>Your posts have convinced me that there is no way I would send a dog out to the states even though my breed is neither cropped nor docked over there.

I'm in contact with someone who sent a puppy to a person in the US who specifically wanted a UK puppy with button ears; he was sent on the understanding that his ears stayed natural. Once the pup was over there she had him cropped. You can imagine the reaction of his breeder.

JG,

Ditto!

The problem with Pooch lover's argument is that she on the one hand wishes to protect her right to do just as she pleases with her dogs but simultaneously castigates and mocks those who hold strong moral/ethical objections about cropping and docking because these might endanger the quality of dogs in her country. It's quite a leap. In a nutshell she seems to demand we just drop our pesky moral views, both strongly held and enshrined in law, lest we 'damage' the bloodlines of various breeds in her country....go figure. If concern is so great it seems to me that the initiative and accommodation should come from the person/country with the problem, the expectation should not be that everyone else changes to suit them.

But since a dog is just an animal, there's a different standard for how I can treat it.
What a horrible attitude to animals, yes they are 'animal' but they deserve respect  and love. Respect for the way they look naturally, respect for their needs in life, and respect for their well being.
To be able to cut bits off to make a dog look the way you want - and for no other reason than this, surely this is the height of 'Designer Dog'.
If you cannot love and appreciate a dog in it's natural state then you really should not be allowed to own a dog, as ownership is far more than just having a dog with amputated ears or tails, it is actually caring for 'what is best for them' and NOT what is best for you.

>they won't be able to show it

That isn't true, at least with cropping, as some US owners prefer to not crop, though it is against the general trend.  As for docking, again nothing to prevent someone showing an undocked traditionally docked dog, but I suppose it may hinder them more in the ring competition.

Even when docking here was pretty universal there were some people who chose to not dock and showed their dogs, a friend showed her fully tailed Welsh Springers.

Dill
It sounds to me as if you don't actually take much notice of dogs, apart from wanting to cut bits off them so they fit your idea of looking the part.

I think you should at least take a more detached stand on the basis the UK icon of 'self proclaimed' canine excellence (KC UK) was blasting its propoganda all over the net, bombarding MPs & pet owners to make political moves to retain tail docking in all docked breeds.

If the hypothetical chance were available now KC would start a campaign to support all breed tail docking on dogs traditionaly docked- so the beloved KC supports Hairypooch on tail docking because it never rescinded its stance on supporting tail docking for all traditionaly docked breeds:

................................Quotes from 2005:

....................'KC urges parliament to consider the facts' -

................."A ban on tail docking will compromise welfare"

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/January2006/News270106/kcurges.htm

Heathspaw personal view:
Poor old UK dogs, they used to be a UK human companion animal, with the advent of the net they became little more than a political pawn generated & perpetuated as such by a screaming minority of internet jockeys & their globaly discredited KC!

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Docking has justification in preventing injury to tails in breeds with a propensity to damage when worked.

Cropping is totally different as it has no therapeutic benefit.

Some countries view elective neutering in the same light, but most countries consider the social benefits to overrule this, and it does in some cases have similar preventative benefits to docking.

What do dogs do? For the most part, they eat, sleep, lick themselves, and cuddle with you.

Indeed, if that is all the owner CHOOSES to do. Which I would say is such a waste, when there is SUCH a lot more you can do together, and you have such a lot more fun and get a closer bond when you DO something with your dog.  Don't you even WALK your dogs then? Or train them? Or have any fun?

Barbara, yes it is clear that there is an exemption in law for working dogs that might require docking to protect their well-being and health. What is also clear is that docking will not be carried out for purely
aesthetic reasons.

There is no inherent contradiction or ambiguity in this, as some seem to be trying to suggest.

> I am concerned that, with American dogs being excluded from participating in breeding and showing outside N. and S. America and Asia (and breeders in those continents use American dogs anyway), desirable traits might be lost or undesirable traits might start appearing more widely in our stock.

Escuse me if I am being ignorant, but if you are of the mind that it is fine to surgically alter a dog to suit your taste - to make it look as you want it to look, how can it matter what traits it's born with - you can rush it to the vets for cosmetic surgery.

Or have any fun?

Yea!! & on the odd occasion folks can catch those unexpected, unpredictable amusing few seconds on video to look back on for decades to come as memories!

The Defeat Of Artemis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4wAWfjDQa4
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Marianne,

The more we learn about the complexity and power of the canine brain the more questions it raises. Did you see the programme the other night about new research on canine separation anxiety?

