Hi, I'm new to the forums. I'm looking for some advice...
We bought a 'Pedigree' Boxer pup for £700 from a private seller who has 3x adult boxers at home (mum, dad & uncle). This was mum's first litter. We seen the pics on a social network site first even before the pups were being offered for sale and enquired this way. We picked the first pup who has beautiful markings and was male, just what we were looking for. The pup was wormed and had the basic checks by their vet and we were told everything was ok. The seller also said that the pup was murmur free, just like his parents. He's been KC registered and we have a 5 gen history with him. We picked the dog up at 8 weeks old and took him home. We took him to our local vet for his first jag within a few days. The vet informed us that he had a slight murmur which is common and that he would re-check this on the 2nd jag visit. On the 2nd visit a vet nurse gave him his 2nd jag and checked him over, never mentioning the murmer, even though checking previous notes. We assumed all was well.
15 weeks old, we took him to a small fenced off park to run about. 5 mins in and quite hyper, suddenly his front legs gave way and he kinda fainted. We lifted him up held him and he was a little dazed. We panicked a little but 5 mins later he was fine. So as it was the weekend, we thought we'd leave and see how he was. He was his normal fine self, so we put it to the back of our minds. 2 weeks later we let him out the back garden for fresh air. He started chasing a leaf and got very excited again and his legs went from under him and he lay dazed. We lifted him inside and he was still like this for a few minutes and also urinated. Very worried now we contacted our vet and took him over the next day. Our vet listened to his heart and said he suspected it was Aortic Stenosis as he still had this murmur and refered us to a Cardiologist.
This was confirmed by the Cardiologist via an Ultrasound and ECG at an appointment 1 week later and she graded his heart murmur at Mild to Moderate. She said that Aortic Stenosis is common in Boxers. He maybe fine if it doesn't worsen more than it is, but if it does the prospect is not good. We have to go back in 6 months time for an Ultrasound and ECG again to check if it has progressed. The problem is we only insured him after his first jags. The vet has told us that as he detected a heart murmur at 9 weeks old, and this is pre existing and we are uninsured.
We had to pay £400+ for the Cardiologist fees and will have to pay the same again 6 months later. I've let the lady I bought the dog know about everything and she does seem concerned, but thats it.
The advice I'm looking for though is should I be seeking recompense from the breeder? Or is it a case of just unlucky?
We love the dog as one of our own but I feel wronged. I done all my homework and asked the right questions before I bought the wee guy and now it's turning bad. Just need other peoples opinions...

With my pup I'm sure i was told if a problem came up with in a certain time I could bring her back for a full refund. I know ive hurd this offered by some breeders.

Were the parents heart tested?

This was the lady's first pups ever from her Boxer bitch. She's not a proper 'Breeder' if you know what I mean. She's is a genuine nice lady and does love her dogs inlcuding the pups (ours too) and always asks after them. My wife loves our dog as one of own kids and wouldn't dream of giving him back for a refund. I love him too but I just feel hard done by spending £700 for a "Pedigree" and now £800 plus in the first year because of a heart issue he was born with. I don't know what to do :(

Were the parents of your puppy actually heart tested by a cardiologist?
Most pups come with free insurance for a few weeks, did you get that or continue with this as you can always claim on this to help ease the pain.

No, they were never properly heart tested as far as I know. The owner told me they attend regular vet check ups and both had no murmers or history of heart problems. She told me this as it was one of the questions I asked specifically before I bought our pup. I did see both parents a few times as they all lived together in the same house.
Yes, our pup came with free 4 weeks kennel club insurance. The seller though did recommend the PDSA insurance as a better deal than the KC. I checked this and it was, hence I went with the PSDA but this was after my first vet visit but prior to the fainting episodes :(

> No, they were never properly heart tested as far as I know. The owner told me they attend regular vet check ups and both had no murmers or history of heart problems. She told me this as it was one of the questions I asked specifically before I bought our pup.

If you had done all the correct research as you claim then you would know how prone boxers are to heart murmurs. Personally if I were buying a Boxer pup I would have checked that the breeder did do heart testing and then I would have insured the pup from the day it came home just to ensure that it was covered for any problem that may develop. If you did not do this then its hard luck really. It just shows how vital it is to do the correct research before buying an expensive addition to the family. The saying caveat Emptor applies as much to buying dogs as any other purchase.

I appreciate it is costing you more in vets fees than you expected but the fees you have paid up to now are not very high as vets fees go. Suppose your pup had eaten a sock in the intervening time before you started the insurance and needed an op? That could easily have cost you £400 upwards but then you wouldn't have been able to blame the breeder.

