I've been thinking hard about getting a cocker spaniel, it would be a companion and a pet for myself and my wife, and not for show or any type of competition. I'm trying to decide between a show-type and a working-type dog. I'm an active person, I often cycle 60 or more miles on a fast road bike during the week, I play 4-6 hours of badminton most weeks, I'd be intending to put some of that energy into exercising the dog, and I work from home so I could keep the dog occupied and interact with it during the day. But on the other hand I don't want to find myself with an animal that wants more exercise than I can provide, and that makes me think it might be better to go for a "show-type" cocker. The thing is, and I don't want to offend anybody, I don't find the show cockers I have seen very appealing, with their low-set ears, domed heads and long hair.

So I suppose what I'm wondering is, do people breed show-type dogs that look a bit more like the working types? Or alternatively, do people breed working types that can be expected to have a bit less drive and energy than those bred for a full days work in the field, or for agility?

You can no doubt find a breeder that breeds less  typy show lines or less active working dogs, but it won't be a GOOD breeder. After all, what would be their reason for breeding? It wouldn't be to produce good show dogs or good working dogs, so that only leaves the reason to make some money!

To me, it sounds like you are the sort of person that a working type dog could fit in with, as you do sound very active. One other thought though -have you thought about other breeds of Spaniel? Maybe there is another breed from show lines where the looks appeal more to you?

Well Goldmali, I understand what you're saying, but maybe this breeder we are imagining breeds less showy show type dogs to meet a demand from people like me? People who want a pet and a companion, and not a show or a working dog?

Let's say this imaginary breeder isn't a good breeder by some standards, meaning that they are not breeding to either the working or the show specification, but just to produce less extreme pet dogs. What I want to know is where can I find them, where can I look? I can then make my own mind up about whether they are a good breeder by my own standards.

You could be making some rather expensive problems for yourself as there are a number of health issues with cocker spaniels. One in particular is the dog going blind. If you go for a show bred dog the breeders will be very careful to make sure the inherited diseases are eradicated from their lines. The 'showiness' might not appeal to you, but the health of the dog would. Have you looked at Welsh Springer Spaniels which are a bit more relaxed then there English cousins?

Tricky isn't it. The way a dog looks is a very important part of our reason for choosing them but when you have a breed with such a split between show and working type then you have to consider the quality of breeder too.

Ideally you want a puppy from health tested parents, and from a line of health tested dogs.  You want to go to a breeder who knows their breed and who will stick around to help with feeding advice, coat care questions, medical and behavioural information and general support.  On this forum we seem to get many owners who have been let down by breeders who just take the money and run, and those who seem unable to answer even the basic questions about diet, vaccinations and worming.

The trouble is, once you start putting these filters on your choice of puppy then you start to narrow down your choice of breeder.  You are more likely to find someone who offers this knowledge and expertise in the show world...  That said you may still find some variation in those show bred dogs so it may be worth going to a few shows for a closer look.  It also helps to have a chat with several breeders before making up your mind.  Alternatively start talking to working breeders about health testing and you may find someone who acknowledges how important it is.  Not all working bred dogs will have the drive to be successful in their field and working breeders will know how to spot this quite early on. 

There's always the show x worker.

Some not so ethical breeders do this mix, but like already said, health tests on both sire and dam are unlikely. Although there are more workers being tested now than previously.

The looks then may be somewhere in between both strains and so may energy levels, but only may be.

I have to say I wouldn't let you have a working pup of mine just because you like the look of it or would I let you have a show type because you don't!

My advice to you would be to look at other breeds.

This link to necessary health tests might be of use to you

http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/healthissues.htm

Well Goldmali, I understand what you're saying, but maybe this breeder we are imagining breeds less showy show type dogs to meet a demand from people like me? People who want a pet and a companion, and not a show or a working dog?

