A friend of a friend knows someone who has had an accidental litter. Unfortunately the father is epileptic. Does anyone have any idea about the inheritance of Epilepsy? Obviously the litter shouldnt have happened but now its here what is the best course of action? Eutanise the pups? Let them go to pet homes with a warning they may be affected? the bitch will be spayed after this but the male was deemed to be too much risk to anaesthetise hence he is still entire.

It's something of an umbrella term for a range if neurological/seizure disorders with no clear markers as yet, so no testing, but some types may be inherited so affected dogs should not be bred. In breeds where epilepsy is thought to have a higher occurrence it is advised not to breed until they are fully mature that is as late as five for some studs, since the condition may not emerge until then.

Actually, I've just checked and in 2012 a marker was found in Belgian shepherds that is associated with idiopathic epilepsy, the condition does not emerge until around 3 years. I'm sure that Goldmali will know more.

Anyhow, further progress may have been made and it is almost certain there is a heritable factor, others will know more.

My very first dog (A Belgian shepherd) was spayed as it turned out one of her litter mates was epileptic.

In her case it only came to light that the mothers litter brother was epileptic after she had been bred from (they didn't think to tell the breeder), it only coming to light when the brothers owners got involved in Agility, and met up with the breeder at a show by chance.

Personally I would have had the bitch injected with Alizin when the pregnancy was discovered or spayed (after all even a late spay would be no more risk than a C section).

At worst I would have the pups put to sleep at birth, but why did they let it get so far!!!

Now there is already a litter what to do, I would not touch such pups with a bargepole, and it would be totally unethical to home them without letting the new owners know, and of course they could be open to litigation.

Thank you. The breed is not Belgian Shepherds although any information is useful. My friend has come to me for information as she seems to think I am a dog expert! If only she knew the truth!
Anyway. I have tried googling and found some information about studies. What I havent been able to find out so far is whether it is a foregone conclusion that all pups from an affected parent will be affected too or whether some will likely not be affected. there are 6 pups in the litter so it is a lot of potentially epileptic pups to find homes for but the person who has the litter does not want to put the pups down unless there is a certainty that they will be affected.

Is any of the sires direct family affected - brothers, sisters, dam and sire etc?  If he is so severe he can't be anaesthetised for neutering but no close relatives are affected at all I would wonder if it si simply that he is not wired right in some way beyond anything that could have been inherited or would be passed on.  In that case I personally would be trying to home pups with appropriate warnings at this stage.  If on the other hand there are affected relatives then I would think it more likely this is hereditary.

I know we are discussing dogs, not people, but,as a mother of a daughter with epilepsy - nearly 45 now, has been affected since age 1 - the concept of euthanising these pups because they might develop the condition seems a bit extreme. What sort of message would this give to people with epilepsy? I do understand that it will be difficult to find good homes for these pups, but surely there must be some other way? :-(

> it would be totally unethical to home them without letting the new owners know, and of course they could be open to litigation.

As I understand it they are planning to tell people about the epilepsy if they rehome the pups. I am not sure why they would be open to litigation? It is not illegal to breed from epileptic dogs even if highly undesirable.

As to why the litter was born as I understand it the owner had been ill and in and out of hospital, the dogs were kennelled at times and no one spotted the bitch was in season nor was the pregnancy. It only came to light when the bitch produced a pup! I suppose in a largish, coated breed it could happen. I only know what I was told and don't know the person involved directly.

There is certainly an inherited tendency with epilepsy, but it's not clear exactly how it works, because two non-fitting parents, themselves from non-fitting parents, can have pups that have seizures. Certainly no affected animal should be used for breeding; I know of a line of Jack Russells where many of them are on high levels of medication to manage their fits. Luckily the line is no longer being bred! It's very surprising that the dog was considered too high an anaesthetic risk to castrate (neutering often reduces the number of fits) and yet wasn't given the Suprelorin implant if he was knowingly being kept with an entire bitch, whether or not she was in season. I hope that's happened now so the accident never happens again.

It would definitely be wise to warn potential buyers of the higher-than-normal possibility of epilepsy in the future because it's a very distressing condition for the owners to watch as well as thedog to undergo; euthanasing them seems a litle drastic.

Hope they can be 110% sure of their homes; I know someone with a young bitch from an accidental mating of a previously epilepsy producing dog, who was very, very close to breeding on from her.
It's a worry :(

I think it is a tricky one since not all the pups may have inherited whatever gene/s might make them vulnerable to developing the condition and one also has to consider environmental factors which also play a part but as yet are not known/defined. As already pointed out the epilepsy may be triggered by something in the environment and the issue of heritability is then moot, since that individual may also have a makeup that makes them more susceptible to seizure disorder and certain gene being switched on by something environmental. It is a bit chicken and egg.