It is true the breeder should really have had the hearts tested but as a living thing a puppy  is always at risk of developing health problems in the same way that people are. If you choose to buy from a one off breeder who advertises on facebook or the like rather than a breeder who does all the health tests then you must take some responsibility if problems develop.

I am not really sure what you want us to say here. You say you are attached to the pup so don't want to return it for a refund but that is the most sensible thing to do bearing in mind that you may be faced with on going costs. If you were to buy a faulty item from a shop then the retailer would replace it but would usually ask for the return of the faulty item. A retailer would not pay ongoing costs in excess of the original cost of item and nor would they be liable to do so.

I suppose like so many people who post here when they have a problem you want us to say " Oh poor little you. You didn't do your reasearch, you didn't insure but nevermind. lets make the horrible breeder pay and keep paying just so you can keep the pup you are so attached to without any additional cost"  Well you won't hear that from me Im afraid. It is a bout time that people started to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, If you buy a cheap pup  and don't insure then expect to have problems. If you bought a cheap car out of the paper and dn't take out breakdown cover then it is no use whinging because the RAC wont come out to you. It is the same with dogs.

That's a bit harsh, newyork. :-(

Is it just a flow murmur or does he have an erratic heartbeat he could be showing signs of cardiomyopathy or with some lines JKD

Oh my goodness newyork - wouldn't be surprised if the original poster never returned to this site again :-(

I have no experience of heart problems or boxers  estekha so am unable to advise but am hoping that you do return here and that someone more experienced than I will be able to comment in a constructive manner.

>Yes, our pup came with free 4 weeks kennel club insurance. The seller though did recommend the PDSA insurance as a better deal than the KC. I checked this and it was, hence I went with the PSDA but this was after my first vet visit but prior to the fainting episodes :-( />

It's easy to get caught out this way, it happened to me with my last pup. Came with the free Kennel club insurance but as it was twice the price I insured elsewhere starting on the day I bought him home. I took my guy for a vet check only to be told his eye was a bit wet with possible entropian. There is a 2 week exclusion period so not covered.

The other option is to not get a vet check done for at least 2 weeks and if there is anything seriously wrong it may be past the point the breeder says they will take them back for a full refund.

In my case both parents had had all the recommended tests with good results and after being on a waiting list for 15 months I didn't want to return him.

Buying a pup is always a gamble, either take a risk with changing the insurance or pay twice the price for the kennel club one.

I haven't asked for money from the breeder, he had all the tests done, he successfully shows his dogs, he has done nothing wrong. Just bad luck.

Very sad story and the type that needs spreading around -this is why it is important to go to responsible breeders that are heavily involved in their breed, members of their breed club/s, showing or working, have a great knowledge of the breed, breed for a purpose other than just to sell pups or for fun etc. The purpose should be a wish to IMPROVE the breed. And of course can show you the health test certificates for the parents. Although occasionally a breeder may use their own stud dog, often this in itself should ring warning bells -a good breeder will pick the most suitable dog for their bitch regardless of whether he lives an hours drive away, 10 hours drive away or 2 DAYS journey away. They don't simply use the one that is most convenient, unless they can tell you very good reasons for WHY their own dog was the best match out of all dogs in the country/Europe.

The law as regards buying puppies from private sellers is basically "caveat emptor" which means buyer beware. I.e. it is up to the buyer to ensure they buy a healthy pup and if it isn't, you can't demand anything from the breeder as they are not running a business.  However you could take the breeder to court claiming the pup was unfit for the purpose it was sold for (i.e. a pet dog should be healthy and able to enjoy a normal life and normal lifespan), but you'd need to be able to prove that the parents had not been heart tested and that the breeder could have prevented the problem from happening.

I wish you the best of luck and hope your pup will be able to stay well for as long as only possible.

Very often 'one off' pet litter breeders are blissfully unaware of the health issues involving boxers..(any breed for that matter).
AORTIC STENOSIS A.S. used to be common in boxers and 20+ years ago I had the odd 'fainter'.

Since then, most reputable ( and informed ) breeders have health screened their breeding dogs and there are breed guidelines in place. The incidence has greatly reduced.

You can 'manage' the symptoms of AS, albeit easier in the older dog,by getting its blood pressure up before letting the relaxed dog run off and play.
AS is a narrowing of the major vessel leaving the heart...importantly to the brain...hence the faints ...so letting the dog  gently get its blood pressure up by gentle praise, play on lead ( or holding the collar) will help when the pup runs off...it will have a well suffused brain..... less likely to be starved of oxygen-giving blood.