No -responsible breeders do not breed to a demand, they do not breed for the pet market, they breed for the good of the breed, to improve a breed, and usually for something to keep themselves. There will always be pet puppies available as not all pups can go to show homes or working homes, and not all will necessarily be good enough for either, but nobody responsible would ever DELIBERATELY breed for something not good enough for either. That's puppy farming or back yard breeding. Before I was showing myself, and decades before I was breeding, whenever I wanted a puppy as a pet I always located a really good and wellknown show breeder within the breed, to make sure I got a good quality puppy bred for all the right reasons, which does not include just making money. And that way I also got a breeder that would be knowledgeable and be able to help me out with any problems I may have with my pup in future, be it training, health or whatever. The people breeding for the pet market usually have little or no knowledge of what they are doing, all they want is money, and once you have handed your money over, they have no interest in hearing from you again. A responsible breeder often becomes a friend for life, and will always be there for you. 14 years ago I bought a pup of a breed new to me, I picked the current top breeder in the UK, even though back then I had NO intention of showing her and definitely not breeding -that all changed but that is by the by, and I am still in touch with the breeder at least every month and I still have questions for her today, and she has the answers and even after all these years are still happy to help. :)

Hmm. I've successfully raised two human children without having any need to go to an expert for advice about how to train, feed and exercise them. They now have university degrees, full time jobs and satisfactory relationships. I've recently read and understood several books about training, feeding and exercising dogs. To be honest, it doesn't seem anything like as challenging as dealing with humans. And when I look at the advice provided on dog breeders' websites or on forums like this, it often seems ill-founded, illogical, unclear, over-emotional.

Has breeding to a standard really improved the breed in the case of show cockers? They seem to have been bred for looks, and they look like babies. Is that an improvement?

>Has breeding to a standard really improved the breed in the case of show cockers? They seem to have been bred for looks, and they look like babies.

Apart from an increase in the amount of coat, I can't see a great deal of difference in the appearance of the show cocker of today and those of the 1950s. They're also vastly more consistent in size, demeanour and temperament than the working cocker. If you're looking for an active pet cocker then you're far better going for a show type. If you want a really high-octane sporting cocker then go for a working cocker.

> I've been thinking hard about getting a cocker spaniel, it would be a companion and a pet for myself and my wife, and not for show or any type of competition. I'm trying to decide between a show-type and a working-type dog. I'm an active person, I often cycle 60 or more miles on a fast road bike during the week, I play 4-6 hours of badminton most weeks, I'd be intending to put some of that energy into exercising the dog, and I work from home so I could keep the dog occupied and interact with it during the day. But on the other hand I don't want to find myself with an animal that wants more exercise than I can provide, and that makes me think it might be better to go for a "show-type" cocker. The thing is, and I don't want to offend anybody, I don't find the show cockers I have seen very appealing, with their low-set ears, domed heads and long hair.

So what is it that is making you consider a Cocker Spaniel since you don't like the look of a show-type Cocker and you are unsure whether you could meet the needs of a Working Cocker? Do you have friends or family who own a Cocker and have got to like the breed through them or are you thinking (like many) about the breed based on what you read on the internet? I know you said you don't like the look of show-type Cockers but the appearance of show type dogs varies a lot (as does that of working bred dogs too for that matter) - they don't all have enormously long ears and heavy coats, nor do they look like babies (well not like any babies I've ever seen anyway LOL!) Show type dogs are also busy, active little dogs and can certainly take as much exercise as you can throw at them (once mature) but are also happy to just be in your company if a long walk is not on offer. Maybe it would be a good idea to spend some time with dogs and owners (both types) before making up your mind rather than trying to find a breeder who will almost certainly not be a good one to get what you think would be your ideal dog (but may not be in the end as even with mixed show/working puppies, it is a lottery as to the genes each pup will inherit, some could look more show like but have the drive of a working bred dog, for example).

> And when I look at the advice provided on dog breeders' websites or on forums like this, it often seems ill-founded, illogical, unclear, over-emotional.

and yet you're still asking here for advice...?