People that view dogs as unthinking and broadly unfeeling objects really do belong to another era.

The more we learn about the complexity and power of the canine brain the more questions it raises. Did you see the programme the other night about new research on canine separation anxiety?

People that view dogs as unthinking and broadly unfeeling objects really do belong to another era.

Indeed! And yes, did see it.

I think another era is the point. The direction of travel over decades in the developed world is towards according more and more rights to animals.

It is already nothing like true under UK law that an animal is simply a piece of property with which you can do as you like. Under UK law a dog is an individual being with a distinct set of individual rights, penalties for the infraction of which can be quite severe. This will only become more so.

"It is my property, exists only for my amusement and I can do with it as I wish" is nothing like true in UK law, nor should it be. "Animal rights" is not some crazy fringe belief, it has been a mainstream concept in UK law for centuries. Our treatment of animals, as of any group weaker than the dominant, is a measure of our civilization as a society. I don't know the situation in the USA.

Poochlover As you have insulted me by assuming without ever meeting me or knowing anything about me and lumped me under the "Nutter" heading I feel I have the right to answer you.  I feel sorry for you. Your inability of not being able to share the love and companionship dogs can give you, is sad. A dog gives unconditional love and devotion. The way you describe your dogs as status symbols, possessions, fashion accessories and the need to make them look more frightening is such a shame. Dogs have every right to expect to be treated with love and care. Not to be mutilated to suit your whims. Sometimes it is necessary to inflict on our dogs some pain through medical need, we (Those of us who are true dog lovers) worry and  comfort, we feel our dogs pain, we nurse and suffer with them but we know the pain is transient and is part of recovery.Sometimes we understand the pain is something we cannot control, the discomfort and distress is not going to go and we give them peace the only way we can. Having just lost Merlot my heart dog and mourned her as I would a child I find it impossible to understand the contempt that some people hold towards animals. To inflict the pain and distress caused by cropping on a dog is in my book despicable. I would never inflict any unnecessary discomfort on a dog. If you are so fixated on looks to the extent of causing mutilation then you in my book rank amongst the lowest.
I see dogs who have been mutilated through medical need every week at the hydro pool, legs removed through cancers and accident, I see loving owners who will move heaven and earth to make the dogs lives worth living. They feel their dogs pain and try to improve it.
You however feel it your "Right" to chop of offending bits of your dogs body to suit yourself. You find nothing wrong in purposely inflicting pain and discomfort to another animal, you are happy to put an 8 week old baby puppy through the stress and pain of ear cropping and the constant dressing changes and  wedging stiff supports into your puppies ears, you do not care that your  tiny puppy has to undergo the dangers of a general anaesthetic to suit your likes, you do not care that you are removing an essential part of your puppies communication system. And all because you think it looks nicer. You and others who support ear cropping must think yourselves superior to other animals who live on the earth. You rank amongst the other so called superior beings who think it acceptable to slowly kill bulls in bullrings, fight dogs together, those who kill parents of young bears, monkeys, elephants etc.. and capture their young  to dance and perform for them. All of this is manipulation of other animals to suit  the needs of humans.
You think I am an animal rights nutter ? well if this is your yardstick for measuring that name I am happy to wear it.
To answer your question ? Then NO if I had a breed that was cropped or docked in your country  and someone wanted one of my puppies Over my dead body would they get one.
I cannot abide people who use animals as inferior creatures, all the  life on our planet has a right to be treated with respect. I am not a vegan, I do not hold an unrealistic outlook, but I do respect everything else and treat it with care. I uphold my morals and  am happy to live with them.
Aileen

"My question was answered that, yes, there are breeders who won't sell to Americans because we crop/dock, and my response is that is spiteful and shameful."

I can't possibly agree with this statement - all breeders are perfectly entitled to decide where they place their puppies, be it at home, or sending them abroad, surely.   Spiteful?   Shameful?   Really?!!   This would only apply to cropping in any case and personally if I had a breed that was cropped in other countries, I'd be thinking twice about risking sending a pup I'd bred to be put through that procedure.

I have to say there are many breeders in the UK who prefer to sell their stock inside the UK - period.   Further, as two I sold to a breeder in the UK, then sold them to a breeder in Europe without telling me until after they'd gone (and I had a stud agreement on the male too), if I was still breeding, as well as the non-breeding endorsement I put on all my immature stock, I'd be putting not for export on them too.

I'd be thinking twice about risking sending a pup I'd bred to be put through that procedure.

