Hi there, my girl is due to whelp this week and I am here for some advice from the people that know best so please be respectful and don't bombard me with abuse as I have had on other forums.  I live out in the country and have a garden that backs on to fields separated by a low fence and in December, after I had come back from a walk with my entire female, I went inside to take off muddy boots/put kettle on leaving her outside while I went to get a towel to dry her off. When I got back outside there was another dog, mating with my dog and by the time I got to the bottom of the garden they were tied. I located the owner of the dog, and we discussed what would we do if she did indeed become pregnant. Well of course she did, I contacted my vet and discussed my options, including the Alizin injection but, as I had wanted to breed from her in the future, we decided against it as my vet informed me that this can have a detrimental effect on future reproductive performance and maternal behaviour. So, I accepted responsibility for what I had done, albeit leaving my dog alone in my own garden for 5 minutes, and have everything prepared and in order for whelping this week. I have stayed in contact with the owners of the dog who at first were very understanding and kind, and offered to pay for veterinary treatment should she need it. I asked them if they would be interested in a puppy to which they said NO.  Then 2 weeks ago I got a phone call where they told me I should follow etiquette and they wanted pick of the litter. I was quite taken aback by their tone, and I would like some advice as to what you guys think the best course of action is. My dog is of a similar but not the same breed to the sire They informed me that he has papers but has never sired a litter before.

There is no etiquette!!! Stud terms are agreed before the mating takes place. As this did not happen and their dog was out on the loose while yours was on your own property they don't have the right now to demand pick of the litter! Anyway first choice always goes to the bitch owner who breeds the litter. You can take your choice first and then they can have the next choice. If you are not planning to keep a pup from this litter it might be best just to let them have a pup just to keep the peace as you are neighbours, But only if you are certain that they are a suitable home. And letting their dog run free might suggest that they are not.

Incidently your vet is mistaken about the Alizin injection. It is  very safe especially done straight after a season. My daughter used it herself last season on her bitch who was mismated on her last season and this season has gone on to produce 5 lovely planned puppies  and she is being an excellent mother. Obviously this information too late for you this time, :(

Another thought is Health tests. Presumably if you are planning on breeding your bitch in the futurue you will be having all the necessary health tests. Although you have left it a bit late it would be a good idea to do these ASAP so you can show the puppy buyers that they have been done. Eyes could be done before she whelps but you would need to wait until the litter is weaned to do hips.

Tell the stud owners that you will need their dog to have all the health tests too. They can get these done now. If they are so keen on etiquette then I am sure they won't mind as it is what responsible breeders do these days!!

>Then 2 weeks ago I got a phone call where they told me I should follow etiquette and they wanted pick of the litter.

The only etiquette is what was agreed at the time of mating. In this case the owners of the dog said that they did not want a puppy, therefore if they've changed their minds they should pay for one. You might want to give them a puppy if you're friends with them, but they have no automatic right to one.

Thanks for your responses guys. I did all the necessary testing back when I was considering breeding from her (Hips, PRA and FN) and she is all clear.  He was tested when he was younger and was all clear (Ive seen the papers) but never bred from because they lost interest in doing it.  I do want to keep the peace so will be giving them second choice after I have had mine- I was sat up with my girl last night who is going through first stages of labour (!!!!) and was mulling things over- wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing/not being patronised or treated unfairly but the main thing is that she and her pups are okay. Incidently I have found good homes for all the puppies and luckily i know all the prospective owners personally, but like you say am a little hesitant with the sires family given their attitude. However they do have a very dog suitable house with a manhoosive garden and I see them out and about with their dog all the time who is always under controlon walks - mistakes do happen I've gotta give them that.

Hmmm thanks for the word about Alizin, I guess I just trusted the word of the professional and was scared to do anything that could hurt her which he said it could, but it's good to know that that isn't the case!

Not long to go now, this waiting is awful! I have been preparing for this from the get-go but it doesn't seem real now!

THEIR dog got into YOUR property so, despite this not being what you panned, I see NO claim from either party is applicable.
It may suit you to have 'papers' for this litter but if you go down that route you forge a partnership of kind with the male dogs owner....perhaps allowing them some restitution for the semen.

If you cut ties with the owner of the trespasser then you need have no further contact or dealings with them...citing an unwanted and disruptive intrusion on your property.

You can't have your cake and eat it in this situation as far as I can see.

>Incidently your vet is mistaken about the Alizin injection.

I agree with the previous poster, it is the old Delvesteron injection that often caused issues , Alizin is basically a prostaglandin (the chemical  released that get birth underway, negating the hormones maintaining pregnancy).

