We (a family of four) have an 8 month old flat, Charlie, who we love to bits. Generally he is easy to train but when he is off lead and manages to get a few metres away from us he won't come back on command. He behaves like this for my husband, the 'pack leader', and for me. In the house or in the garden he always responds to the 'here' command and he is very good on other commands such as sit, stay, lie down. He gets 3-4 walks a day totalling about 90 minutes. He hasn't been castrated. At the moment we can't let him off the lead which is a shame, as he loves to smell and follow a scent. What advice can you give me?

He's reached the 'Kevin' stage I'm afraid. This is when he will try and push the boundaries and see what he can and cannot get away with. Go back to basics, give him a reward, food, toy or whatever floats his boat when he does come back. Start off in the garden or other enclosed space. Make a fuss and get him to love you more than the smell, keep it fun, Flatties hate being shouted at or roughly treated. If he will come back in the enclosed space move to more open spaces but on a long line so that you are still 'in touch' with him. Do you use a dog whistle, if not this will be the best time to introduce one and reward everytime he responds to it to get him into the habit of associating it with nice things. Mines are started on it as tiny pups when feeding them and they can now range in front, although they never usually get that far away from us through choice, and as soon as the whistle is blown they bounce back.

Another good trick I use for mine when they are young is just to turn and walk away if they are being stroppy about coming back. Flatties being Flatties don't usually like to be left alone and more often than not they will come charging after you if they think they are being left.

Thank you! What you say makes a lot of sense. I think I have been getting frustrated with him and while not shouting at him, I haven't been praising him whenever he eventually does come back. So, as you say, it's back to basics. And we will certainly consider the longer line and the whistle.

A few things here -forget about pack leaders and the like, it is now known dogs do not work like that as they don't see us as part of their packs as we are not dogs. :) Try to never call him unless you feel fairly sure he WILL come, as the more times he is called without bothering to come back, the more he learns to just ignore being called.  Always have your pockets stuffed full of really nice treats and call dozens of times during walks -you can start doing this on a lead or line if necessary. I keep this up during the entire life of the dog.They never go far from me (or if they do, they keep running back to check where I am) as I am a lot more fun than anything else, and they know that nine times out of ten when I call them, all I want is to give them a treat, a game with a toy or praise them, then they can run off again. Hence they never know when they are being put on the lead again. Never call him just once during a walk to put the lead on as he will learn that being called equals all the fun ends. Being called should mean the opposite -fun! Even if the lead is put on it means praise and treats is given. And yes, I start at 8 weeks and  run away from my pups, hide, change direction without saying so, this is something I also keep up for life, and the pup very quickly learns that he has to keep his eyes on ME or I may vanish, not the other way around.

Thank you!

Always praise and reward when the dog returns to you - even if you have been trying to get them back for a while because you want the return to you to be a great experience for them. I know just how frustrating it can be but always make that return a brilliant experience. One of my dogs had a fantastic recall and was always the first to turn even when  in full flight he would  come back the second he was called - much faster than the others- until the day he put a rabbit up and was off like a shot and deaf to my calls.

He was gone for nearly an hour in a huge area of woodland and I was in a right state. I had rung my daughter and she was on her way to help me search for him when I saw him in the distance trotting along the top of a wooded bank. I called his name and he  looked up as if to say "Fancy seeing you here". I discovered it is perfectly possible to call your dog in a very enticing sing-song voice whilst uttering the most rude words imaginable and calling him every rude name you can think of. He came prancing back to me and I rewarded him with a treat and a fuss when in all honesty I felt like throttling him :-) A long line became my friend and still is on some days :-) Your dog won't understand you are frustrated because it ignored you but will instead associate your frustration with him returning to you so next time he won't be so eager to return as it's not the most exciting experience.

Goldmali's advice really works :-)

I discovered it is perfectly possible to call your dog in a very enticing sing-song voice whilst uttering the most rude words imaginable and calling him every rude name you can think of.

Haha, yes indeed!! :)

> I discovered it is perfectly possible to call your dog in a very enticing sing-song voice whilst uttering the most rude words imaginable and calling him every rude name you can think of

That's exactly what I used to do :) Always, always praise for coming back using whatever expletives you like in a happy voice :)

Hi Joan

An 8 month old Flattie - how lovely!

I agree with the other advice you have had - go back to basics, practise recalls in the house and garden without distractions and build up very slowly to recalling when out, only calling him when you are sure he will come.  Lots and lots of yummy treats and masses of praise when he does come back even if you feel like murdering him!  As Goldmali says, changing direction frequently when walking and hiding behind trees, running away from him and dodging behind bushes to make him concentrate on where you are works wonders (even if it earns you some funny looks from other people!)  As mentioned, training to the whistle is really worthwhile too.

