We've been having problems with Bramble at night, on and off, for a few weeks now. We will be taking him to the vet next week but I wondered if anyone had experienced similar or had any suggestions. Bramble is around 15 and, during the day, is behaving normally - he is happy, eats well, can still chase his ball and, although he likes to follow us around if we are at home, shows no sign of distress if we go out for a few hours. He sleeps in our large utility room at night and the door to the kitchen is open (the door to the garden is in the kitchen and the door to the hall in the utility room). I hear him pacing around during the night, go down to him and he is obviously agitated and panting. After letting him out into the garden I take him upstairs as he won't settle downstairs and he then sleeps very soundly on our bed until the morning. Some nights he has poo'd and wee'd as well in the kitchen - last night he had walked in it too :( There is no pattern - some night it's 12am, others 3am or 5am or 6am. I am convinced that he is not waking because he needs to poo/wee, but he is doing it because he is distressed. Some nights he sleeps right through and is still sound asleep at 7am. I did wonder whether the wind was bothering him (due to his deafness he has become frightened of our open fire in the last year or so). I don't want to take him upstairs routinely for several reasons, so would prefer to help him sleep better downstairs. I will start putting newspaper down to help with the clearing up (I have been having bouts of vertigo recently and so had to get OH out of bed to help clear up). I wonder whether a night light might help ? Any other ideas or experience of this ? Thanks

I've got a 15 year old with similar symptoms, but the vet cannot find any obvious reasons.

Could it be that Bramble is cold?  I wrap my girl up in her coat and and find she settles after that (she wakens random hours like Bramble and wanders the floor)  Your boy is maybe settling with the warmth from you upstairs when you take him to your bed.

Also could he be in a little pain?  Pain could be causing the panting, and if he is getting cold then he will feel the pain more. 

HTH

> Could it be that Bramble is cold?

I doubt it - he has a double coat and our heating is on 24/7 (underfloor heating so his bed must be lovely and warm :) ). I don't think he is in pain as there is no sign of that during the day. Thanks for your thoughts :)

Just wondered whether one of these thundershirts might help ????

Bramble sounds almost identical to my old Beattie was similar at the same age; in the absence of any physical symptoms my vet and I decided it must be a form of dementia. She would blunder about in the dark and get herself stuck in corners when she couldn't work out how to reverse. She would often poo without realising as she moved, and of course this often got trodden in and spread around. We put her on Vivitonin, which is supposed to help increase the blood flow to the brain, and it certainly seemed to slow down her decline, so that would be worth a try.

A thundershirt would certainly do no harm.

To be honest pretty much all old dogs I have had have acted in a similar way and I found the only way is to keep them in the bedroom with you. Even ones that have spent years and years sleeping away from you at night.

> I found the only way is to keep them in the bedroom with you

We don't want to do this if we can avoid it as we are concerned about him eventually becoming incontinent. Our bedroom is upstairs and Bramble (with stiff hips) finds getting down the stairs difficult, so getting him down and into the garden in a rush would be a problem. We have just put a new oak floor in our bedroom. This is a 'floating' floor - it is fixed onto the joists - so if he had an accident on the floor, the wee would go between the boards onto the underfloor pipes and insulation below with no means of cleaning there without ripping the floor up. For us, this is not acceptable. At the moment we haven't had any accidents taking him upstairs but this may not always be the case. I am also concerned about the mattress on our bed too. He won't sleep in his bed on the floor - only on the bed with us :) This is because, for years, the only time he comes upstairs is in the morning when he has a cuddle on the bed while we drink our tea :)

> We put her on Vivitonin, which is supposed to help increase the blood flow to the brain

Thanks, JG - we will see what the vet suggests. I will ask him about the Vivitonin if he doesn't ! :) :) OH and I think that it is the start of dementia. He has always been a clingy dog. He drinks a lot when he is stressed too (we had all the tests done 2 years ago, but concluded it was stress). Hopefully we will find something to calm him at night :)

Daisy, I have found three things usually help with my oldies- as you said- a low light sometimes works, leaving a radio on low and some Bach's flower remedy at bedtime. I think sometimes as they get older, they imagine things at night!
I hope you find something to help him.

