Thank you Alfieshmalfie for your post, it has been very helpful as I seem to keep my dogs very similar to you.

I felt the same as a lot of you on receiving my letter but, after really thinking about it, I want to continue with my ABS membership. Until I have my visit (which I haven't booked yet) I don't know if I will or won't pass but the one thing that is always in the back of my mind is dog breeding will be targeted for regulation eventually and I'd rather the KC had a huge role in it than ,for example, the RSPCA.

I breed simply because I enjoy it.

It gives me a great feeling of fulfilment when I see how excited people are when they collect their long awaited puppy.

I hate to think if I didn't do the health tests the puppies I bred may later be afflicted with a preventable disease. I owe it to the prospective owners and puppies to do the best I can.

And before you ask, yes they all go to vetted pet homes.

Can I just point out that even though I have only one dog registered under my own kennel name and have quite openly said that I realise that even though Ive owned dogs in a serious way for over half my life I consider myself a novice breeder, I'm not sure whether the 'pet breeder' was directed at me? I have my own kennel name, am a member of my breed club (where you have to be nominated by two people),  I have a working strain so don't show but I do compete as it can't all be about showing surely? I've also spent 3 years researching pedigrees and studying working lines and my girl was considered of a high enough standard to use a twice winner of a certain working championship. So even though my girl is first and foremost a family pet does that make me a pet breeder and therefore not seen as good enough for the ABS in people's eyes? Her pups have gone to competition homes in most cases, but are ultimately pets, companions and part of the family.

As a non-breeder can I just say that the KC AND breeders (of any ilk) have got to get things sorted ASAP :( If I want another dog in the future I really don't know who I would go for ?? A breeder on the scheme - who may be a really good ethical one or may be a canny puppy farmer OR do I go for someone not on the scheme who may also be a puppy farmer , a good breeder or someone who just thinks they are too good for the scheme !!

Hopefully I know enough after years on this forum to know the difference and find my way to the right breeder for me. However, what message is this sending to Joe Public reading this thread ?? Perhaps I'll just get a rescue - probably as much chance of getting a good dog as work my way through the minefield disclosed here :(

>it was all very friendly and professional.

I have a friend that 'was' a member of the ABS, the lady that visited was also very friendly and my friend felt confident after she had left, she even complimented her on the reports back from new puppy owners - when she had the written report come back, it was the complete opposite of what she had said to her!

And whilst I was not aiming to insult anyone I also have never understood the reasons why. When I had my first pet of the breed I had no intention and never did breed from her. It was only later when I wanted to show and improve what I had that I began down the breeding line and I still think there can be 2 tiers. One for those who do meet standards another for those who go into it more. In fact they already do it as one of our top breeders was nominated and got this although just being a large kennel and breeding quality dogs is of course not for everyone.

Charlie Brown I am with you all the way here. What you describe is my modus operandi. While I do belong to four breed clubs,  I do not sit on committees -it's not my style and do not have the time to travel the long distances to meetings that this would entail. Committee membership is no guarantee of good practice, as I have been made aware of. I am super careful about the lines I breed from and when buying in a puppy, have done my homework assiduously to ensure that only the best are bred from. I breed one or two litters a year and have travelled far for a stud although I now have a lovely boy whose  great great grandmother is still with us aged 15 next birthday.
I do all the health screening and more and the puppies are reared in optimal conditions. I always have a waiting list of thoroughly 'vetted' potential buyers, some of whom have come back two or three times for a puppy over the years. I do not show but puppies of my breeding have been shown and been successful in doggie activities. As a member of the ABS since its inception, I have been disappointed by how easy it has been for breeders to join and indeed to continue in the scheme when their practices fall far short of expectation . I hope that the new inspection process will make it more difficult for such breeders to remain in the scheme. I will then believe that I really am part of something special. Being  a good breeder is not dependent on being a regular participant in the show ring. Showing is a hobby although I do accept the most show breeders participate because they truly wish the best for their breed and wish to demonstrate this. On the other hand, breeding and not showing is no way synonymous with puppy farming/back yard breeding .

