My friend found out ten days ago her bitch is due tomorrow! She had been in doggy daycare when the daycare owner rang to say she thought the bitch might be coming into season as the dogs where interested in her,she was collected and remained at home for three weeks,she realised bitches teats were swelling and I suggested an ultrasound to be on the safe side,suffice to say puppies due,she was devastated to say the least, now there is apparently one entire male at daycare ,I am wondering if the daycare owner saw the mating and hoped for the best? Anyway entire dog owner is now kicking off a humongous stink wanting puppy rights DNA etc and generally being a right b...h demanding meetings etc, I say it's down to daycare to supervise the dogs in their care,safety and well being,the woman is threatening to sue, it's down to daycare and there insurance to sort this in my opinion not poor bitch owner who,s pups are due tomorrow,bitch wasn't showing a season ie no blood so I appreciate not strictly black and white but due to things said I would think daycare owner knows more than she said, my friend just doesn't need the harassment just now, .....what are your thoughts?

That is precisely why I only take neutered dogs at my day care/home boarding. I really don't want to take the risk as I know owners lie about their dogs. I had a yorkie a couple of years ago who was definitely in season & my dachshund thought his luck was in! Luckily he's been castrated.

To be blunt the dogs owner is talking s--- and has no rights whatever as its not guaranted her dog was responsible even if it did mate with her as for the daycare center find a new one

Just briefly reading this as I'm off out, surely the responsibilty is with the owner of the bitch.  It probably says somewhere in the contract that no bitches in season are allowed.  It would be reasonable for the daycare owner to say the boys are interested but most bitch owners should have some idea when their bitches are due in season and be on the lookout for it.
I just hope she has some help with the whelping and mum is fine with fit and well puppies.
Just my initial thoughts...

What an awful situation. I have to say that if I was the owner of the male dog I too would want a meeting with the bitch owner to discuss the puppies, I would also want DNA testing to take place to confirm it was indeed my male that sired the litter.
Ultimately the buck should stop with the daycare owner, it is her job to supervise the dogs at all times. I am assuming the butch owner is being honest about not knowing her girl was in season.

I don't understand why you think the males owner is being out of order, her dig may have fathered a litter, I would certainly want to discuss this with the bitch owner, I would want to know she was going to be responsible when placing the pups in homes etc....

Two wrongs here I'd suggest - which means surely the bitch owner would have known her bitch was in season, and potentially in standing heat at that PLUS the owner of the daycare place should surely have been around, and aware the male was showing interest, never mind actually being able to mate with her.  I know Jackies are lightening fast, but ..... you'd not get a Basset male to mate without being 'involved', or rarely much as I did have one who helped himself and got upset if I muscled in!

As for the owner of the male demanding 'puppy rights' - what in the world does THAT mean, without a stud agreement etc.    I suppose she might ask the bitch owner for a stud fee (lol) but that's about it.   Any puppies belong to the owner of the bitch.   Without a prior agreement (take back puppy in lieu of a stud fee/payment for the bitch in the first place).   If her dog had picked up a STD = vet costs, and it can be proven via DNA that he is the sire of the puppies, maybe she could look to the bitch owner / daycare owner to pick up the tab but to come at the bitch owner for any of this, really beggars belief.

And yes, most people running that kind of daycare place, would only take in neutered dogs (with proof!!).

Hopefully the male wasn't significantly bigger than the bitch - otherwise the owner should be aware she may be looking at a C.Section.

As an owner of entire dogs I would be absolutely furious with the day care centre.  Do these stupid people not realise the damage that can be done during an unsupervised mating

I would also want to meet the bitch owner.  I would want to reassure myself that this wasn't a planned pretend 'accidental' mating.  If my dog has known health issues the very least I could do is warn her of the potential risks and a DNA test might not be such a bad idea.  I'd also want to discuss exactly what might have happened at the day care centre BUT I'd also be wondering how/why the bitch owner managed to miss the start of the season...

To be frank I'd be hopping mad on all counts as I would have expected the day care owners to be keeping my dog safe.  If your friend is a good and contentious owner I'd say she should meet the dog owner if only so that they might agree together what steps to take next - including action against the day care centre.

