My girl had to get 3 oxytocin injections at the vets because her contractions kept stopping.pups are 2 days old and all but 2 are just not thriving so going to top them up with lactol.I have 2 questions firstly what can i use to feed them because the feeding bottles just arent working.Also can the injections my girl had have anything to do with this? Thanks

I use a syringe. Put it in the mouth and squeeze gently. you should see the pup try to swallow. be careful not to give too much at once. I have never had any luck with bottles. Make sure you let the pups attempt to suckle from mum first before feeding and also keep encouraging them between feeds. this will help encourage the milk production. Your aim is to just keep the pups going until mums milk gets going.

Sorry to hear this. I am not sure about the injections but know that feeding puppies can be a frustrating experience.
I found the bottles that are supposed to be shaped like the breast are the best. They are sort of easy to push in around the side.
I think the company that sell lactol or it may be Beaphar, do a small animal bottle but all of the teats were too small for mine.
Keep them warm especially but not too hot and boiled water ( cooled) to keep them hydrated may help. Is there breathing relatively normal?
I hope things improve.Good luck.

They are all still feeding from mum,still active but incredibly skinny,all but 2 have lost weight,Ive tken the smallest ones out to feed alone with mum for a while but am going to top them up too.

I've successfully used baby bottles for feeding pups, for newborns a Dr Brown's Preemie bottle - smaller teat than a standard bottle. I have a medium sized breed (Border Collies) and this bottle is excellent even when having to feed the day born. For smaller breeds they may prove too large.

Can't help re the oxytocin as never used this. Good luck with the pups and hope the soon start to thrive.

Ditto, have always used small 2oz bottles with newborn baby teats.   Also medium size breed.

This may help :-)
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/case_10.htm

In the next day or so the milk should be coming in.  If the pups aren't suckling it won't come in properly, so they really need to suckle. 

Are they content after feeds?   or do they cry?

How much weight have they lost?  An initial slight loss is normal and at this stage I would be weighing them before and after feeds just to check on how much they are getting, before topping them up.

Are you giving your girl plenty to drink?   I soaked her food at this stage with chicken broth, bone broth (all without salt)  and Lactol as well as providing a choice of water and Lactol.

She had plenty of milk just after the pups arrived but now ive noticed the milk seems to be decreasing only the back 2 teatsaand one other look like they have milk the others have shrunk right back dowm,im so worried.All pups apart from 2 have lost weight some have lost more than an ounce and they were only approx 6-7oz to begin with.yes she is drinking plenty.pups are all suckling i just dont think they are getting much.How much puppy milk should i give each pup per feed and is there anything i can do to encourage the milk to come back?

Are you putting the ones that have lost weight on the teats every hour?  You want them feeding almost constantly to stimulate the supply.  Put the weaker pups onto the teats the stronger pups have started on, so they don't have to work so hard.  Ever6y time your near the whelping box and pups are asleep put those onto the teats.

>look like they have milk

they don't have to bag up and seem full of milk to have plenty.

The milk is let down, so doesn't need to be in the breast.  having breast fed myself there'd have to be a huge difference in breast size between feeds, and there isn't though they are softer after.

One of my girls never bagged up at all, was virtually smooth underneath (well no more than a bitch during a season/mild phantom), yet fed 7 pups who grew at a rate of knots.

You can only tell how much milk a bitch has by how well the pups are doing.

With my medium size breed and large pups or a big litter I expect a slight drop in weight the first day (I weigh newborns wet so that may account for some of it) expect them to regain the next day and start gaining around an ounce a day after that.  I'm happy with a weight gain of 7 - 10 ounces the first week. 

10 - 14 the second and then a pound or so the third, but they can vary hugely and still end up the same by around 12 weeks.

If pups look plumped out, are contentedly twitching with the odd squeaks, gaining at a gradually increasing rate, then they are doing fine.

These pups are not gaining aythung apart from 2 they are rapidly losing weight,they are still trying to suckle well they are suckling but im certain they arent getting much,some are just skin and bones x

You won't necessarily 'see' any milk in the teats once the pups are suckling.   It's supply and demand.   So any excess in the teats is unwanted ;-)

The best thing to encourage milk is hungry pups feeding from mum.   Little and often at this stage.    They should be feeding from her every two hours at least.  Do you watch  them feeding  to make sure they are latched on properly?

They shoulld be taking the whole of the nipple and surrounding area into their mouths.  If they aren't, they won't be getting the milk out.     If this is the case, you mayeedto help them latch  on at first until they get the idea.

Before supplementing, try weighing the pups before and after a feed.    I weigh pups daily at the same time of day and record the weights.  It's easy to see and differences then.  

