regard his trainer as his personal 'thing' to guard, coming in the home as and when, is just not good enough it will not enforce that bond.

If he is not to be a full time house dog, he must be treated like a working dog, kept busy and kept on top of his obedience, without it he will turn purely to guarding and the day may come when someone coming to his home 'the kennel' will get far worse than teeth baring.

He's no longer a cute puppy teddy bear, he is approaching adulthood and needs more than cuddles and love now, he needs a purpose, if you do not give him one, he will find his own and Luckygirl he is too big and strong to do what his instincts alone dictate, you need to do that for him, train him and work him, or integrate him into the home, could you add on a conservatory/room to your home for him to lie in to get cooler, so that he is still part of the house? 

Wishing you the best of luck with him, :-)  But, please run 100 miles from anyone who suggests dominance.

Luckygirl I did confirm to kat that he is only outside some time not permanently kennelled.

The thing is this breed has an almost insane protective instinct.  That means they will guard anything they see as theirs, think of it in the same way as misdirection of a trait he's bred for like when collies herd people, or chase cars.

Those who I have met in Eastern Europe tell me that they view anyone/animal outside the family as a threat, a very useful trait for a flock guard on the lonely steppes, ditto their suspicion of strangers who may be out to rob the herder, not a breed naturally suited to modern urban living.

If you could arrange to speak to or even better meet with the UK based lady she may be able to help you with a way forward to minimise the natural traits.

Hi Kathleen, thank you for comeing onto this post & great post by the way.

I hope you absorb the information Kath has passed to you 'Luckgirl', I also agree with Brianless' post above and that you speak with the UK based lady she mentioned.
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Just following on- the OP might find this link useful http://www.southrussianovcharka.com/nosro.html

I'd also advise going to a breed specialist. Assuming there is no underlying medical reason for the change in behaviour, it sounds as though this independent  thinking, flock guardian breed member is finding his place and role within his social group and some of it is hormonally motivated behaviour. Oftentimes, the complete adult profile, like guarding behaviour, does not begin to emerge until the dog begins to approach maturity. So a youngster/puppy can appear friendly etc.. and then as they hit a certain age other hardwired behaviours can emerge. My understanding of this breed is that the guarding instinct is incredibly strong and anything outside their immediate family group is viewed as a potential threat against which they will take action if they think it is warranted. That all makes sense if you think what they were bred to do.

This type of dog needs a role and a job and intensive direction from his owner, as well as complete respect for his owner's directions, although given the nature of the breed it is likely that at some points they will decide that xy or z is a threat and take action. Without intensive work and the right knowledge I'm not sure this is a dog that can easily be owned in an urban setting.

The woman I was thinking of was Janet Finlay, she's owned flock guardians (maremmas) since 1991.  She's also visited dogs in their native environment and spoken with the shepherds there.

She's a TTouch practitioner and dog trainer, it would be worth getting in contact with her.

Sounds a great start- certainly needs someone who well understands this very specialised breed/ type of dog, such a shame Raymond Coppinger isn't over here.

I've arranged a phone meeting with lady who Hethspaw as given me and will ring the others on Monday. His previous owners may have given up on him but we certainly won't, we will do everything in our power in order to see that he lives a long and happy life. And freelance uk I agree with you that they are not a breed for an urban setting, fortunately, we live in a very rural area with plenty of space hence the reason my dad decided to take him on.

Try looking up Vee Deplidge, on facebook, .I believe she has two of the breed from what Kat said

I've arranged a phone meeting with lady who Hethspaw as given me

Not me Luckygirl, I said I agreed with Brainless post but I recomended no one.
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The internet link you've given me, I've contacted that breeder and have booked a phone appointment with her and thanks brainless, I'll get on Facebook ASAP and contact her as well :)

This breed lives for protecting. This pup is just now starting to protect. He will become much more protective as he gets older. That is the breed.
As far as an urban setting, I have had these guys in large cities here in the USA, the whole time I have owned them, since 1999. The secret is ... taking them as many places as you can, with you.  Shopping, sight seeing, to shopping malls, construction sites, down town, where ever that is, on walks, out to see livestock, out among other people, anything you can think of. These guys need to be With the family. So important this. As long as they have a job which You, the owner, has them do, they will be happy. But You, have to be the boss, not them. These guys get huge. I have a 15 month old pup now, who is 32 inches at the shoulders and 145 pounds. He will grow and mature until he is 4 1/2 years to 5 years old. He will be much larger than he now is. You bet I am sure he knows I am his boss and the one whom he gets food, water, treats, pets, and anything else from. I go in and out the doors before he does, he either sits or downs, before I give him his food, when training, he does what I request, before he gets a treat. All my guys (6 total) were and are, trained this way. All are and were, Mom's dogs.
Went to a show this past weekend, all there commented on how both the dogs I had there, were sure Mom's dogs. :) This breed respects authority and the guide lines of doing their job. The job may be with a flock, with it's people, home, or whatever. They have to have structure. I am praying for you and this little boy of yours. Kat

That breeder is Diane and she is very knowledgeable about all the Ovcharkas. Please listen to what she has to suggest for you. You will not go wrong with anything she tells you. :) Kat

The internet link you've given me, I've contacted that breeder and have booked a phone appointment with her and thanks brainless, I'll get on Facebook ASAP and contact her as well

Ah yes I understand now, my first post response, I checked out for experiened people here with the breed 'cause neither the breed nor the breeds history here in UK is known to me, both of importance - so I posted that link & then checked out youtube for a better understanding of the working lines of the breed, quite interesting footage, hope things work out for you.