It sounds like the day care centre have been lax, even negligent, and the same applies to the bitch owner, unless it was a first season or the bitch in question had unreliable seasons, even so you'd expect the owner to be more on the ball.

The question still remains what were the centre owners doing in allowing an intact dog seemingly unsupervised access to entire bitches? I know accidents happen but it does sound as though the centre were not properly supervising the dogs in their care.

As for the owner of the intact male unless the dogs involved are of the same breed I am not clear about her motives. She may want to be clear about her own dog's involvement and be taking some responsibility for the fate of any pups, which is admirable. She may want to establish the facts with a view to taking action against the centre. However,one also wonders if she is interested in making money from a litter. I too would be furious if my male dog was involved in an accidental mating like this.

If the owner of the entire dog is demanding contact with the bitch's owner it would suggest that the daycare centre know more than they are saying.

If they "didn't see" a mating take place why would they assume it was a dog in their care who mated the bitch? It could have been any dog at any other venue so would have thought they would be the first to point this out to the owner of both dogs. By not doing so it would lead me to believe that they know the entire dog who was in their care is responsible for the litter.

It is very easy as far as I am concerned, termination......... the end, problem solved!

It is an accident, my groomer does doggy day care and the two to three dogs she may have all run around and play together do people seriously expect daycare to run around checking that dogs are not in season, of course not, the day care person called as soon as she realised the male was too interested it is not that persons fault if they mated and I honestly do not know why the daycare would be responsible in any way unless they specifically state that dogs will not mix with each other or your friend asked that no interactions are to be made. Totally unfair for the daycare to have to take any responsibility IMO.

As far as the stud dog owner........ unofficially you could say toddle off, no contract, but...... if this is a show dog or one that is used as a stud your friends dog has just had free sperm and if this is a stud of any significance can fully understand why the owner is up in arms.

From my outlook it is down to your friend, it is purely an accident though nobody realised the dog was in season, so why is it anyones fault, but I really would solve the whole situation as first stated with a termination, I'd have my dog at the vets asap, wouldn't want an unplanned litter anyhow.........

The bitch owner also has a duty of care to her bitch.

Carrington the bitch is due tomorrow and only realised 10 days ago that she was in whelp so too late for termination.

What a sorry state of affairs for both dog owners.

With all due respect, not all bitches show any sign of being in season.   And not all bitches seasons are predictable either.

I am waiting to have a bitch speyed since this time last year.    She had a silent season a year last november, I was lucky to catch it.  There was no bleeding and swelling was minimal.  It was only because I was checking her twice daily with a white tissue that I caught a very slight coloured discharge on one morning.  That was it!  Of course other dogs showed some interest - but then that's no guide.  Most dogs we meet are so bad mannered they'd hump a hedghog if it stayed still long enough.

Bedlingtons actually get darker as they come towards a season, so I knew to be looking for it.  Most breeds don't do that.

I arranged for her to be speyed at the end of Feb, but it was cancelled as she came into season again.   Couldn't bear to have her put under after losing her mother so suddenly in June, so we waited for her next season.   Which she has just finished - another silent one.   Only a very slight swelling this time and another morning swab of slight colour!   I'm hoping that we can get her speyed in march.

If she were a heavy coated breed I might have missed it entirely.  Bedlingtons are helpfully trimmed very close around the rear end, so in that respect, like a short haired breed.

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts, the bitch is only a young girl and second season, no drops of blood on floor or fur and no other signs till daycare rang,bitch owner was in pieces and floods of tears for her girl, yes ten days to late to terminate, the daycare owner wants to meet with friend as I fear she is getting grief from male dogs owner, my friend has a castrated young male and neutered older girl was waiting for season to neuter later, they live in a remote area with enclosed dog garden so it has to be there and seems to us both that the daycare centre no more than letting on, but her concerns are with the young bitch and imminent whelping rather than a wrangling with dog owner

I have to say, I'm appalled that the doggy day care centre seem to be claiming that they didn't know about the mating.   If the dogs aren't being supervised at all times they are being left to themselves long enough for a mating to have taken place withouit their knowledge.  What if it hadn't been a mating but an attack resulting in damage?

I wold have thought this was negligence at least?