As for any rights, you have been landed with an unwanted litter and the expense and risk to your bitch, they can go fly.

If it had been you being irresponsible letting your bitch loose when in season perhaps they could feel aggrieved.

I'm assuming these will be crossbred pups anyway (as it's unlikely that they have the same breed), so your going to have to try hard to find responsible homes at a nominal fee.

Edit: Having read further.

Gosh what luck it is the same breed, I'd get them registered and offer them second choice pup to keep the peace, and always supervise your bitch in the garden when in season from now on, having succeeded once the male is even more likely to try to get to her in future and even increasing fence height/security may not be enough of a deterrent.

Be a shame not to have the pups registered as you may have something good there worth going forward with after all.

> Gosh what luck it is the same breed

Not the same breed -:)

Oops skim reading,

Well my first reply stands they can go fly this is a crossbred litter, so expenses are going to be as much as pups worth. 

I'd not be keeping a  puppy myself as I'd want a purebred pup to go on with into the next generation (the purpose of breeding, and risking my bitch)

The reason I am holding one back is because they are both excellent working dogs, and my partner would like a dog for work (not breeding)- not hunting but woodland management and countryside landscaping, had the pups been purebred we would have held one back for field trials.  To be honest I am thankful that at least the dog was a similar breed, even better that he has passed all health checks etc because it could have been a lot worse and I have definitely learnt a lesson from this- don't take eyes off even for 2 minutes when in heat!

Your bitch was on YOUR land! the dog came to her so really you could be funny and demand they pay for the puppy they want!! I can never understand some people tbh...shes lucky he wasn't any bigger...I hope she gets through it ok...matchsticks at the ready as we say x

How lucky for you that the dog & bitch have both had all the health tests done & that the cross of these two breeds is popular in some circles. As for the owner of the father they hve no right to anything as their dog should not have been out unaccompanied

Ditto the Alizin injection, I know of a couple of bitches who have had silent seasons & been caught by the owner's own dogs, that have had this & gone on later to have planned litter(s)

Are you going to sell the puppies with a neuter contact ?

Well of course she did, I contacted my vet and discussed my options, including the Alizin injection but, as I had wanted to breed from her in the future, we decided against it as my vet informed me that this can have a detrimental effect on future reproductive performance and maternal behaviour.

Well I would sue your VET. At the very least never go back to such an incompetent vet. The above is a load of rubbish. There is nothing in the manufacturer's datasheet about any such side effects as mentioned. I had an accidental mating, used Alizin, and mated the bitch at her next season. She had 9 pups, was an excellent mother, all pups perfect, and 3 of them have done very well at shows indeed. One is even a record holder. One is about to have her own first litter any day now. Had I let the unwanted pregnancy go ahead I would not have been able to register the pups and I'd no doubt not have been able to sell them either because of that (due to the breed in question), so my options would have been to keep the entire litter (impossible and very unfair on the pups) or have them put down once born bar one for the bitch's sake, which I would then have had to keep. And then the next great mating would quite possibly never have taken place as it would be a full year later and wrong time for various reasons.

I can't believe you were given such bad advice. :(

But no, the dog owner has no rights here whatsoever.

> or have them put down once born bar one for the bitch's sake, which I would then have had to keep

Actually it is quite likely that a vet would refuse to put the pups down these days if there was nothing obviously wrong with them. I did a little research not so long ago and vets won't do a late spay or put new born pups down. This is one of the problems faced by the person i posted about a little while ago where one parent is epileptic. She is now faced with keeping the pups as she is not having much luck finding people who want to take on a pup that may have epilepsy :(

Actually it is quite likely that a vet would refuse to put the pups down these days if there was nothing obviously wrong with them.

Not something I'd ever want to do and I hope would never happen, but I am lucky in that my vets are very pro responsible breeders and a bit old fashioned, with a few well-known exhibitors as clients (think group winners at Crufts type of exhibitors/breeders) so I personally would not have a problem. But you are right -lots of people would, in this day and age when some vets even refuse to remove rear dewclaws.