Daisy, if the vivitonin does not help it may be best to eventually just put a large/medium crate up in your bedroom for the evenings with a plastic under sheet and a dog bed, no doubt he will continue to have accidents the older the gets and it would save your upstairs flooring from being ruined, as well as keeping him off your bed and hopefully give him a good nights sleep with no wandering. I know you are worried about rushing him down the stairs with his legs at this age, but if he does anything in the crate it is easy to clean up.

Or you may get away with just crating him on a night downstairs.

Although, dogs often sleep well just knowing you are in the room and hearing you breathing, our elderly dogs often have the same needs as our puppies ;-) it may be the best thing to do for him as well as keeping him safe at night. :-)

> a low light sometimes works, leaving a radio on low and some Bach's flower remedy at bedtime.

Thanks - we will try the light and a radio on tonight. Haven't got any Rescue Remedy, but will get some on Monday :)

Carrington

Thanks for the suggestion about the crate. We have a crate (Tara's old one) but Bramble has never been crated so I don't know how he would cope ?? Might be worth a try if other things fail. I really don't want him in the bedroom permanently. We also have wood flooring on the landing, hall and oak stairs. As we are continually doing renovations we haven't got around to putting carpet down on the stairs. The down side is that the stairs are slippery for an elderly dog - until a year ago he would be happily doing wheelies going down them :( I'm not happy about putting sheeting down on the landing/hall/stairs as (from experience of decorating) it can be dangerous even in daylight :( It's a long way from our bedroom to the kitchen door :( I really don't want to get into the position of considering PTS just because the flooring is getting soiled :( :( Sorry to sound so negative :(

You've re-floored your house too early should have waited a couple of years. :-D

I really don't want to get into the position of considering PTS just because the flooring is getting soiled   Sorry to sound so negative

I do understand, we often have to put up with these things with elderly dogs just as we do with pups, he probably would get used to a night-time crate it would make him feel safe and less confused if he is beginning with dementia. The other alternative is to sleep downstairs on and off until it is time to say goodbye..... we often do this if our dogs are ill so I guess you could just think of it in the same way.

Hope that the other alternatives given will work first though before contemplating mine. :-)

> You've re-floored your house too early should have waited a couple of years

LOL :) It was that or no floor at all - as it was 5/6 years ago. To have floors to walk on is luxury now :) :) :) It's taken OH and I a lot of hard work to get this far :) The kitchen/utility/garden room all have tiled floors which were planned to be dog friendly - just a pity that Bramble doesn't appreciate this :) :) :)

I would bring him in to the bedroom at night. This isn't unusual behaviour in old dogs, and if he settles at night knowing you are nearby great-- keep him nearby.

Sam is the same, some nights are disturbed yet others he is still asleep when I get up. He seems to just want a cuddle when he wakes us in the night, can be hard to be woken up just for a cuddle but if he needs one then he needs one! He has also become terrified of very strange things (his toy duck for example). Vet thinks it is dementia and I have just started him on some homoeopathic remedies but too early to say if it is helping yet. He also has stiffness in his joints and is now on Metacam which seems to be helping with the joints and he is settling a bit better as well. Sadly old age is taking its toll just as it does with some humans.

When I tried having my old girl in the bedroom a) she was the only one who got any sleep because her fidgeting and snoring kept us both awake and b) it was quite risky carrying her downstairs in the morning because she was too nervous to manage the stairs.

Poor old Bramble - and poor you, too Daisy!   It's not easy coming to terms with an elderly dog suffering from probable dementia ....been there too often, I'm afraid!

We found that DAP diffusers seemed to help - just kept them a bit calmer at night - and also kept a small light on in the room - and the radio (on a talk station rather than music) helped too.   At the time, we were experiencing this, there was very little medication recommended - "just one of those things, etc etc etc".  