I think that it would have to be stipulated that the pups are neutered/ never used for breeding and prospective owners would have to be told that a parent had developed epilepsy. The issue then is if anyone would want a pup.

I would try to find out as much as possible about lines of dog involved and incidence of epilepsy, as well as patterns within the breed. Is it a breed that is more prone and what types of epilepsy are most involved. What does the breed health council advise?

>The issue then is if anyone would want a pup.

That's really what I meant, that if the breeders are honest who will want a puppy, and fi they don't tell then they could be open to litigation if a problem develops. 

Rock and hard place. 

Too late to do anything now as the best options would have been to abort the litter (prevent the possibility altogether by previously rendering the male infertile,) or PTS at birth.

Perhaps the best way then, is to neuter all the pups early, to ensure they can't be bred from, and then give them away for free or a small fee, with the new owners told about the epilepsy in the father and the possibility of it in the pups and a signed contract to say they knew?

I don't agree with early neutering, but in this case, it would at least ensure that the pups cannot be bred from.   We all know what happens to promises when money is involved ;)

The other alternative, is to keep all the pups until they can be neutered at the 'normal' age, and then rehome them for free or a small fee, with the owners fully informed of the possible epilepsy and a signed contract to prove they knew.

There is a third option tubal ligation and vasectomy (both less invasive but rarely considered). 

This will render the pups sterile but leave their hormones intact, which will allow them to develop normally.

The bitches can be spayed once mature, and the males castrated if required for medical or behavioural reasons.

I was in this situation with the last litter we bred.   I used a dog who had been used many times before.   A while after my litter was on the ground, and sold (we kept back two, a male and a female as it was a lovely litter), I heard the male had, at age 8, been put down suffering with epilepsy.   And I then discovered (to my horror actually because I had NO idea) his mother was also similar affected, starting fitting at about the same age.    There was nothing I could do because the litter was, as I recall, around 2 years by then, all apart from our two, having gone to pet homes.   There were 5 males and 1 bitch in the litter.    I immediately refused any studs from my male and had his sister spayed, without issue   As it happened neither developed epilepsy to the end of their days (11 and 12) and I didn't hear from any of the other puppy owners, and those puppies all went with non-breeding endorsements, as all my immature stock did.

After I heard this, I researched the pedigree, and found there was enough running through on the dam's side (odd things like potential brain tumours etc.etc.) to suggest it was there, on his dam's side.   Happily for me, the only connection between him and my bitch was on the sire's side although it was basically an outcross mating.    I still wasn't prepared to risk it being passed on (bearing in mind epilepsy can skip generations).   I felt the buck had to stop somewhere.   Luckly, I suppose, I was getting to the end of my bloodline (my age) in any case.   Had this been earlier, I'd have been devastated.   But I'd still have stopped my line.

If I was your friend, I'd definitely endorse the puppies but sell them to good pet homes.   I'm not sure about warning the owners - that would depend on who the owners are and whether knowing this would cause them to panic.   I guess another answer could be to hold onto all the puppies until they can all be neutered?  But I'd not euth. because of a 'risk'.

Add -  Moot point about not telling the new owners, and the risk of litigation, bearing in mind the breeder knows!!!

What a pity the"breeder"didn't have the dog implanted with the yearly superloren implant & have their bitch spayed.

Too late if the litter is on the ground & to PTS the puppies now rather than just after birth isn't really the thing to do. I wouldn't give the puppies away, I would charge, but make it very clear that the sire has epilesy & get it in writing from the new owners that they are aware. Obviously I would be extremely careful where the puppies where placed & ensure that they are neutered at the appropriate age.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing :-(

thanks for the replies.  As I say this is not someone I actually know I don't know the exact reason why the dogs werent neutered. I was told the boy couldn't be anaesthetised and the girl was due to be done  but the owners illness prevented it and the dogs were kennelled and the kennels didn't spot she had come into season.

The main reason for posting  was I was asked about whether the pups were all likely to inherit epilepsy because the owner will ask her vet to put the pups down if this is the case :( I believe the pups are only a couple of days old. I don't know what the plans are if she keeps any/all of them alive.

If the pups are that young, and as the future is uncertain mainly as far as new owners go (who would want to take the risk in acquiring such a pup?), maybe the kindest thing to do is have all pups but one put to sleep and for the people to KEEP that one puppy. (I'd hate to see the poor bitch left with none!)

It is a great shame their vet did not suggest Suprelorin for the dog -or indeed Alizin for the bitch once she'd been caught. I had an epileptic dog castrated, he had two fits during the anaesthetic and bit one vet and one nurse in the process so yes it was dodgy, we were lucky he came through it. (Not a Belgian but a Golden Retriever, thankfully in my BSD variety epilepsy is extremely rare in the UK, it is seen more often in the two more common ones).