Yes very lucky that they are of similar build and both have a clean bill of health *pheeeew!*. I understand the reasons to only breed from pure lines, and I am not against it at all but I am against breeders who see it as their duty to play god and have perfectly healthy puppies put down just because they do not fit the breed standard or because they are missing certain attributes of the breed (I am not saying anyone here does that I am merely having a rant because I know that this DOES happen, although youd be hard pushed to find a vet to do it nowadays). Of course if they have health problems that are going to affect their quality of life or  if a pregnancy is going to jeopardise the bitches health then I can see the reasons behind wanting a termination or having unhealthy puppies PTS, but I feel that when genuine mistakes happen and the only thing at stake is the aesthetics of the impending puppies then it is totally immoral to have them put to sleep. We should own up to our responsibilities and deal with them, such as I have but only before making sure it was 100% okay for my bitch to go ahead with the pregnancy and that the puppies will be healthy. I have been seeing a different vet, who did inform me of their colleagues mis-givings  and had I known better than yes I would have gone ahead with the injection but whats done is done and I am going to try and make the best out of the situation which frankly could have been worse and I'm very glad that things have turned out the way they have. Sorry but I believe a life is a life, planned or not planned I am certainly not going to even consider having healthy puppies done away with because they are cross breeds. Its not like a husky got to her, had it been anything like that I would have done the injection anyway regardless of the *risks* I was told about because obviously the health of bitch is paramount and I would have put my dreams of breeding her to bed (even though it turns out I wouldn't have had to).

   She is in the first stages of labour at the moment, everything looking normal and progressing nicely, I would expect her to start hard labour this evening- I'll keep you posted if you'd like!

I would just wait and see what the whelping brings before you start planning anything, your girl may need a c-section, meaning that the sale of any pups may need to intially pay for that, in which case the 'stud' dog owners can whistle for anything, she may only have one or two pups or may not produce any or few live pups, so don't promise anything to the 'intruder' stud dog owners, there was no planned mating or contract here.

As has already been said, they are entitled to NOTHING they are lucky you are not suing them for allowing their lose dog to impregnate yours, especially when you had her all lined up to breed in the future. You really should wait and see how your girl is, she may need medical treatment afterwards you have no way of knowing what will come of this, also agree about the injection total tosh from your vet.

They should be the ones worried that vet bills may be coming their way and make sure you charge them if so. If needed you will need your vet to put into writing why alizin was not prescribed hence the continuation of pregnancy (even though we know it is not true it will stand, incase you need to claim any bills from them )

This does not stand in any way like a normal contract the rules are completely different.

Due to no prior contract you may choose if all is well to offer them a stud fee, a pup (of your choice) or nothing entirely up to you, they can force nothing on you at all so do not be bullied by them, they are just trying their luck, they have no LEGAL rights to ANYTHING!

I hope that all goes well with your girl, the site is here along with your vet if you are worried about anything.

Wishing you and your girl all the best. :-)

I'd suspect that these people have been talking to others about this, and have been put up to coming back at you about this.

Two wrongs don't make a right however.  Fact is, and you know this, you shouldn't have let her out of your sight when in season for one minute.   And for the record too, I never took my in season bitches out off our properties - it's way too easy to lay a trail for any loose dog to follow - as clearly happened here!    And their dog shouldn't have been loose either.    I would have taken her straight to my vet for a shot to stop any pregnancy that probably had started - not that this always works.   As for the future, if she has a disaster whelping this litter, that's it for her in any case regardless of possible side-effects from the shot!   Hopefully this won't happen but ...........   and if she needs a C.Section any future litters may not be possible.   If one of mine needed a C.Section, that was it.  

With planned litters, to an outside stud, there is usually a Stud Agreement drawn up, setting down the basics (repeat mating if no puppies etc.etc.) and adjusted to fit whether the owner of the stud is going to take money for the mating, or a puppy in lieu.   And as to which puppy - that would need to be set down in writing too, to avoid misunderstandings later on.  The Agreement would be in duplicate and signed by both parties.  Pick puppy in lieu of a stud fee isn't a given.   Personally I always went for a stud fee payment - it gets messy if the bitch has a small litter, or even just one puppy!

Again I'd suggest these people have had time to think about what's happened, and talked to others who have put them up to all this.   There is NO 'etiquette' involved here and certainly no requirement on your part to give them pick puppy!    These puppies will be your puppies.    It matters not that he has papers in this case - these will be mix-bred puppies which cannot be registered with the Kennel Club's full registry.

Just to add that if you feel they will give one of these puppies a good home, perhaps you should let them have one - not necessarily pick, but does that really matter, given they can't be registered, or shown - but they/it could work.