I know that when docking was done it was done at only a day or so old, dont know about cropping but it would have probably been done at the same time. Tail docking here was generally done by the breeders by biting the tail off, scissors or less common putting an elastic band on to stop the blood supply so the tail dropped off, I dont know what method is used for sheep.
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It is also permissible in the USA to have dogs debarked and to cats declawed.   Both are illegal here in the UK.    How many people here would be happy to think that this could happen here?

> dont know about cropping but it would have probably been done at the same time

No, cropping is done at about 3 months old, and requires many weeks of dressing changes and taping to force the ears to stay erect. A totally different welfare matter than docking.

Lambs are docked and castrated with tight rubber bands.

I know that when docking was done it was done at only a day or so old, dont know about cropping but it would have probably been done at the same time.

Ear cropping is done much later, several weeks to months of age. As you like YouTube so much, here is a video of a US vet explaining the procedure, including of how larger breeds are best done at 8 weeks, smaller at 12 weeks. Quite worrying that the dogs have to be on pain medication for a week afterwards and that it can at times take 4 months worth of taping etc until the ears actually stand up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzej9r4msCg

USA to have dogs debarked

It was and probably still is in Aus, no idea of any other countries.

How many people here would be happy to think that this could happen here?

If a dog is causing a noise nuisance each incidence is a seperate offence punishable by up to £5000 fine for each offence & a criminal conviction, councils don't take the view that in and around conurbations built for human communities a dog has more rights express itself by nuisance barking than humans have to enjoy the peace and harmony of their own home.
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A dog that barks enough to be classified as a noise nuisance by the local council is NOT a happy dog. It takes quite a lot of prolonged barking for a council to be able to act!

and requires many weeks of dressing changes and taping to force the ears to stay erect

Yes I know about that & thats correct.

No, cropping is done at about 3 months old

I dont think thats correct, the reason I say that is because I was communicating with several German,& a Danish Dobe breeder about a pup appx 2002 & they all asked if I wanted docking & cropping done so they could take a pup to Belgium and have it done there as it was legal in Belgium at that time.
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they all asked if I wanted docking & cropping done so they could take a pup to Belgium and have it done there as it was legal in Belgium at that time.

Well I found a video on YouTube where a poor Dobermann pup was cropped AND docked at the same time and it was over 8 weeks old!!! Guess it saves them the hassle as it has to go under GA anyway then!

sillysue
respect for their needs in life, and respect for their well being.

Well KC says its beneficial to dog welfare to dock tails:
Hethspaw,
I was referring to non working dogs as I understand that the OP was also speaking of show/pet dogs. We have 3 Boxers with floppy ears and long tails and no tail damage at all even when running about playing like loonies. To tell me that my dogs lives would be better with mutilation is an insult, just as to mutilate a dog to make it look the way you feel a dog should look is also an insult to dog lovers throughout the world and to the animal welfare that we as a civilised people ( in most cases) have managed to accomplish. Pet dogs are beautiful as nature intended and should not be designer or fashion accessories.

>>No, cropping is done at about 3 months old
>I dont think thats correct

Ear cropping information

Here's the American Dobermann club explaining how pups are cropped between the ages of 7 to 12 weeks:
http://dpca.org/PublicEd/tag/cropping

Thanks for the links, I did not know they cropped ears as old as that (7-12 weeks) when it was legal.
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I was referring to non working dogs

The link i gave was to KCs policy in 2005 in their fight against docking for ALL pedigree dogs - KC dont want to seperate working line dogs & what might be called show dogs, simple reason, KC makes the money for registering all pups from pedigree breeds in UK, about 6 years afo the fee was £12 per pup + if the new owner wanted to register one of them in their name they also paid another £12 = a 'potential' income to KC of £24 every pedigree dog born, it might be more than £12 now.

If those from the working community used a different, non KC register, it could badly compromise KCs commercial monopoly on pedigree pups & in a decade or more just about make KC non existant in terms of  a breed registration club.

In mainland Europe the national breed club issues and registers pedigrees NOT the national all breed general dog club, which is all KC is.
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Just tagging on the end here. I am wondering what our American "friend" would do with her dog i f the ear cropping should go wrong. A search on Google finds many images of badly cropped dogs. Some slightly comical in a sad way and others quite horriffic. Presumably if her beloved pet was disfigured then it would soon find itself at the local pound.