Maybe a covered crate - with washable bedding - might help a bit - I wouldn't recommend crating upstairs as eventually you'll need to carry him downstairs, and Bramble's not a small dog, and like the rest of us, you and Roger aren't getting younger, and I'd now be worried about stumbling on stairs if you need to carry him downstairs.

> When I tried having my old girl in the bedroom a) she was the only one who got any sleep because her fidgeting and snoring kept us both awake and b) it was quite >risky carrying her downstairs in the morning because she was too nervous to manage the stairs.

Exactly :) Bramble doesn't snore nor fidget (unlike ~Tara who sounds like cross between a pig and a train), but he does insist on sleeping up against me which makes me very hot and also gives me little room to turn over :) :) If I can encourage him to lie at the foot of the bed I get a better nights sleep :) :) :)

> I wouldn't recommend crating upstairs as eventually you'll need to carry him downstairs, and Bramble's not a small dog, and like the rest of us, you and Roger aren't >getting younger, and I'd now be worried about stumbling on stairs if you need to carry him downstairs. .

I'm not good on stairs - I have to hold on the bannister even if I'm not carrying anything :)

> It's not easy coming to terms with an elderly dog suffering from probable dementia

It's not - especially when he is so well otherwise :( His happy face cheers us up tho' :)

You can get DAP collars as well - never used one but have seen them for sale at my vets'.

Bramble's behaviour sounds just like my old boy he was 15 when we had to let him go. It can be so stressful and worrying, when they can't settle.
My dog went doubly incontinent, just did not know he was doing it. The vet diagnosed dementia, he was then totally blind and his internal organs started to fail. It is a really hard situation but all you can do is keep them as comfortable as possible and regular check up at the vets to ensure they are not in pain.
You will need to prepare unfortunately for the inevitable as if he starts experiencing pain or his behaviour becomes unmanageable then you may have to let him go.
As my vet said to me, we all hope that are dogs will pass away peacefully in their sleep but unfortunately it does not always happen, and sometimes to avoid further suffering we have to make difficult decisions.
Not saying  Bramble is at that stage yet, and I hope he has a good long period of quality of life, but only you can decide when he has had enough.
Some very good suggestions have been made on how to manage him, hope you find one that will work for you. You could try making a thunder shirt out of an old t shirt or jumper and see if it helps.

Two things I would think of if a vet check brings nothing obvious to light... Aktivait, a treatment (food supplement) for dementia, to help with brain/nerve health. This has helped my old dog a lot both with being unsettled and with losing toilet control. He now doesn't pace aimlessly anymore, sleeps through the night again and can hold on without problems again. Then you might also want to think about Melatonin, the "sleep hormone" used to help with insomnia. Might help him settle too.

Thanks all for your support and suggestions :) Pleased to report that Bramble had a good night (radio, light and newspaper down). Hopefully this will continue, but too early to say whether it was just a one off - but fingers crossed :) I'm going to hold off going to the vet until we've had a few more nights :)

Really hope that it wasn't a one off situation :-)

Fingers and toes crossed! :)

> Really hope that it wasn't a one off situation :-)

Another good night - hopefully we have cracked it, although I appreciate that we are only on a downward slope :(

Great news long may it continue.

>

The downward slope can be a long, slight decline - let's hope that it is x

>  let's hope that it is

:) We hope so too :) Three nights in a row now, so hopefully we've got it cracked - fingers crossed :) He looks so sprightly in the mornings running after his ball :) It's just moments when he turns suddenly and falls over that he seems rather frail :( He's fine in a straight line - even jumped onto the sofa the other day :) Every day is a blessing :)

Just thought that I would let you know that Bramble has slept soundly through the night since we started leaving the light on. We stopped leaving the radio on and the newspaper hasn't been necessary. I'm so grateful to you all for your thoughts which helped so much :)

Good to know a simple measure has worked for him and I bet you are sleeping better too :)

Brilliant news :-)

> and I bet you are sleeping better too :-)

Much better ! Although it took about a week before I stopped waking during the night and listening for any noises downstairs :)