As for your case against the 'breeder' I can only suggest they will plead ignorance and if their breeding dogs are untested then it truly is ignorance...only a legal professional could rule on their culpability.

Good luck with your pup.

I must add:
I have a 14 year old boxer here who was graded AS 1.....not enough to ever cause symptoms and a perfectly acceptable candidate for breeding under the guidelines ....not my point really.....
My point being ...that despite being graded at 12 months this bitches AS score is still a grade 1 at 14 years of age ( checked annually).... The good news.

One of my Boxers was diagnosed with Aortic Stenosis 30 years ago when it was first being recognised. He showed same symptoms as pup in first post. We were referred to Royal Dick Vet School in Edinburgh and saw Dr P Darke who was a well respected specialist. Klan was put on medication and as long as he didn't get too excited he lived a pretty normal life went to shows same walks as his full brother who I also had but did have to be on lead for most of them.

We went for regular check ups to Vet School and he was fine until he was about 3 then he began to need more medication and could cope with less and less exercise. I had him pts 3 months after his third birthday.

Breeder was wonderful as soon as I told her she offered to take him back and give us our money back or to keep him and have a pup from her next litter for free. Also immediately took all her dogs and several belonging to others to Dr Darke and had them checked they were all fine.

His full brother had a very slight murmer but lived until 12 did agility and eventually died of torsion.

Don't know how useful this will be but thought you might like to hear from someone who has had personal experience. There was an op he could have had but only available in London at that time so we never really considered it. We didn't have insurance but I have insured all my dogs since

Interesting to hear from Toolz how it is managed now

New York's post is perhaps rather blunt, but essentially true.

As No Murmurs in parents is mentioned, it could be that they were heart tested and if so then the Poster should be able to ask for copies of the certificates.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">New York's post is perhaps rather blunt, but essentially true.

I think this comment from newyork I suppose like so many people who post here when they have a problem you want us to say " Oh poor little you. is more than blunt and is bordering on the point of being rude and offensive IMHO. The OP didn't come over that way to me just asking for advice and giving as much information as they could. Yes they could have done more research and seem to have fallen foul of the common misconception that a KC registered dog means quality but they also didn't just buy the dog on a whim as so many do and then want to blame anyone and everyone when it all went horribly wrong.

Other posters have given advice and opinions in a manner that is informative and honest and less "blunt". I am sure the OP realises now the mistakes made and hope they haven't been put off asking for advice in the future. A costly mistake both monetary and emotionally :-(

> Other posters have given advice and opinions in a manner that is informative and honest and less "blunt".

Well said, Harley. Sadly I see here sometimes that people whose main hobby is their dogs and who have many years experience often forget their responsibilities, as one human being to another, to share that knowledge freely, graciously and without the arrogance that is often apparent :(

> This was the lady's first pups ever from her Boxer bitch. She's not a proper 'Breeder' if you know what I mean.
> just feel hard done by spending £700 for a "Pedigree" and now £800 plus in the first year because of a heart issue he was born with. I don't know what to do

Breeding even one litter of puppies makes you a 'breeder' - just like having children makes you a parent.  I'm not sure what you mean by describing her as not a 'proper' breeder - but sadly in this case it may well mean that she lacks the knowledge and experience to minimise the risk of this condition or to discuss with her puppy buyers what steps she has taken to health test and choose the best stud dog for her bitch.  Just owning a convenient male dog doesn't necessarily make him the best match...

Buying a pedigree is no guarantee of health, it simply means known parentage - a pure bred animal, rather than a cross breed.

I suspect you know this by now but I fear that you weren't sufficiently prepared or well researched in your chosen breed.  It is a known condition and would have been worth questioning at the researching stage and discussing in detail with each of the breeders you talked to.  It's so important for you as a buyer to beware, and to make sure you know about the breed you want.  It is also the breeders responsibility to make sure they make the right decision when breeding AND that they take the time to educate their buyers.  The good breeders do - and you as a buyer need to find the very best when you are looking for a puppy.

I don't believe you have any official recourse - after all it was your decision to buy and not a pressure sale BUT you must impress upon this woman the implications of her 'pet breeding'.  I would write to her explaining the condition that your puppy has been diagnosed with (and how it might be avoided in future).  This breeder may well have made mistakes but you did too and this is a situation you could both learn from.  Even with good research we sometimes find our dogs have health issues but it's a hard mistake to make and you have my sympathies - I do hope everything turns out ok for you and your boy.