Oh dear ! I was expecting this. I breed as a hobby but (and not a big but !) because I have a life long interest in this breed ,having had the breed for as long as I can remember. I feel I have a lot to offer by way of breeding a healthy dog, of good temperament and which is typical of the breed as it should be. I really do not want at this point to go into the woes that have beset my breed but I know that what I do is good. There is a demand for my puppies and there are many breeders like myself who have occasional litters that meet that demand . Why should we feel second rate just because we choose not to show ? Why should puppy buyers, who have done their home work and researched the breed and offer excellent homes fall into the trap of buying a puppy from a breeder who does not health screen etc simply because there is no other recourse? This is the reality of the situation. Goodness, the true puppy farmers etc would be gleeful if breeders like myself stopped breeding. Many years ago I had the misfortune to buy in a boy bred from 'top' show lines. Sadly, he proved to have severe OCD. I subsequently discovered that this had been a problem in his line but disregarded because the showing and winning and getting stud fees had been given priority over the more important issue of health. Similarly with a terrible eye problem in my breed . Advice given not to breed from affected dogs and their near relatives has been pretty well disregarded. I guess we all have to defend our corners but I respect those who feel passionate about their breed and who truly wish to improve that breed. I had excellent mentors when I started breeding and feel this is how it should be for all.

> Why should we feel second rate just because we choose not to show ?

I do feel that, without showing or working your dogs, there's a danger of becoming slightly blinded to our own dogs' faults; that which we see every day becomes the 'norm'.

I agree with you Jeangenie . But I really do try to be critical /objective . My New Year resolution , amongst others, to is attend a few local shows . I have a lovely girl bred by me who is exceeding all expectations in every way. I know that in Europe it is common practice to take a dog to a show to be assessed by a judge. Does this system operate here ? To be truthful, I am very shy of situations where I am a focus of attention. Parading in the ring would be purgatory for me.

Jan Bending...it's a common worry for shy exhibitors to think that people will be looking at YOU. In reality they are looking at your dog. I can hardly ever describe a new exhibitor but I can give a pretty good critique of their dog.

I think you need a bench mark for how well your dog fits the standard. Showing, even just a few outings, will get your eye in as to where your dogs stand in comparison.

Many people scoff at breed standards yet want a recognisable breed. Without checks and balances an approximation of a breed starts to form.
'Staffies' are a good example of this, so many shapes, sizes and types...no two like.
I saw a 'real' SBT yesterday on our common and was quite jolted by how much the local 'Stafftype" have drifted from it.

Ironic really that the KCs own standards have NO bearing on the requirements for their OWN scheme.

Thank you Toolz. Guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet ! I've always shied away from the public eye , as it were. I was very academic at school and beyond but had the ability to completely 'fluff' any practical task if I felt eyes were upon me and in judgement. Just writing this brings back terrible memories of occasions at school. I'm blushing.

I have social anxiety disorder, and I do get very nervous before going in the show ring. But once I'm in there, I am totally focused on my dog and nothing (and nobody) else matters. I do have to remind myself to keep an eye on the judge though!
Despite the nerves I do really enjoy my days out at shows, as do the dogs :)

At Bath show last year a husband and wife were showing a puppy for the first time.
Wife handled the puppy.....held the lead really......and hubby took photos. He walked in the ring while the puppy was being examined by the judge....took lots of photos, stopped the judge, set up a smiley posed photo of pup on table with  wife and judge and proceeded to follow wife/pup duo around her triangle clicking away.

Now I can describe the little pup but not the people :-)

Jan, like you I hate to be 'on show' or even noticed publicly.

When I was little, my mum would threaten me with 'people are looking at you'        You can imagine how that's turned out.  At school, I found it torture to have to take a turn in reading aloud.

Any exam of any sort was torture to the point of not being able to remember my name, because all exams are invigilated and you are being watched!  My driving tests were a complete nightmare, I've no idea how I passed.

And so when my pup's breeder asked if I'd show her, as he thought she was a bit good, I agreed on the promise he'd go in the ring with her.   Not so.     I don't know how I did it, but I didn't want to let the breeder down and he was really encouraging.