Remember though, they won't be needing much at this stage,  so there won't be much difference.

A good guide to pups doing well is that they are all contented after a feed.    Snuggled together and warm.    Make sure the temperature is kept constant and no draughts.

Why do you think they need supplementing - apart from not seeing much milk in the teats?

Do you have The Book of the Bitch ?    This would help explain many things that can worry breeders.   

>some are just skin and bones

Then they do need support until they stabilise, but the pups need to suckle to stimulate the bitch.

Is the bitch staying with the pups all the time except for wee breaks (usual for first three days until milk really comes in).

Has the bitch been unwell (I had this with Inka's last litter last year when she became ill on the changed recipe Fish4dogs and would not eat at all) 

I lost one pup (second day) and had to top up two (one for only a few days the other for a week).

Once she was eating the pups raced away.

Have the pups ben checked for cleft palates or any other abnormality?  For the bitch to have milk and then for it to decrease would point to the pups not feeding properly so lack of demand reducing supply.

I'm assuming she is getting plenty of liquids and fed adlib in the whelping box?

Its the huge weight loss,my friend cme down tonight and said she is surprised 2 of the pups are still alive they are like skeletons most have lost at least an ounce since birth no weight gain at all x

I would not worry over an ounce in weight loss though would be expecting them to gain it back at two days.  My pups though are usually 12 - 14 ounces.

How are the pups behaving, how attentive content is the bitch.  What about cleft palates, are they warm enough, what's the temperature in the whelping box?

If you do start supplementing with Lactol.

Please remember to clean and sterilise everything the same as you would for a newborn baby.   This can so easily be forgotten.

I use first born baby bottles and slow flow new born teats,  with strong pups you can slow the flow further by plugging test with a bit of sponge but never needed to do that.    Use steam / microwave the nod for sterilization as find Milton puts pups off.

>My girl had to get 3 oxytocin injections at the vets because her contractions kept stopping

I'm a bit surprised at this.  The veterinary hospital that I use refuse to give more than 2 oxytocin injections, a minimum of 40 minutes apart.  I agree with the others that pups need to be constantly attached to the teat at this age.  Mine have always still been attached when asleep.  You can tell when they wake up and the little mouths start sucking again.  Like Barbara says, they have the whole surrounding area in their mouths.

Do you have your mentor nearby?  I think it's important that you get an experienced opinion.  When you say that your friend gave an opinion, was this an experienced opinion?

No it wasnt an experieced opinion it was just  very obvious one they look like skeletons! I do have a mentor but she is at the other side of the world just now due to  a family bereavement.

Are they crying?

just back from vet,mum is on antibiotics for an infection and she only has milk in her 4  back teats.The vet doesnt hold out much hope for the smallest pup but she had gained a small amount of weight this morning.The vet has told me to keep pups away from mum for 24 hours because the antibiotics will upset pups tummies and make them ill.She got an aantibiotic injection plus noraclav tablets/Im worried the small amount of milk she does have will dry up.

> vet has told me to keep pups away from mum for 24 hours because the antibiotics will upset pups tummies and make them ill

Please check this    URGENTLY    - it doesn't sound right to me.  I'm sure there are AB's which are ok for a lactating bitch

I'm hoping one of our experienced breeders will catch this post and give you some advice...

> I'm sure there are AB's which are ok for a lactating bitch

Yes there definitley are because I have given them to lactatig bitches in the past. Unfortunately I can't remember which ones  they were. I would go call the vet and find out whjy you have been given an antibiotic that will not suit the puppies. They really need to be feeding constantly or there is a real risk that the milk will not get going.

If the pups are failing to thrive and mum has little milk, plus on AB I would feed pups via tube or bottle rather than risk loose stools in pups. I would put t shirt on mum and keep her with pups to keep her settled but prevent pups feeding. Feed every two hours. I personally would feed a rich milk solution such as evaporated milk diluted with boiled water as described in book of bitch - maximum calories / ml

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zi_bbk9kUNAC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=evaporated+milk+for+puppies+book+of.+bitch&source=bl&ots=ajWwqO2L8y&sig=LZjm0Qop_9u9r8D4VXYPyTYpooU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gcL7Ura1K-Wg7AaumIHwBQ&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=evaporated%20milk%20for%20puppies%20book%20of.%20bitch&f=false

No way should pups be kept off Mum, Noraclav is perfectly OK during lactation (have had it for my bitch with mastitis) and pups kept on bitch.

unfortunately very few vets have any real experience regarding breeding and nursing bitches.

http://www.norbrook.com/products/noroclav-palatable-tablets-500mg-for-dogs/

"Noroclav Palatable Tablets are safe for use during pregnancy and lactation. Studies in laboratory animals have not produced any evidence of teratogenic effects."