Sadly unless parents were tested by a certified cardiologist vet there is no way that the owner/breeder of parents
can be 100% sure that they were murmer free.

It's true that a few years back Boxers were one of the top breeds to suffer with aortic stenosis but however with the help
of the cardiologists and a breed specialist/genetics expert a heart testing screening scheme was evolved (in the early 90's)
and then after two tune in days where all the cardiologists listened to a select group of Boxers and agreed a standardised scoring of
heart grades by auscultation. This with a suggested (& accepted) breeding guidelines was adopted by the showing section of the breed and thus
in just over 20 years the incidence of severe/high grade scores within the breed is no where near as bad as it was.

If anyone wants a Boxer puppy I would always suggest that they always ask about heart testing scores and only go to view puppies from heart tested clear parents. The Boxer breed council website has a list of dogs that have heart tested clear for aortic stenosis for breeding purposes.
http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/heartlist.html The dogs are listed by their KC registered name in sex and alpha order.
Only dogs listed here have either been graded 0 or 1 or cleared by doppler (D)
If dogs aren't listed here you need to request that you see the certification that the cardiologist provides when the dog is tested.
If they don't have certification walk away there's no excuse for not having the test done, it can be done from £12-15 per dog at most breed shows (once the dog reaches one year old or older)

Yes in puppies it is common to find that they have innocent puppy flow murmers which do disappear as they got older.

I do know of Boxers that had grade 2 or 3 AS murmers and they did reach the average age of a Boxer (10 years) and one was older and didn't require medication. One with the grade 3 murmer they had to be careful and not let him get over excited or take him out for walks in the heat in summer.
It just all depends with your puppy if the murmer gets worse or stabilises and you won't know that for a while.
As to what the breeder is responsible for I guess it depends on their own morals/ethics as to if they will give you any recompense or offer to refund purchase price of puppy and have puppy back etc.

Hi and welcome.
I, like you bought a pup from a non professional breeder ( a working Patterdale breeder who usually supplies his pups to farmers and people needing a natural rat catcher as a working dog ) I have had dogs all my life and should have known better, but there were 2 pups that were so beautiful I allowed my heart to rule my head and we took on both pups. My daughter had the male and I had the female.
I insured on the day I collected the pup, but within 2 days my pup was in hospital with Parvo. I was in the first 2 weeks of insurance so illness was not covered. It cost me almost £2000 to get her through this terrible illness, but she is well worth it. At least this was not an ongoing illness as your dogs heart problem could be, so once the credit card was eventually paid off I felt reasonably safe as all other things would be insured.
I am so sorry but as in my case the breeder did not want to know about the costs and I think this will probably be the same for you. If you love your pup as I believe you do, then you will need to have a credit card to hand and put the rest down to experience ( although experience did not stop me from making a mistake ) however I would not be without my little girl even if she turned out to be the most expensive Patterdale in the world.
I doubt you will get your money returned, so just enjoy your pup as we are all aware on this forum that the 10-12 years of a dogs life go by so very quickly that we need to enjoy every day that we can.

>> If you had done all the correct research as you claim then you would know how prone boxers are to heart murmurs.

I did, as that is why I asked the breeder if the parents had any murmurs or heart problems.

> Suppose your pup had eaten a sock in the intervening time before you started the insurance and needed an op? That could easily have cost you £400 upwards but then you wouldn't have been able to blame the breeder.

It would have been my sock so my problem, I would have paid. Anyway what's that got to do with what I asking?

> I am not really sure what you want us to say here. You say you are attached to the pup so don't want to return it for a refund but that is the most sensible thing to do bearing in mind that you may be faced with on going costs.

I was looking for advice from other dog owners who have been in a similar situation. Obviously you haven't been.

> I suppose like so many people who post here when they have a problem you want us to say " Oh poor little you. You didn't do your reasearch, you didn't insure but nevermind. lets make the horrible breeder pay and keep paying just so you can keep the pup you are so attached to without any additional cost"  Well you won't hear that from me Im afraid.

I wasn't looking for your sympathy, far from it! You've made yourself sound bad here. I would love to meet you and give you a hug, as I feel you not had many in your life.

> If you buy a cheap pup  and don't insure then expect to have problems. If you bought a cheap car out of the paper and dn't take out breakdown cover then it is no use whinging because the RAC wont come out to you. It is the same with dogs.

Since when is a £700 puppy cheap? That is the going rate from most breeders I looked into for a Boxer pup. £700 is a lot of money to my family and I. And I did have insurance (4week KC free). The problem is I changed it to the PDSA for a cheaper but better insurance deal. Because I done this after his 1st jags and when the vet heard the murmur, is why I'm not covered.