About six local breeders had turned up and also encouraged me, only to collapse laughing as my pup 'tiggered' her way around the ring.   DD kept shouting at me 'loose lead mum' from the ringside.  It was a complete farce, I was mortified.   Even the judge was laughing.  But it turned out they were laughing at pup, not me.  They all agreed they couldn't have done better with my little lunatic :-)    and everyone was so helpful and kind to a newby :-)   She got placed !!  and although it was a trial for me, I was hooked.   Some say we arrived with a bang :-D    I made some wonderful friends that day :-)

It does get better.    I won't say I'm never nervous in the ring any more, but I don't feel terrified any more.   And now there are other newbies to encourage and help, so I tend to concentrate on that ;-)

Give it a go.  You'll be glad you did,  just don't be afraid to approach people and let them know you are new to it  :-)   The stewards  are always helpful with newbies  :-)   All those highly experienced show-goers were new to the game once.

Thank you Dill !  And all !

Feel really encouraged. So much so that I have entered little Willow in a show this month. Husband moaning about early start on a Sunday but so be it !

I think Sheila Atter's piece in Dog World this week finally really explained what my real objections are (I could swallow the cost, grudgingly be standardised into what paperwork I use, and certainly happy to be inspected, though will feel it an intrusion fi they start photographing things like our car, (might have to clean it)!!).
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/106867

Quote: "........Those of us who joined the scheme in response to the plea that while we might not need the ABS, the ABS needed us, are totally disillusioned. We have given the ABS its credibility. Now we see our experience count for nothing and are instead lumped with Competent Roofers, Pavement Testing Services and Ready Mixed Concrete which all have similar UKAS accreditation. While we thought that the ABS was a means of showing our commitment to the highest possible standards - using our experience to breed quality puppies, taking our time to choose lifelong homes, deciding when to vaccinate - we now know that it is all about following a formula: issuing guides on grooming, nutrition, breed traits, rather than taking the time to demonstrate how to groom, being on the end of the phone to discuss feeding problems, and actually having chatted at length about the breed's foibles way before agreeing to add people to our waiting list.
  This, not the price rise or the increase in inspections, is why so many are disillusioned with the ABS. There is a very fundamental difference in expectation between the users of the scheme and the scheme itself. The KC may be proud of its UKAS accreditation, but cannot be surprised if the hobby breeder now walks away from a scheme that holds nothing for them......"

There was a post earlier where they said the RBA seemed positive at the visit yet the report coming back was different. It is to be noted that clerical staff at the KC do the actual "marking" etc and send out the comments not the RBA. It can be the case that the inspector completely disagrees with the KC on issues but does not have the final word. This works both ways. As I said before I would consider a hands on grooming session to be what a buyer wants but the KC failed on lack of written paperwork. Likewise I would argue that lack of quality/affix etc etc was not a good thing yet the KC disagreed.
Has everyone seen Sheila Atter's column in Dogs world this week? If not worth a read
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/106867
she seems to put perfectly the point I was trying to make before re the process being the important part of the process (i.e paperwork) and not the final result (i.e puppy).

Good grief Summer, look above we virtually posted at the same time.

Have fun! Don't worry if she or you do something daft, we've all been there, and you're far more likely to meet helpful, friendly people (as long as you don't try to chat when they're putting the final touches to their dog before going in the ring!) then anyone who sneers. I still remember my first few shows, made a complete fool of myself, but nobody made fun of me for it, and now if I do something silly I just laugh at myself! One of the funniest times I remember was trying to show my friend's dog, she trotted quite nicely in one direction, but as soon as we turned round she just tried to make a dive for her mum, who tried to get out of sight but it made no difference, both of us, the judge, and the people around were crying with laughter - but not making fun of me, just at the dog's antics! :-D What area are you in? There's bound to be someone on here who'll be at the show!

you know what they say brainless...........great minds and all that.....!!!!

Reply to Lucydogs. The show is near Bognor Regis. I'll have to drive myself as husband tells me he is on duty that day. A bit worried, therefore, as my car is an ancient one and does not do snow/ice. Also worried that she could possibly come into season -she's nine months old and hasn't had one yet. Nevertheless, am hopeful that all will be well.
I'm really good at making a fool of myself -nearly ruined Clemmie's chances in gundog tests -slipped in the mud while taking dummy from her . Examiner was heard to say  -super dog, pity about the handler.  Driving tests -three fails- were a nightmare  of nerves -I could drive perfectly well but having that judgemental presence with me was too much. Piano exams I managed but never played as I could and made a complete fool of myself in a couple of music festivals and attempts to accompany my kids when they performed were a disaster. Yes, I had a very critical mother who was always telling me that everyone was looking at me ( negatively of course ). If anyone on the forum is around on the 26th please help !