For various reasons we  made the mistake with one of our boys (now 7) of not training a really good recall when he was very young and as an adolescent he learned how self-rewarding it was to lollop off  to greet other dogs and people, only returning to us in his own good time.  It took a lot of hard work and commitment to sort him out and he's very good now although I still look out for dogs in the distance and distract him before he sees them, just in case!

With the pups we have had since we have made excellent recall an absolute priority and the difference, using the methods described, has been amazing.  It's worth working on and getting right so that everyone stays safe.

For anyone really struggling with problem recalls I would recommend Pippa Mattinson's book 'Total Recall' - it's brilliant though does require some long term commitment for the methods to really work 100%

Good luck with Charlie.

Lots of great advice here. So glad ours isn't the only dog who takes off without a backward glance!
This is my first post but I will definitely be checking in here again....

> I discovered it is perfectly possible to call your dog in a very enticing sing-song voice whilst uttering the most rude words imaginable and calling him every rude name you can think of.

:-)  :-)

I've got a very large garden where I just can't chase a dog, I have to rely on recall.  One bitch is a so and so.  But if I shout "come here so I can give you a good hiding", she races back to me, tail wagging, and her lips pulled back to give me a smile.  Little sod!

>  I discovered it is perfectly possible to call your dog in a very enticing sing-song voice whilst uttering the most rude words imaginable and calling him every rude name you can think of.

It certainly is, and I've gone so far as to suggest some of my training clients try it for different problems - one in particular couldn't stop himself telling the dog off when she was aggressing at other dogs, so I suggested that if he felt better saying it, then at least he could say it in a happy but calm tone.  He did and she started to progress much faster straight away!

Remember to vary your rewards - dogs are very selfish animals, they want to know what's in it for them for doing as we ask.  With recall, this is especially true as you might be calling them away from something really good!  But, even their most favourite treat or toy will get boring after a while - so mix it up.  Sausage one day, chicken the next, ham the next.  Or vary it over a few weeks.  Mine do well having frolic chunks most of the time so long as I occasionally throw in some meat but in the early days, it wants to be really high value most of the time.  You can use the better stuff for better recalls though - say, a biscuit for a decent recall with no distractions, but a bit of sausage for a recall with dogs around (or whatever treats work for him).

A trick I use with my dogs now if they are not recalling from a specific thing (usually dogs) is to begin (on lead) by clicking them for looking at the thing (you can use a word if you're not clicker training, so long as it has a strong 'this means food' association) the *instant* they look at it; pretty soon they start to stop when they see the thing, so I start to click that instead; then soon after that they'll stop and look back for the treat, so I click that instead.  Doesn't take long and turns the thing they want to go see into a recall cue so they see it and come back before you've said anything :-)

At the moment we can't let him off the lead which is a shame,

Yes your right & the longer it goes on the more pent up, frustrated and lacking in his quality of life he will be/get.

The hard facts are, you can go on & on for years with half results, no results & an occasional one off success trying to accurately interpret and apply bits & pieces of fragmented information to  specific situation you find yourself in at any given time, all the time your dog will be missing out big time on living his life as am offlead dog & not an onlead prisoner.

You need an obedience training course so your equipped to resolve problems as they arise I suggest you make your mind up and learn first hand, especially as you can ask questions at the time when problems arise, try a trainer from the Guild of dog trainers see link below.

http://www.godt.org.uk

I have no commercial interests in any dog related issues.
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>I have no commercial interests in any dog related issues.

Unfortunately you also have no interest in reward-based training either, only punishment-based.

Unfortunately you also have no interest in reward-based training either, only punishment-based.

Spoken by someone who

a) is trolling the original post asking for advice & offers non
b) who does not know me or me her
c) who makes things up in her Alice in Wonderland make believe world
d) admitted on one post that she never lets her dog off-leash & keeps it as a prisoner cause it will not recall when distracted
e) who has not posted a single video of her prisoner dog & has posted here not to answer the posters question but to justify keeping dogs as prisoners, her full knowledge of 'keeping a dog'.

Here - an example of the freedoms you have denied to your dog all its life & exactly what the poster has asked for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6LPdyGY0w
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> d) admitted on one post that she never lets her dog off-leash & keeps it as a prisoner cause it will not recall when distracted

I have seen photos/videos of JG's dogs off lead in open fields thoroughly enjoying life and also coming back on command ........... as have many other contributors to this forum .....