Anyway, thank you to everyone else for your comments, much appreciated :)

Thought this might be of interest to anyone who might find themselves in a similar situation - What Citizens Advice say - http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_professional_and_financial_services_e/consumer_vets_and_pets_e/consumer_pets_e/pet_becomes_ill_or_dies_after_buying.htm
"If you bought the pet from a private seller

If you bought the pet from a private seller, you have less consumer rights than if you bought from a shop or organisation. You can only get a refund for the cost of the pet if it didn't match the description the seller gave to you. So if the seller described the pet as healthy, you have a right to a refund.

If you didn't ask the question about health and they didn't describe its state of health to you, there is nothing you can do".

If the parents of the pup are heart tested clear, and you have seen the certificates and/or have copies of them, they have done all they could to ensure the pup is healthy.   

What more could they have done to prevent this?   

At the end of the day, a pup is a living thing.   It's not a commercially manufactured item which is made in a specific way from standardised parts.

Did the breeders keep one of the litter?    This is often a good guide as to the reason for breeding.    Breeders who breed to keep a pup are taking the same chance as their puppy owners on how healthy the pup will be, so are likely to be breeding for good health.  

Dill the OP said the parents had only been checked over by the normal vet not a cardiologist, no certificates, and it was the lady's first litter and she was not "a proper breeder" so sounds like a back yard breeder to me.

estekha, you may think that you had done your research but in fact you hadn't begun to reach the tip of the iceberg!  :(
Firstly a reputable breeder would have been keen to show you any health certificates that they had got from specialists.  A check with the local Vet is never sufficient in any breed with specific problems.  And secondly, they would have insured their puppies to be covered from the time they left them.  Both of those things would have meant that you would not be in the situation that you now find yourself.  :(

£700 is cheap for a health tested puppy - I would expect that to cost nearer £1000.  But the cost too would ring alarm bells for me.  It costs money and time to health test and to rear a litter of puppies well.

For you in the future and for anyone else reading this thread who is thinking about buying a puppy, this might be of help.
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

£700 is cheap for a health tested puppy - I would expect that to cost nearer £1000.

Surely that is breed specific. I have never even charged £700 myself for any pup, currently £650. From ticket winning health tested parents.

>£700 is cheap for a health tested puppy - I would expect that to cost nearer £1000.

Definitely breed specific. £700 would be top whack for a dalmatian.

"If you bought the pet from a private seller

If you bought the pet from a private seller, you have less consumer rights than if you bought from a shop or organisation. You can only get a refund for the cost of the pet if it didn't match the description the seller gave to you. So if the seller described the pet as healthy, you have a right to a refund.

If you didn't ask the question about health and they didn't describe its state of health to you, there is nothing you can do".

You said the parents had been checked by there vet right? If they did that and also had the pups checked by there vet (asuming they did as u said they said pup was murmur free) and there vet said no murmurs then tecknely according to that they surely would be covered as they will have proof the pet was healthy when sold to you. So nothing officially you could do.  Even if you are covered by it I'd asume all you could do is return the pup for a refund like you would do with a faulty toaster (as in law dogs are possessions just like a toaster) not keep the pup and get money back.

Was there a puppy contract? If so what did it say about illness.
Have you spoken to the breeder again since the diagnosis? (Can't rember if u said u had)

£700 is the going rate at the moment in my breed, but only in the last year, tends to go up £50 every couple of years as costs increase.

£700 is cheap for a health tested puppy - I would expect that to cost nearer £1000.
I have a friend in Boxers and her successful in the ring, health tested pups went for £875 last year,  a little more than in my breed too.

Goldmali,

Sounds like one to me too.   

This was in answer to a more recent post,'where they claim to have 'done everything right'

>If you had done all the correct research as you claim then you would know how prone boxers are to heart murmurs.

(Answer) I did, as that is why I asked the breeder if the parents had any murmurs or heart problems.

The problem  here is that,  they haven't done  all they could  to ensure that they bought a healthy pup and won't accept that they really could have done a lot more research.

Research
I did 2 years of intensive research of my breed before I even tried to find a breeder.   By then I knew all about the different lines, notable dogs in the breed, the breeders, and any health testing needed and exactly which lines I wanted to see in the pedigree - and why!   When I bought my pup, I knew the ball park price of pups in the breed, but only asked the price when counting out the money.   And all I wanted was a pet!

Needless to say, the only surprises I've had have been good ones.