Hethspaw - surely your puppy would not have been able to enter the UK until approx 10 months old - hence the enquiry about cropping?

surely your puppy would not have been able to enter the UK until approx 10 months old

I think it was 11 month but with pet passport they did not need to go into quarantine kennels here for 6 month as it was before, It was possible to spend a lot of time over there during that period & quite a few did that, I doubt the money spent staying & in fact tavelling in Europe quite a bit was all that much more than quarantine kennels would cost, remember petrol was quite cheap then, i had an ex in Austria i spent (still do occasionally) quite a while with her.
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Very few Boxer puppies have been exported to the US for that reason and yes I'm sure the US is suffering from its isolation over cropping.
The workmanlike physical qualities of the breed are totally diluted by the emphasis on ultra elegance. The great long necks and the ridiculous long cropped ears ( many of which fail and break down because of the extreme length) only serve to change the look of the breed from its European roots.

All of you who are feeling satisfied and boasting about keeping your dogs away from mean, ol' nasty American breeders, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. It is not just OUR dogs that will be disadvantaged, but yours too. Dogs on both sides of the Atlantic have strengths and weaknesses. It won't just be American dogs that will start to pass on faults or health problems, but yours as well when dogs in your country and Europe will become more closely related with time! All because you want to force feed your morals down other people's throats! Yes, I mean the people in those so-called civilized countries! I don't think there really was any choice for opponents of the docking ban, was there? Since autonomy in the EU doesn't seem to exist. When one country bans something, the others follow.

Quite - I imported 4 under those rules - no cost saving at all!

>It won't just be American dogs that will start to pass on faults or health problems, but yours as well when dogs in your country and Europe will become more closely related with time!

That's when AI is useful; you can use genes from abroad without risking your actual animal. :-)

>It's ludicrous that some countries, to my knowledge, won't even allow cropped/docked dogs into the country, never mind to be shown! Is it true that even the offspring of such dogs will be disqualified?

You still haven't answered my repeated query about which countries these are.

It won't just be American dogs that will start to pass on faults or health problems, but yours as well when dogs in your country and Europe will become more closely related with time!

There are "one or two" countries in Europe and pretty easy for all of us to get to these days either for mating or importing or even just showing, most of us do it, we have so many countries we can get to by car -France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Denmark in particular, so we have a lot of new bloodlines available to us. So I think it's more likely the Americans that may end up with problems because of your actions, not us here in the UK.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">All of you who are feeling satisfied and boasting about keeping your dogs away from mean, ol' nasty American breeders, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Which IMHO would be preferable to cutting off ears for self gratification and self- aggrandisement  "Part of why I own dogs is because I want something pleasing to look at. It's not as much a joy, for me, to have a floppy-eared Dobie or any other cropped breed as it is to own one that looks menacing and intense. Yes, it boosts one's ego to show off such a dog, just like it does to show off expensive cars or clothing".

Ethical, responsible breeders here only sell their dogs to the best homes possible and I think the statement "Therefore, I see it as my right to do to my dog what I want." would exclude one from making it onto a waiting list as a suitable home for one of their pups.

> All of you who are feeling satisfied and boasting about keeping your dogs away from mean, ol' nasty American breeders, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You might have forgotten, or simply didn't know, that because of our strict quarantine laws, we [inthe UK] weren't able to import without great expense until VERY recently.... 6 months strict quarantine in kennels due to rabies laws.

Maybe you are thinking that the USA will become isolated because of Europe's unwillingness to export to a country that hasn't fallen in line with the rest of the world, but we managed.... Quite well, in fact.

Why do you want our dogs anyway, when you have Asia and many other countries that allow cropping to import from? I don't see the problem, unless you are cheesed off that we have something you want, and won't be getting it.

Some of us have even flown with our bitches to the USA for mating, others have been importing semen for years, but mostly people who want to reciprocate with bloodlines will respect the others viewpoint and send uncropped dogs to UK, so they can be shown, (otherwise they can only be bred from) or accept that a UK breeder may not wish to have their puppy cropped, and if they really want the dog will adhere to the stipulation, or more likely import semen, especially as AI is so much more commonly used in the USA..

> All because you want to force feed your morals down other people's throats

Poochlover - this is a rather unnecessary vitriolic attack.  You asked, in a quite reasonable manner, whether there are UK breeders that refuse to export knowing their puppies might be subjected to docking or cropping.  I suspect you might have guessed the responses you'd get, and you got them.  To then attack those people who offered an opinion contrary to your own suggests you only asked the question to stimulate an argument.