Thanks so much for your help, I really felt a bit stuck on this one. But you are right, hopefully nothing will go wrong, I am praying she won't need a C-section but if anything like that does come to fruition I can assure you that they will be footing the bill. As they are neighbours I do not want to fall out with them but will do my best to explain that I don't appreciate being told what the "etiquette" is in these circumstances when I am well aware what the etiquette would have been had it been a planned breeding, as you say though 2 wrongs don't make a right and I wasn't totally in the right in this case so I will offer some sort of recompense for there dogs sperm be it a pup or a stud fee, I will have to see how this whelping goes.  I have never dealt with a bitch that's needed a C-section before, or in fact a difficult whelping which perhaps doesn't stand me in good stead if anything goes wrong with this one. I have read countless articles and watched numerous videos to prepare me and had a long chat with my vet about how to deal with a difficult whelping but still I cant help but feel nervous now. If by tonight (at which point she will have been in this first stage for 24 hours) she hasn't whelped what would you advise? I have heard horror stories of vets telling people to be patient and wait only for them to end up losing the whole litter and the bitch because a C-section wasn't done sooner. Obviously its a serious operation and not one I would want to rush into or push for unnecessarily but if by tonight there are no contractions what is the best course of action? I don't have access to oxytocin or anything like that myself as I am not experienced enough to do so.

what was the date of the mating? how many days is she? My last bitch was in the first stages for over 24 hours. I kept watching and waiting getting more and more stressed as nothing happened. My nerve finally went  at 4 in the morning and i rang the vet and took her into the surgery. No sooner had we got to the consulting room than my girl gave a push and there was the first puppy. Of course I felt awful then for dragging her out to see the vet. I took her back home and the rest of the pups arrived uneventfully.

If she is doing some digging, panting and looking uncomfortable I would give her 24-36 hours before panicking provided she is around 63 days but if she is much over 63 I would see the vet sooner rather than later.

Today is exactly day 62 from breeding. She started nesting in her whelping box on Sunday night, When I took her temperature at 4 pm yesterday it had dropped from the morning reading to 36.6 and it is still at that now. She was restless last night, digging in her box and couldn't get comfy, I stayed up most of the night snoozing nearby as she kept needing the toilet and I wanted to supervise, she has been breathing quite quickly since yesterday morning and started panting intermittently last night. She is now asleep in her whelping box continuing to breathe fast, I thought the pups had moved down but there is still a very slight amount of wriggling going on quite high up. Over the last hour she has started shivering in her sleep- I know these signs are of firsts tage labour, but it appears to me she has been in this stage for over 12 hours and Im just concerned the pups still seem quite high up. I spoke to my vet this morning, it was reassuring but my vet isn't a breeder and I know that a lot of people here have great experience of this hence why Im asking :) Im not overly concerned at the moment, but will be if she hasn't progressed any further by the morning- is this warranted do you think?

Typical Newyork .... told you - sometimes a car trip WILL get things moving!!   My old friend, and the breeder of our foundation bitch told me that years back.

I'd go strictly by the number of days too - if she's over the 62 by more than a couple of days, I'd get her checked.   And I don't (usually) take no for an answer.  If YOU feel she's had enough days in her pregnancy and the puppies need to come out, ask them to do a 'Section.   But ..... if you trust your vet, take his advice.    He should examine her, and if he feels she's already dilated, give her a belt of oxytocin which should get her started.   He may x-ray to see what's going on and the size of the puppies.

Is this the mis-mating in your other q. because if the male was bigger, she could have big puppies = problems.

Well if she hasn't done anything more by this evening then I will be calling back to the vet, the male was slightly bigger in build but not by a lot to be honest although when I mentioned this to the vet he did not seem concerned because the difference in size is slight. Still Im having my reservations, I don't think she should go in the way she has been for more than 12 hours more. Ive always seen bitches pant, my girl is hardly panting- she does when she gets up sometimes but its mainly quick breathing =- I measured her resp/min and relayed that to my vet who told me it was in the normal range for pre whelping. Hmm, just gunna have to sit it out for a little bit I suppose.

> Im not overly concerned at the moment, but will be if she hasn't progressed any further by the morning- is this warranted do you think?

Yes if nothing has happened by the morning I would definitely be going back to the vet. I beleive it is possible to progesterone test which will elt you know if labour should have started. That has been mentioned on here several times recently. And going on other recent experiences I would be discussing doing a c section sooner rather than later.

You mention your concern re size diferences between the mother and father. I don't beleive this is of great concern. Scientists have done experiments in the past with various species of animals and found that the size of the newborn babies is determined by the mother. I remember seeing a foal from a shetland pony and carthorse father (AI mating). The foal was shetland sized at birth so the mother could deliver it but it very quickly grew and was soon larger than the mother.

"You mention your concern re size diferences between the mother and father. I don't beleive this is of great concern. Scientists have done experiments in the past with various species of animals and found that the size of the newborn babies is determined by the mother"

If only this was always the case - which it's not!!

What we need to remember in this case they are breeds of not hugely dissimilar size, but dogs of all domestic species, have the largest size differences between breeds than any other.

So a chi bitch who has enough trouble birthing pups of the same breed could easily die if mated to even a terrier size dog.