> b) who does not know me or me her

Exactly

>d) admitted on one post that she never lets her dog off-leash & keeps it as a prisoner cause it will not recall when distracted

A complete lie; all my dogs go off-lead daily in open countryside, and recall, and always have. Find the post you claim says otherwise.

Denis, this rant of yours is an excellent warning to people who might otherwise be fooled by you. If you're going to post training advice, please be honest and say from the start that you only believe in training using shock collars. Then everyone knows where you stand.

A complete lie; all my dogs go off-lead daily in open countryside, and recall, and always have. Find the post you claim says otherwise

I thought I saw a post by you about not being able to let a husky you have offleash but i cant remember the exact post, it was sometime ago, if that was NOT you then my apologies for that bit.
.

JG does not have a husky so before you lash out with such comments please check your facts

JG does not have a husky so before you lash out with such comments please check your facts

Your post makes me feel sort of bad because I did not realize she is so weak she needs a mum figure to speak up for her, not that it matters, I made 4 further points which I did not rescind & you 'overlooked', the most important of the 4 is that she deliberatly initiated a troll post to take the post off topic, not a rational thing to do but normal for some to do those things & normal for others to justify them & the bizarre behavioural trait which originates such posts, maybe an attention getting mechanism.
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do you know what I wish I hadn't posted as you aren't worth the hassle goodbye and JG can more than take care of herself with the likes of your sort

take care of herself with the likes of your sort

Me (my sort) don't know either of them nor they me...well.......er, err, me sort!
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Who is this ***** who keeps cropping up with an attitude problem!! I am a Flattie owner, as the name suggests, and my 'bitty' information is given based on similar problems with the same breed over a number of dogs and years and find this works for me. The vast majority of Flats need the nicely nicely treatment and no harsh treatment hence my suggestions to a felloe Flattie owner.

Do you use a dog whistle, if not this will be the best time

I 100% agree & for dogs in general, simply condition an emotional positive reinforcer with the whistle, thats the most powerful reinforcer a human can condition, see vid lik for a short version of method & then practice the method in at least 20 different environments with a slow, but graduating in intensity, of distractions - by 'different' environments even the other side of the same park can account for 2 but as many different as you can - Dont overdo it - 3 or 4 mins in 2 different places a day is enough, - see video link below for a short, method demo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W3s3UfAgO4
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I let my puppies off lead as young as possible(in a safe environs of course)from the day them, no good waiting until you have a good recall in training & then letting the dog off. Most dogs don't like coming when called because they have learnt it is the end of being free & enjoying themselves. Calling the dog back, putting on lead & treating & then letting them off again means the dog learns to come when called & get the lead on is rewarding & not the end of their play.

Whistle training is really as the tone of the whistle remains the same unlike an owner calling a none responsive dog as try as they may it is very difficult to not change the tone of the voice.

>I thought I saw a post by you about not being able to let a husky you have offleash but i cant remember the exact post, it was sometime ago, if that was NOT you then my apologies for that bit.

I don't have, and never have had, a husky or any other spitz breed. Get your facts right before throwing accusations around if you want to have any credibility at all. The rest of your diatribe was just laughable and not worthy of a response.

J
I don't have, and never have had, a husky or any other spitz breed. Get your facts right before throwing accusations around if you want to have any credibility at all.

HP
Yes, your quite right which is why I apologised unreservedly, for that part.

J
The rest of your diatribe was just laughable and not worthy of a response.

HP
.........yet here you are, responding & not laughing!
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Well said, Flattiemum!  Do hope the poor OP who is new to the site is not put off by the aggressive and unhelpful posts of just one poster and is able to take all the very good advice offered by others.  It would be good to hear how s/he is gets on with her recall training.  Meanwhile, it's time for me to put the ***** on 'Ignore' - don't know why I haven't done it before!

JoanK, have you ever or do you still go to a training course with your dog?  As others have said there is an element of an age related problem - teenager - and some breeds are a bit prone to get distracted but a training course, with a good trainer could help.  Classes are an opportunity to practise in a safe environment and get some objective feedback about your handling skills.  You can try all sorts of different treats and other incentives, practise silly voices, and talk to other owners.  A regular training class will increase your knowledge of your own dog and often really improves the bond between you.

Sometimes just learning a few new techniques, and working around the problem - to improve overall attentiveness - can make the world of difference and be enough to get you operating as a team again.

Do ask around for good training class and ask the trainer if you can go and watch first.  The APDT website is a good place to start :)

Oh and sometimes you have to pick through the range of advice you receive on a forum such as this to find something that suits you and your dog and, sometimes, you might just need to ignore the odd poster...