IF you have a personal desire to import UK bloodlines then might I suggest you temper your approach.  Few good breeders will find your attitude appealing on any level and you set your cause back a very long way.  As to your assertion that we might judge ALL American breeders to be 'mean' and 'nasty' then this is yet another instance where you have greatly misjudged your audience...

Would I knowingly export any animal to a destination whose practises and customs I disagreed with?  No

Oh, really, Goldmali? Well, there are still sensible breeders in Russia and Japan among other places. Think of how many breeders there are in the U.S. and Canada - all those dogs to choose from! Don't be so complacent, and if you really were thinking of the welfare of dogs, you wouldn't be boasting about less dogs being available to spread genes!

I have sent three puppies to the US. They won't be subjected to surgical alteration.

I wouldn't have sent a Boxer puppy however.....because I didn't want my pups cropped...end of.

It's all nonsense about the US missing out in the gene pool...they've cornered the market in Repro medicine and shipped semen from any country is available to them.

An exported puppy sent to the US to be cropped and shown would be for THAT reason only...to show.

> Don't be so complacent, and if you really were thinking of the welfare of dogs, you wouldn't be boasting about less dogs being available to spread genes!

So why are you so uptight about breeders in the UK not wanting to send their dogs abroad to be mutilated, when you have SO MANY OTHER sources?

Is it because, as I said before - because we have something you want and you feel frustrated you can't get it - or are you just wanting to start an argument? You have the rest of the cropping world to import from, as you've said - so why pick a fight with us???

Of course we can be complacent. We've managed to breed some spectacular uncropped dogs for 175 years and that despite a ban on imports due to our quarantine laws. I think we've earned the right to be picky.

Is it because, as I said before - because we have something you want and you feel frustrated you can't get it

I brought up that fact because you sound a wee bit cocky about the quality of British dogs, as if they're the last hope for purebred dogs and our dogs will be lost without yours! I wasn't saying UK dogs are better than ours, so don't get the wrong idea. We clean the floor with you people in some breeds and vice versa. Let me remind you that our dogs have won at Crufts and if you look at where most Australian breeders get their dogs from - that's right! From the good ol' US of A! Like I said, don't be so complacent, thinking it will only be U.S. dogs that will be affected.

>  Let me remind you that our dogs have won at Crufts and if you look at where most Australian breeders get their dogs from - that's right! From the good ol' US of A! Like I said, don't be so complacent, thinking it will only be U.S. dogs that will be affected.

So you don't need us then - what's the point of your argument?  Seems like you only came on here to gripe about our animal welfare regulations. I am deeply puzzled as to why you feel the need. I bet you get the same response if you asked Australian breeders about ear cropping, so why are you on such a mission here?

>I brought up that fact because you sound a wee bit cocky

Cocky? what the heck? This is a country that had huge restrictions on animal movements for more than a human lifetime. We had to abide by that, and Gosh, if we have managed to breed some decent dogs while that was in force, well we certainly have the right to be proud!

Jeangenie, I believe Switzerland is one country where they won't allow altered dogs in; I'm not sure if there are others, but I would guess there probably are.   I vaguely remember something about a country banning offspring of altered dogs from showing, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. If someone has information about that, please share.

> I vaguely remember something about a country banning offspring of altered dogs from showing

In your dreams. That's like saying cropping a dog would mean its puppies would be born cropped.  Get a grip.....!

What is your problem with Europe and a huge chunk of the world disliking what you like? Do you feel insecure? Threatened? cos it is surely coming across like that - OR you are trying to "make us see the error of our ways" and we SHOULD be trying  to over turn a 175 year old law in our country to comply with your own beliefs and preferences?

Good luck to you... hahaha!

MsTemeraire, I said I think I read that somewhere. It's not so far-fetched. I've heard of some draconian laws in my time, so that's why I didn't just dismiss the possibility that that law could exist!

I'm not trying to get a campaign going to make ear cropping legal in the UK. Things were fine until the tail ban was passed! That excludes tons of docked terriers and sporting breeds from UK shows (where the public has to pay).

Hopefully I'm just being an alarmist, but fewer breeds qualify to show both in the UK and America now, which means there will be less exchanges between the countries. I'm worried about the longterm affect this ban will have on gene pools. I started this thread out of that concern and I was hoping the answers would prove my fears unfounded.

You are being alarmist. And failing to see the bigger picture. Sorry, but that's the truth.
Have you ever travelled outside the country of your birth? I know that's an odd question,  but I feel it's relevant.

Yes, I have, but it's been a while. Why?