  Bear protection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTurr9vEWC0

Wolf protection (old but good documentry style footage)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSIBrBs56wg
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This breed lives for protecting

Looking at the youtube footage - it seemed to me that unless they are well and truly socialised with strange dogs from as early an age as possible they are unlikely to be friendly towards other dogs, is view that correct?

These guys need to be With the family

Yes that was very noticable in the youtube footage, they are working/living in a mixed species pack as their 'social group'.

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If he is not to be a full time house dog, he must be treated like a working dog, kept busy and kept on top of his obedience, without it he will turn purely to guarding and the day may come when someone coming to his home 'the kennel' will get far worse than teeth baring

By the way - good post carrington, to many dogs over this past decade suffered & early PTS as the result of owners afflicted with 'chronic anthropomorhisms syndrom'.
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It sounds as though the owner has to a degree already understood the need to socialise and it is clear that this needs to be extensive and ongoing through life. I think with any breed that has high protective instincts but is also an independent thinking breed that socialisation can never really stop and the owner has to be in control of their dog at all times. Hats off to Kat.

The concerns I would have here are the possibility of poor breeding - I'm not clear if much is known about this dog's background, parentage etc...

It is wonderful to know that the OP is so committed to rearing this dog and I hope she keeps us updated on progress. Such an unusual breed it's almost in need if a blog.

I'm not sure how to post videos but I have some lovely footage of bear playing with one of his mates, a flat coated retriever named Teddy incidentally. Yes we don't know the background of him. The full story is that my dad owns a business but likes to put his HGV to good use, so whilst at work he heard someone saying that their sister was having her 14 weeks old Ovtcharka puppy put to sleep because the hassle of selling him was too much. Anyway, my dad acquired the number, finished his shift and set off for the puppy. When he got there the poor mite was kept in a shed and didn't look well at all. Bear has been residing with us ever since and will not be going anywhere. We've had quite a few dogs (ranging from a extremely aggressive bull terrier that took years to 'put right' to an extremely fearful and shy Dobermann) and each and everyone we never quit on. It's too easy these days to cast things off as 'broke', I may only be an undergraduate at universty but I've been taught when things are not 'right', fix them! It may take months and it may take years but little bear is not going to be quit on or unwanted ever again.

I think your description of how Bear was found and in what condition tells you a lot. I hope you get all the help you can and it does sound as though you have some sense of the possibly difficult road that lies ahead.

It would be great to see your video if there is a way to share it.

I'm not sure how to post videos

Just join youtube & when you login a facility which says 'upload' is easily found - on your pc just order/arrange your vids so you can find them easily & when you click the youtube 'upload' facility just click on the vid name or number on the vid on your pc & it uploads - vids are highly educational.
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I've put locked in a shed and it was actually in a dark room upstairs. We have infact installed a light inside his kennel so its never dark in the run for him when he decides he wants to go in it. That'll teach me to try and write a dissertation and think dogs at the same time!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201973432239873&set=a.2837983671191.150699.1307240610&type=3&theater

I don't know if that'll work but whilst I'm trying to sort youtube out there is a picture of him in the back of my KA.

We have infact installed a light inside his kennel so its never dark in the run for him when he decides he wants to go in it

Active dogs with a hunting tendancy have an excellent ability to navigate in darkness, if anything just as good as daylight & cause they pick up speed & activity levels as darkness falls & wild animals come out their navigational abilities seem heightened, 4 of the 5 senses are probably active & we cannot compare them to the human experience of existance.
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Lucky girl,

I couldn't get it, perhaps others will be able to view it.

http://youtu.be/xuOME8RXRgo

Hopefully that works :)

Yea I got the youtube vid no problem...
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Ah yes, can see it now. What a handsome and happy looking lad. Is the flat coat another intact male?

The best of luck and it is good to know that you will have the help of a breed expert.

Kathleen, do you keep your dogs intact or neuter?

Kathleen shows in the US so all have to be intact.

Barbara, thanks, I wondered what she would make of the vet's advice to the OP, given showing is not involved.

She did reply above:

> On spay or neutering, that does NOT help with behavior issues, contrary to what one is told. It does NOT change behaviors such as this. This is his true temperament which is showing up, and is correct for this breed.

Ah, yes, right at the top, must have missed it.

Although neutering may affect sexually agonistic behaviours and some would argue duration and intensity of reaction to various stimuli (in males that is) it never ceases to amaze me that vets view it as a cure for anything.

I think the party line with so many newer vets is stop as many animals from breeding full stop as you can, so over egg any perceived positives, to help persuade owners to neuter.

I know what you mean.  When Remy was 9/10 months I was having mega trouble with him sodding off to see other dogs, and the day I booked him in was the day he ran in front of a car having legged it over the sea wall to meet a chihuahua!

The vet nurse told me yes, neutering him would calm him down and stop him doing that and the vet agreed.  How on earth I believed that I will never know!

B - yes I'm sure that is true.

Nikita, those chis may be tiny but they can be very charismatic, even over a sea wall. Poor Remy.

I think the party line with so many newer vets is stop as many animals from breeding full stop as you can

Hmmm....thats an easy way to earn few quick bucks, as 'they' say, simple, straight forward op + stitch removal.......& the bread rolls in, how very entrepreneurial!
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How on earth I believed that I will never know!

Its been very well known for many, many decades that *eunuching is a hit & miss thing - standard, elementary, archaic veterinary knowledge.

*A commercial enterprise carried out on unsuspecting pet owners by some vets.
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