>super dog, pity about the handler

:-D

I heard that so many times, about myself and others LOL   That's what happens when you're a newby :-D   But you learn, you improve and suddenly it all gets better and you're not the newby anymore ;-D

One thing about making a fool of yourself as a newcomer, you'll make friends fast :-D 

If I lived near BR, I'd come, but it's quite a hike from S. Wales sadly :(

If your bitch comes into season, book her into another open show immediately, then go without her, just to see how it all works.  Most open showers are really friendly when they aren't waiting to go in the ring.  You'll also find show shedules for fairly local shows there, so it's worth a look :-D

Other end of the country to me alas, I'm in Suffolk! But I'm sure there'll be someone from here, and if not anyone should be happy to help, just don't be afraid to say it's your first show, then they won't expect you to be a practised hand. I've had a fair few critiques along the lines of 'nice dog shame about the handler' lol, I'm sure you will be fine!

Tell us all WHO came to do this assesment please.

Thank you Dill and Lucydogs. Now have to hunt out the show leads I bought a couple of years ago -think I may have given them away.
Returning to inspection theme, can anyone tell me why washingup bowls were deemed unacceptable by inspection team ?

I was part of the abs scheme from the year it started until now.  I resigned this year.  I joined initially as I thought great a scheme that recognises that I do the health test, provide puppy sheets, packs, and always willing to provide support how wonderful.  But since then its become a scheme that sells puppies for the big breeders. The criteria now required is that of a kennel not a hobby breeder having the odd litter just to keep there line and have a new show puppy.

That is worrying because surely that is what most people are. If you are suggesting they will fail people falling quite obviously in the small hobby show breeder category then they would not have many members fitting the bill in the long term. I spoke to Bill Lambert who agreed that many people have not yet been visited at all. Surely that should be the priority before visiting people who have already had an apparently inspection.

Thing is I dont use my dog for stud, only breed one litter every two years sometimes more so where does inspections and membership fees become a necessity? Has anyone actually read the new rules and regulations for the abs breeder its the same as a licensed breeder so in reality you might as well be one. All this extra cost for one litter? As if rising health test costs, stud fees, vet fees, cost of food and equipment werent enough your now expected to pay higher fees to the abs. Now tell me what exactly does the cross breed or designer bred pay per litter? No abs, No health tests, no registration fee, SO lets fet this straight we pay to do it right and they dont to do it wrong. Hmmmmm

Washing up bowls?? Yikes, I never use those, just rinse the bowls (dry food so not much to rinse) and leave upside till next food time!

I've just checked what my local council's rules are for needing a breeding licence. It states that someone who owns more than 2 bitches that are bred from needs licencing. Interestingly I looked at a neighbouring borough and their rule is you need a license if you breed more than 5 litters a year. Perhaps if people haven't checked yet they should,  as the difference in rules has surprised me!

I only have one breeding bitch although have had 2 possible at one time and only ever once had 2 litters in a year which was when I kept half sisters from one of my girls so they were born just over a year apart and once had a litter one after the other because I could not be sure that the one had taken and was looking for a bitch to show which is now my youngest, once again my only breeding potential as although I have the others they are now 8 and 9.
I doubt many hobby breeders would fall into the category of having 5 litters a year and more than 2 breeding bitches.

>I doubt many hobby breeders would fall into the category of having 5 litters a year and more than 2 breeding bitches.

It depends what they classify as breeding bitches.

to me a bitch is not a breeding bitch until she had been bred from, or at the very least is old enough to be bred from ethically (two years in my breed).

unfortunately the definition of a breeding bitch for powers that be and legislation tends to be any bitch capable of being bred from over 6 months of age.

In that case I do own more than two breeding bitches, as I have three enti4re bitches, the youngest will not be bred from until next year, and the oldest of which I may not want to spay, and may consider another litter, so even by my won definition I may still have three.