>I let my puppies off lead as young as possible(in a safe environs of course)

Same here.  I have a breed which leaves home at 12 weeks.  I rarely have a pup that doesn't return by the time they leave home. 

> Spoken by someone who

> a) is trolling the original post asking for advice & offers non
> b) who does not know me or me her

Like you've never done that yourself Denis? Bahahaha!
Get a life.
You can't even correctly match posters to their comments, and even after "apologising" you still feel the need to have a dig.

At the moment we can't let him off the lead which is a shame,

Yes your right & the longer it goes on the more pent up, frustrated and lacking in his quality of life he will be/get.

The hard facts are, you can go on & on for years with half results, no results & an occasional one off success trying to accurately interpret and apply bits & pieces of fragmented information to  specific situation you find yourself in at any given time, all the time your dog will be missing out big time on living his life as am offlead dog & not an onlead prisoner.

You need an obedience training course so your equipped to resolve problems 'as they arise' I suggest you make your mind up and learn 'first hand', especially as you can ask questions 'at the time when problems arise', try a trainer from the Guild of dog trainers see link below.

http://www.godt.org.uk

I have no commercial interests in any dog related issues.
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JoanK, do you use a whistle for recall? I find it extremely useful because its tone never changes; it never sounds cross or anxious (hard to disguise in your voice no mater how much you practice!) so there's no disincentive for the dog to return. The sound also carries a lot further than a voice, even into the wind. It's never too late to introduce it - simply practice indoors so there are no distractions, starting by 'peeping' the whistle three or four times when you feed your dog so he learns to associate coming towards you for food to the sound of the whistle. It's doesn't take them long to make the connection.

He's also just hitting the 'Kevin the teenager' stage when (as we know with our human children) they start feeling much more independent and push boundaries. Training classes would certainly help. You should be able to find classes from either this list of Association of Pet Dog Trainers or on the Kennel Club website. It's never too late to start - I've just started doing Good Citizen classes with my nearly 3 year old to help her concentrate on me when there are more distractions. We're both thoroughly enjoying ourselves, so do give it a try!

Think I'll just not bother posting as I gave most of this advice in the first reply to this lady

When threads start to get long sometimes things are missed, we're all guilty of skim reading at times and the more info there is to go through, the more is likely to get missed.  Don't take it personally and besides, if more people say the same thing then it suggests that it is indeed a good thing to try :-)

'When threads start to get long sometimes things are missed, we're all guilty of skim reading at times and the more info there is to go through, the more is likely to get missed. '

I'm regularly guilty of this ! Also age related poor attention span. But, love the bit about sing song voice whilst using unprintable expletives -it works ! Doggie returns and I have vented my 'spleen'

Re. Huskies. I am in Budapest a lot of time and regularly see huskies, off lead, trotting along side  their owners on busy streets and boulevards. Am amazed by this level of obedience.

Perhaps it's a different lifestyle?  No knowledge of Budapest at all, I will say that straight away!  But just thinking aloud; here, dogs' lives are very controlled - they don't roam, they have set exercise times, usually for a husky nowhere near as much as they are designed to do; perhaps out there they have more freedom to mooch about so aren't so giddy and wanting to run?

As I say, purely thinking aloud though :-)

dogs' lives are very controlled - they don't roam

Nikita, Can you clarify if your talking about dogs in general or just Huskys? - i am unclear as to what you mean by "roam" its a bit ambiguous as if you mean when they go on exercise they are restricted all the time to be in close proximity to owner or just put out the house and left to roam alone anywhere & everywhere, can you please just clarify?
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Dogs in general, and roam as in put out of the house to go wherever they feel like (or at least, doors left open so they can come in and out as they please).

My Lab boy forgot, or ignored, his fabulous recall when he got to 18 months.  I got it back with North/South fetching, something I learned on a U.K. gundog board.  I used the N/S for our field work but then realized I could morph it into recall.  Treats are poor compensation to some dogs and mine responds like magic to a throw of the ball.  Oh, I used a whistle at first but now I can whistle, yell or hand signal and he comes flying.  I do have to regularly reinforce this so I do carry two balls when we are out off leash.  I have no way to proof against the distractions of wild turkey, deer, bicycles, (well I probably could bicycles) snowmobiles or dirt bikes and a recall instead of chasing one of these is worth a huge reward (long, long throw, maybe a couple) in my books.  Might work for your Charlie?

Maybe I should note:  a few metres away is not a problem for me.  I'm in large safe areas where a couple of metres is nothing to worry about.  I don't want to nag and overuse this N/S.