As for the dog's owner demanding 'rights'  - what if the bitch has contracted a disease from him?   will she be demanding to pay for the treatment?   Will she be demanding to pay for a Ceasarian should it be needed or any other treatment?

When was your friend's young male castrated?

I'm a bit sceptical about this:  I have never known a bitch - especially a maiden bitch - to be willing to be mounted by an entire male at the start of a season.    The owner of the bitch should have been watching for a season - especially the first one - and has not been diligent enough.    

The owner of daycare told the owner that the bitch was showing signs of season - if s/he had witnessed a mating, then s/he should have strongly advised a visit to the vet - she could have had the alizan injection.  The owner of daycare would also appear to to have been diligent either.

As for the owner of the "stud" dog, who is now demanding "rights" - I trust that s/he is prepared to pay 50% of the costs of these puppies!

If the males owners wants to take responsibility jump at the chance as it will cost a pretty penny to rear a litter.

The owner of daycare told the owner that the bitch was showing signs of season - if s/he had witnessed a mating, then s/he should have strongly advised a visit to the vet - she could have had the alizan injection.  The owner of daycare would also appear to to have been diligent either.

Exactly! The way I see it, they are the ones at fault. I know personally how a bitch can have a silent season and so the first thing you know about it is when you witness an unexpected tie! But at that point in time you can DO something about it. Surely somebody accepting entire dogs AND bitches into daycare should have enough dog knowledge to be able to cope and know what to do or at the very least ADVICE in a situation like this one.

As for the dog owner -what's the betting all they are seeing is another made up designer crossbreed name and pound signs?

>

>

>

Your friend's young male could still have been capable of producing sperm up to a month after neutering - was he neutered within the past three months?

Loki's Mum - Very good point.

Dill and GM, yes silent season is a possibility.

but her concerns are with the young bitch and imminent whelping rather than a wrangling with dog owner

Of course they are, she sounds to be in a terrible state, I actually would advise her for now (sorry didn't realise that the time for termination has passed) to not take any calls from the daycare or the said stud dog owner and concentrate only on the dam to be. Along with her vet if she needs any advice, please point her our way we will help as much as we can if she has any worries or concerns in rearing the litter or caring for the dam, what is done is done and now the only important thing is making sure that this poor dam to be, is going to be ok. :-)

Julie t when we have entire animals it is always a risk for both bitch and dog, if she wants she can DNA the litter and pay the stud the going rate for the breed if it turns out to be.......... I would advise if she takes this route to only do so once the dam and pups are deemed fit and well. Or she can choose to ignore the stud dog owner and view it as an 'act of God', as it is at owners risk to have entire animals, the dog could just as easily meet a bitch having a silent season on a walk and mate with it, the bitches owner could not sue the dogs in that case or vice versa.

The stud dog owner has no right to harass her and if she chooses the second route she should have no contact and leave the daycare to deal with it only.

TBF to the daycare owner it could well have been an unnoticed slip mating, I would hope that if she had seen a tie she would have said, but it could never be proved, she did call when the interest was noticed.

Morally for me...... it would all greatly depend on breed/s and if this is a valued stud dog of the same breed, if so personally I would pay the going rate afterwards, fair is fair, but if just a pet owner now wanting their pound of flesh, I'd say go fish....... especially if this is a mixed breed litter, they have no legal recompense only a moral one.

I hope your friend will be ok, she needs to stay calm for her girl and please tell her we will help in any way we can. :-)

Has the stud dog had all the requisite health tests for the breed?   Unless he has, there is no way that the owner should be seeking stud fees!

> Has the stud dog had all the requisite health tests for the breed? Unless he has, there is no way that the owner should be seeking stud fees!

Trouble is, everyone wants their pound of canine flesh these days and the weirder the breed combination, the more pound signs flash before their eyes. I bet the owner of the male wants a cut of the "amazing sums" (pfft!) these crossbreeds  "will sell for" (snort!) :(

Exactly dill, the young bitch is only 16 months and apparently carrying eight pups, she could need a section or worse, the male was castrated  at about six months I think .