Yet on average I breed a litter a year or very rarely two (like the previous poster I too kept half sisters that are only 17 months apart in age).

Now a BYB could have two bitches that they mate each season, making 4 litters and not come under the radar.

For me it has to be the number of litters that determine commercial status not number of entire animals, especially as some people do not spay their bitches.

I was doing some research trying to find out information that potential puppy owners might be finding.  I was quite horrified to find the following advice on the APDT website on choosing a puppy:

The parents of the pups should be at least 12 months of age when the puppies were conceived. The larger breeds should be at least 2 years of age, as they take longer to grow and mature. Bitches should have had at least one season before being bred from. Bitches should not be bred from after the age of 8 years and  should not have produced more than 6 litters.

It's the 6 litters bit I'm referring to! Am emailing to say I hope it's a typo - no wonder the gp thinks breeders are in it for the money!

Yes it is beyond me that it might be acceptable for a bitch to have as many as 6 litters.

It is easy to have a lot of "breeding" bitches if animals are with you for life and you don't re-home. We prefer to have litters whilst the bitch is young then they are retired by 5. Assuming we didn't spay them they would be on the premises for hope fully 7 more years and certainly as far as the authorities are concerned would be classed as "breeding bitches" up until 8.
I also would not want to count a six month old bitch puppy that to all effects is being run on as part of my breeding programme but the LA does.
So you could be in the position of having 2 bitches you're running on and 3 oldies (maybe mother and grandmother) and technically require a licence yet have nothing to breed with!
I think it far fairer to need a license if you go over 4 litters.......there's no arguing with that. Otherwise I can see people never keeping an older bitch, not wanting them to count. I feel they would miss out terribly in not seeing the interaction of the generations but if that meant having a licence or not I suppose some people will.
I do believe 6 litters is standard for licensed kennels (although I could be wrong as I'm not one myself). It is at odds with what the KC will register but perfectly legal for the LA. I assume many a person had 4 KC reg and 2 not!

>It's the 6 litters bit I'm referring to! Am emailing to say I hope it's a typo

That's actually the national law (Breeding & Sale of Dogs Act); the KC limit is 4 litters per bitch.

I was still hoping for much better standards from an organisation I would like to recommend to puppy owners for training and advice! 6 litters in the lifetime of a bitch - shame on them!

My local council gives no guidance, just their licencing page states a Licence is needed under the breeding and Sale of Dogs Welfare act, so I assume they take their definition from that, the 5 litters or above route.

'Washing up bowls?? Yikes, I never use those, just rinse the bowls (dry food so not much to rinse) and leave upside till next food time!'

Still learning to copy and paste ! I've been using washing up bowls because we have 12 dogs pretty well free ranging in house and found that metal bowls didn't have capacity to satisfy thirst and were forever getting knocked over by humans and dogs alike. Just seemed a practical solution .

Another problem is that ticking all the boxes in the world does not demonstrate how well puppies are handled, socialised and looked after everyday until they go to their new homes. Also how new owners are dealt with during and at the time of handover. I think much more emphasis should be placed on new owners and how they feel they were handled and the confidence they have in their breeder.I fully appreciate that not everyone transfers ownership but when they do I think the KC should write to them asking more pertinent questions and with a stamped addressed envelope to send it back. In my last litter I pointed out the current questionnaire but it looks like you are pushing for votes and I was uncomfortable doing it.
I believe more responses are more likely to get back to the KC and would stay on file to be included as evidence.

I bought a new puppy on Saturday from an assured Breeder. I returned the questionnaire which covers all the points mentioned  in Hazenaide's comments.
I have to say how impressed I was with the kindly but professional attitude of the breeder. Lifelong advice offered, full documentation, information about feeding, walking, words to use, level of housetraining --all dealt with. To me this was the standard should aim for so that the accolade means something.
I have read this CB for years but rarely posted. As breeders don't be too critical,  but work with the KC to achieve a really good standard. I used the KC website as well as this one and the Breed Club to find the puppy. It was a bit like magic happening as my great Dane only died last week but I could not bear to be dogless for long. I had expected to wait for some months.
Louise

well i for one am not renewing my membership for ABS think the K/C  get enough from me