It's down to personal choice - ask the questions, get a range of opinions then make your own decisions BUT do please be aware that this is a breed with some health issues and to buy from a breeder that doesn't take that into consideration is frankly a bit daft.

You may never need advice on your puppy but if you want to double check the correct weights if your pup doesn't seem to be gaining, or you need to know whether sickness after worming is something to be alarmed about, or you want to find out if those spots inside your dogs ears are normal then it helps to buy from a breeder who will be there to help.  It's a bit like buying something from the security of an established shop rather than a roadside trader who will fold up his stall just as soon as you've left.  Most insurance companies will not cover any health problems which arise within the first 14 days of your ownership - some breeders don't care and will pass a puppy on knowing full well that there is a problem and then not be around to help or willing to take the pup back.

With regard to your choice of breed - that's completely up to you.  There's not much point getting into a debate about show v's working if your mind is already made up but do have a look at some of the other spaniel breeds if you don't want as much of a split between types or perhaps another gundog with a similar coat such as a Large Munsterlander.  Discover Dogs at Crufts in March might be a good place to start :)

Hmm. I've successfully raised two human children without having any need to go to an expert for advice about how to train, feed and exercise them. They now have university degrees, full time jobs and satisfactory relationships. I've recently read and understood several books about training, feeding and exercising dogs. To be honest, it doesn't seem anything like as challenging as dealing with humans. And when I look at the advice provided on dog breeders' websites or on forums like this, it often seems ill-founded, illogical, unclear, over-emotional.

Has breeding to a standard really improved the breed in the case of show cockers? They seem to have been bred for looks, and they look like babies. Is that an improvement?

So you've never once had any help raising your children from their granparents?

Have you looked at Welsh springer Spaniels, sensible ear size, and coat, and dual purpose, not so frenetic as English springers, but still good all round workers. 

I have looked after several over the years for weeks at a time and are probably one of the few spaniels I could live with.

To be honest, it doesn't seem anything like as challenging as dealing with humans.

Depends on what your natural qualities are, I suppose. Some people are naturals when it comes to child rearing, others when it comes to training dogs. We seldom know what we are capable of before we're in that situation though. The huge difference with children is that they learn to talk and they actually understand when you talk to them, as opposed to just recognising the odd word! Then there is the fact that different breeds of dogs act differently and cannot be trained in the same way.

Has breeding to a standard really improved the breed in the case of show cockers? They seem to have been bred for looks, and they look like babies. Is that an improvement?

You must have had some rather odd looking children. Can't say any of mine ever looked like Cocker Spaniels as babies! :) Showdogs cannot get by on looks alone, they have to have the right looks, the right temperament and good health, or they stand no chance in the showring. Looks alone does not make a breed.

Hmm. I've successfully raised two human children without having any need to go to an expert for advice about how to train, feed and exercise them. They now have university degrees, full time jobs and satisfactory relationships. I've recently read and understood several books about training, feeding and exercising dogs. To be honest, it doesn't seem anything like as challenging as dealing with humans. And when I look at the advice provided on dog breeders' websites or on forums like this, it often seems ill-founded, illogical, unclear, over-emotional.

Has breeding to a standard really improved the breed in the case of show cockers? They seem to have been bred for looks, and they look like babies. Is that an improvement?

So you home educated them rather than sent them to school?   

My aunt an uncle had the same attitude, couldn't understand why my two children were such hard work.  Especially since their daughter's children were easy as well.   Now they have grandchildren from two generations of 'easy' children and don't know what's hit them!     Sometimes you just get lucky, it isn't always about good or bad parenting     ;-)

It's the same with dogs, as experienced trainers will tell you.   Reading the books about training is all very well, but firstly, the dogs don't read the books, and don't speak english.   And secondly, the dogs aren't all alike.   Some are much more work than others even in the same breed or litter.   