Why on earth are you assuming the 'stud' owner wants a stud fee or financial recompense?  Nothing I've read so far suggests this to be the case

I have two entire dogs. If this were either of mine I'd A) want to notify the bitch owner of some potential health issues and B) want to get to the facts of the matter so I could decide what steps to take next.  Pardon my language but I'd be f'ing livid to find that one of my dogs was exposed to such a risk.  That said I'd want to know what procedures were in place for such a scenario BEFORE I left them in someone else's care.

I genuinely don't understand why sympathies seem to be with the bitch owner when the the dog owner has been equally misled and their dog badly managed by the day care centre...

From everything I've read so far there appears to be the suggestion that the day care centre owner knows more than she has let on.  This seems to be the 'truth' that both owners need to uncover and they stand more chance of doing that together

>I genuinely don't understand why sympathies seem to be with the bitch owner when the the dog owner has been equally misled and their dog badly managed by the day care centre...

The risks for the male are over, other than eh may be more knowledgeable re bitches in future, but for the bitch there are the risks involved with whelping and rearing a litter and for the bitch owner potentially a huge cost in time, heartache and money, and future worry over homing the pups, which if this is a crossbred litter is very likely to leave them heavily out of pocket to boot.

Yes Brainless I do appreciate that but still wonder why so many responders are assuming the dog owner is looking for money...

Sorry dogs a babe couldn't post word for word or would be like reading a novel lol, from things she said to the doggy daycare owner and how downright intimidating she had been, I fully appreciate both dogs could've been seriously hurt but thankfully weren't , I have no idea if the male is or was used as a stud dog and if I were the dogs owner damn right I wouldn't be happy either but  the bitch could've needed a section or worse doggy daycare have a duty of care and somewhere it was breached but hopefully it has been a lesson learnt, but on a positive note,the bitch whelped six healthy puppies in the night and mum is contentedly nursing her puppies.

Thankyou all for your input

Just to stick my 5 eggs in... When I owned an unneutered bitch years ago, it was my duty to protect her when she was in season. She certainly had other ideas but she was kept very firmly away from other dogs. As a day crèche owner, it was in my contract that I accepted no bitches in season & it was the owners responsibility to tell me if there was any way she could be in season ( & my responsibility to keep an eye on things & to notice things like the yorkie being in season - the owner lied to me). As a dog owner, I get very cross when people tell me to keep my dog away from their bitch because its in season. Surely the bitch shouldn't be walked where it will come into contact with males. I would be furious if either of my dogs managed to mate with any bitch. Rant over!

What like on the surface of the moon? You cant guarentee not meeting a male and a dog needs to be walked in season or not, we stay away from doggy walk areas as a matter of choice anyway but always on my guard a little bit more when In season as I dont want to attract unfairly males out walking. Animal Instinct is very strong as they want to sew the seed. Telling the owner to tell his dog is all well and good but you have an in season bitch in from of him so its very unfair on them both.  You cant expect them to have good recall when bitches are around and I keep my girls on lead if there is any dogs in sight. In this cynical day and age I do expect the males owner to be wanting a fair share especially if its a purebred dog. Like many in the dog professions these days you dont actually have to know anything about dogs to start a business.

When Candy was in season she was only walked very early in the morning or late at night to try & avoid dogs & was always driven somewhere well away from home. She did manage to get out once & was caught having 'fun' with another dog. I've walked my entire male on a lovely summers afternoon at a very busy beauty spot only to be told by a woman that her bitch was in season please keep your dog away. When I finally caught him the only thing I could do was take him home - end of walk. I don't know what the owner would have done if some unruly large male dog had tried it on as I don't think she would have been unable to stop him.

As for the yorkies owner. I think she probably was after puppies. She paid with a cheque that bounced

Regarding knowing a bitch is in season, with my about to be speyed bitch, who has weird seasons, She has been know to come into season at a show! 

I have wasted so much money on this bitch, not being able to take her to shows we have paid for, having to leave because she's come into season etc.  

Not all bitches are obligingly regular and show swelling and blood!  

And dogs are no guide.   I've lost count of the times I've been told that my regular bitches are in season when they are midway between.    I've even been told with great assurancce that my neutered bitch was in season!

At SOME point dog owners need to take responsibility for their ill mannered dogs!

Any update on the bitch?