As has already been said -epilepsy don't always show up for a few years and it isn't know how it is inherited, but I certainly would not want to breed from littermates or parents of dogs that have had epilepsy, and to have a pup from an affected parent would be a big risk.

I just spoke to my friend and I have got it wrong. The owner asked the vet to put the pups down but he wouldn't as they seem healthy now. The owner is now trying to work out what is the best thing to do as she cant keep all 6 pups. Hence wanting to know what the likelyhood of the pups being affected.

If one of the parents is epileptic, and the fits aren't due to a head injury or brain tumour, then there is a much higher-than-average chance that the puppies could also be affected. There's no guarantee that they will, either.

From my first-hand experience, I'd suggest it would be highly unlikely for ALL the puppies in the litter to be epileptic.   Again the incidence of this would be higher if there is epilepsy on both sides of the pedigree - evidence of dogs behind the dam being affected.  

None of the puppies we bred, from a sire who later was put down with epilepsy developed it.  BUT it could come through in later generations - in SOME of the puppies, not all of them.    I believe the vet made the right decision for these puppies at this stage.   Why put them down on a 'might'?  Having this litter put down on that basis, wouldn't remotely be something I'd do.

Placing them could be difficult, but personally I'd choose the homes carefully and, thinking further about this, given we are into such a litigatious society these days, make it clear to the new buyers, in writing, what the situation is.   Given this is ONLY a might!!!   I was lucky that the dog we used wasn't put down until several years after we'd used him.   I didn't immediately pick up the phone to my puppy buyers either.   Mainly because at the time of the mating, I didn't know.   I didn't want to alarm my puppy buyers unnecessarily, which as it turned out, it would have been.   I'd have dealt with any problem if it happened.   Once I knew the situation, I withdrew the 2 pups we'd kept from any breeding programme.

You may be interested in this :- http://www.ashgi.org/home-page/genetics-info/epilepsy-other-neurological-issues/epilepsy/the-road-to-hell.

C A Sharp is a recognised authority on the incidence of epilepsy in Australian Shepherds, and her work is widely regarded.

Thank you for the link Lokis Mum.

"Picture an elderly woman losing her beloved companion to this horror.  Picture a child witnessing his best buddy contorted with seizures.  Picture yourself and whatever dog you hold dearest to your heart going through this hell."

And yes, it is HELL to live with. I really do feel it is one condition that requires serious money thrown at it and some hard decisions made by breeders. At one time you hardly heard of this condition in dogs but now it is common place and very little is being done about it.

Having had two epileptic dogs (I bred the first one, the second came from Dogs Trust), it is certainly hell to live with and it would be extremely unethical of the breeder not to warn/inform potential owners of the situation and stress as strongly as possible that the pups are neutered (breeder's contract if possible). Freelancer said 'the condition does not emerge until around 3 years'. This is not true - the classical onset for epilepsy is from 3-6 years but it can occur at any age and in the Obedience world we are increasingly seeing young dogs being put down before the age of 3 because they can't get the fits under control. A truly terrible disease and not a position to put any owner or dog in, if you can help it.

We had a lurcher who had her first fit along with her first season at about 8 months old. She was put to sleep at about 3 years old after fitting one evening  for over 4 hours and the vet being unable to bring her out of it.
She had to be kept separate from the other dogs if we weren't there to supervise as the older collie was so scared she would attack her if she fitted.

> Personally I would have had the bitch injected with Alizin when the pregnancy was discovered or spayed (after all even a late spay would be no more risk than a C section).
>
> At worst I would have the pups put to sleep at birth, but why did they let it get so far!!!

Thanks for everyones thoughts on this. I just thought I would follow up with some general information that I have found out. first of all this person did ask the vet to put most of the pups to sleep as soon as they were born because of the risk of them inheriting epilepsy but apparently 2 different vets refused to do so because the pups also might not inherit epilepsy.

I had a chat with my vet the other day and discussed this case in general terms. My vet told me that they would only do a spay on a bitch in fairly early pregnancy. If someone came to them with a late pregnant bitch and asked to spay to remove the pups they would not do it. I know on this forum it is often advocated that bitches should be spayed to remove unwanted pregnancies and this is often advocated for  bitches taken in at rescue centres who are pregnant, rather than letting them have a litter of unwanted pups. However it seems that vets are not willing to do this. Obviously the best solution is not to let your bitch have an accidental pregnancy but don't rely on your vet to help if it does happen.

Marisa,  I was referring there to idiopathic epilepsy in Belgian Shepherds. I also made the point earlier that epilepsy may not emerge until a dog is 5 or 6. This was not to say that epilepsy cannot show much earlier, we know it can show very early, but that breeders should not assume that a potential stud dog from a breed and line where epilepsy is more prevalent can be assumed to have the all clear if symptom-free at 2-3 yrs of age.