In general no issues but noraclav can cause diarrhoea as side effect, in non compromised cases no problem but with pups failing to thrive would not risk it personally.

My girl is desperate to get to pups,ive fed them but they are still crying

They will need feeding possibly every hour at this stage, especially if they are underweight.   Better to give little and often, than too much at once.  And don't forget that mum will need to toilet them as they can't 'go' on their own for some time yet.

Do you have the pups with a heat pad or wrapped hot water bottle?    If they are cold they will be huddled together  but restless.
It's very important they are kept warm at this age as they chill very easily.   A chilled pup can't digest anything, so it's important they stay warm.   Mum would normally keep them warm by being with them ;-)

I would personally ring the vet and ask for the exact name of the antibiotic injection he has given and to discuss whether it would be better to allow her to be with the pups than be this stressed.    Stress is more likely to cause problems with milk supply than just not being with the pups.   

I know how frantic she will be, at this stage I can barely get the bitch to go out for a much needed wee.

When my bitch had mastitis with a burst mammary, she had an antibiotic injection as well as tablets,   the vet said it was important to keep the pups feeding from the other teats and for me to express the ones not used.     The teat was one that was never used as it was flat.     The pups were older though.

You could perhaps ask if it would be ok to put one of the strongest pups on to help keep her supply going.

If not, I'd definitely ask why the vet gave an antibiotic that was dangerous to the pups.   

littleberry

Another one here that has never had a problem with Noroclav.  It doesn't sound as if you have loads of knowledge, but I honestly feel that you have to bite the bullet and question your vets decision.  I realise that it is normal to take a vets word as gospel, but they really don't have a lot of experience when it comes to breeding.  I don't care if I question a vet, it's my money paying for their time, so I ask for reasons if I am not sure about their decision.

Pluck up the courage to phone the vet and ask WHY?  It is natural that your bitch should want to be with her pups.  As others have said, for the first 3 days I have to drag my girls out to have a wee, as they will just shut down the waterworks, rather than leave the whelping box.  Are your pups on a heat pad?  You stand more chance of losing them if they're not.  All the milk in the world is no good if they are not warm. 

I feel that it's important for your to persevere with getting those little mouths latched on to mum.  Even if you need to top up.  And try to get this right, by topping up after they have been on mum.  I agree that they need to be fed every hour all round the clock at this stage.  We're all rooting for you.  :-)

Jean

Agree with all the rest.
Way I see it with all them puppies hand feeding them and them being sickly you have a high chance of losing some so it is better to let them feed off mum and take the chance of diahrea as it can also happen with bottle feeding anyway. So best to let mum do what she is meant to keeping them warm,  toileting them etc.

Any news for us littleberry?

Can I give an alternative view to most of those so far given?  IT seems establisehd that Mum cannot feed at the moment and some pups have already had substantial wieghtloss.  People with larger breed often consider a 1 oz weight loss insignificant, but in a 6os birth weight it is a loss and more cannot be allowed.

In the past 2 years I have reared 3 litters totally or partially with bottles, every pups has survived and thrived.  I use the small animal feed bottles available at the vets but open the teat a little to improve milk flow (sharp nail scissors)  If the pups have already lost so much and look "skin and bone" tey are porbably dehydreated now, so rehydration fluid is essential - Royal Canin do one, or you can use dioralyte from the Chemist.  I woudl do an hourly system, first rehydration feed, then milk.  Weigh at each feed.  Good luck.

Hi Littleberry ... quite a few of us waiting with baited breath for news? Though realise you could be extremely busy at the moment.

One of my bitches had accute post-partum metritis following the birth of her pups, very serious. She ended up having emergency and life saving surgery a week after they were born. She was on antibiotics before that and for 4-5 weeks after. It was perfectly fine for Mum and for pups. I honestly cannot remember which antibiotic it was though. Not all ABs are suitable but, as others have said, some are perfectly safe. In my recent litter I was worried about Mum as she seemed to be going same way as my previous girl so I asked the vet to put her on ABs just as a precaution. That was only 4 months ago and I still cannot remember the name, may have been noraclav.

As someone has mentioned there may be a risk of upset tums, not a problem in my two litters, but then you have to weigh that up against whether you're managing to get milk into them by bottle feeding. Bottle feeding is hard, specially if pups have had a bit of time on Mum's own teat. It's surprising how much a tiny pup can fight a silicone teat and strong human!!

If there's still life in a pup then there's still hope :)

I do hope things are improving?