I've trained many dogs, to a very high standard.   But my first Bedlington bitch had a mind of her own.   Bright as a button, it wasn't that she wouldn't or couldn't learn, she just thought she knew better than me.    She had no wish to please anyone but herself and there was no bribing or forcing her either.    Independent minded to her last breath.    Her daughters are nothing like, and are very easy going and biddable.

What is it about the Cocker Spaniel that you do like?   Since you aren't keen on the show or working Cocker's attributes?    It may be that you would be happier with another breed and them with you ;-)

Hi
I understand what you mean about the looks of the showtype and the energy of the worker.  TBH, I think you sound perfect for a working line spaniel.  I have owned both show type and worker and also a showxworker(best out the lot!).  I don't show but enjoy the companionship of the cockers.
The thing you need to understand is, the showtype are trimmed to look that way.  My showtype cocker is trimmed in a pet style with short hair on her ears and face and a very short skirt/feathers.  I couldn't cope with a really hairy dog as she would be forever wet!  I like my dogs manageable.
The workers are very much more manageable in the coat department.  I don't find them unreasonable in the exercise department either.  Some good training and a run in the park keeps most satisfied and mine are very calm in the house if I do this.
Have you looked at springers?  Sounds more what you are wanting.  We have a fabulous working springer and before owning her, I thought they were all crazy but they just enjoy life!
Their are loads of sites online where you can find what you are looking for.  It's not worth argueing if you are sure of what you want, why seek the opinions of others.
Only thing I would not compromise on would be health testing.  Both parents should be health tested for PRA and hips at least.
Best of luck

Don't really know why you have asked you have been given good advice and yet you have very different opinions so instead of asking advice why not just go to a byb and buy one

Oh that's a bit mean, santorna, and not particularly helpful.
Pet breeders can breed good, healthy pups like everyone else if they do it properly(health testing).  Not everyone who doesn't show are backyard breeders.
For example - A member of my family has recent brought home a cockapoo puppy.  Parents fully health tested.  Show cocker x min poodle.  Whelped and reared properly, vet checked, etc.  Mum was viewed in the home with the pups who were reared in the lounge.  Clean, healthy, happy pups.  Just because you and I wouldn't have bought this 'breed'(lol) or even viewed the litter doesn't mean they are not for others.  Perfect little dog for this family! :)

For example - A member of my family has recent brought home a cockapoo puppy.  Parents fully health tested.  Show cocker x min poodle.  Whelped and reared properly, vet checked, etc.

But bred for no other reason than to make money or for "fun". So that very much equals back yard breeder in my book!

Looks like dogbert has been scarred off with the helpful post given by some.

We, as breeders, try to do our utmost to help with puppy buyers & offer our lengthy knowledge...learnt sometimes by bitter experience. I always say I am there to offer any help or answer any questions, at any stage of the dogs life, this can be for 14 or more years. Some things are just not in books or it doesnt hurt to have a 2nd opinion by those who may have experienced some things many times over.

But bred for no other reason than to make money or for "fun". So that very much equals back yard breeder in my book!

Exactly my definition of a backyard breeder too, as opposed to those who produce quantities of puppies, who, to me, are puppy farmers.  I would not support or excuse either.  :(

I don't think harsh at all he asked the question people have good advice and he already had made his mind up what he wanted so wasn't interested in hearing any advice that deviated from his opinion. Also whilst your family member got a new puppy that suits there lifestyle then great but a cross bred at a ridiculous price to further what someone's bank balance? Sorry not my idea of a good breeder but I'm sure many will disagree

I don't think harsh at all he asked the question people have good advice and he already had made his mind up what he wanted so wasn't interested in hearing any advice that deviated from his opinion. Also whilst your family member got a new puppy that suits there lifestyle then great but a cross bred at a ridiculous price to further what someone's bank balance? Sorry not my idea of a good breeder but I'm sure many will disagree

Sorry for all posts it wasn't going through my end when I tried didn't realise it had gone through lots of time or I would if deleted :-)