Hi

I have a 5 month old Lab / Doberman cross.  One vet has suggested that I could have her spayed before she has her first season and another vet hinted that if it was her dog she would let her have a season first.  This is my first puppy so any advice on this will be greatly received. Thank you.

There are a lot of good reasons for not spaying a large breed bitch until at the very least 2 years of age and personally I would never consider it. I once had one (also a crossbreed) spayed at 5 months of age and I've regretted it ever since. She was never allowed to grow up, other bitches hate her as they cannot work out what she is, puppy or adult -she's not a mature bitch as she never was allowed to mature, and she has never grown up and gained proper adult confidence etc. She's almost 12 years old now. Vets say that it prevents mammary tumours to spay before the first season, but my Matilda has still got a mammary tumour.

Neutering early can cause problems with growth, urinary incontinence in bitches, and a variety of other health problems, as well as behaviour problems.

I always recommend having at least one season & preferably 2 before spaying for reasons which have already been mentioned.
Some vets just want your money & it doesnt matter to them if incontinence happens as they will get even more money then(as you will no doubt try to give some form of tablets)!!

It is slightly different for some/most of us who show. I wait until I either have a litter or decide not to have a litter from a bitch, so they are 4 or more before being spayed.

I would definitely wait until at least after the first season, and possibly after the second. The Guide Dog bitches are never spayed before their first season; if there was a problem with this, or a benefit to spaying earlier, they'd have changed their protocol like a shot.

Also I know a lot of Dobermans and nearly all the bitches I know develop urinary incontinence after spaying, but to a lesser degree if done when fully mature and also if their weight is kept optimum (lean).

Thank you all for your posts - my gut feeling was to wait until after her first season, but after reading your advice I may well wait until after her second.  Thank you.

The advantage to waiting until after second season, it gives you some idea where midway between seasons is likely to be. 

Some bitches having short cycles and others long, anything from 5 - 10 month intervals being quite usual.

Wait until she has finished growing, both physically and mentally then have another look at your options.  I once had a boy neutered at 11 months (a rescue and I thought it was compulsory!) and I've recently had a closer look at two girls that were spayed very early.  I can see no benefits for the dogs to be done so young, the negative affect on their development and coat is blindingly obvious.  It's one thing to spay a mongrel or a crossbreed when you don't necessarily know what your dog would grow into but if you compare litter mates from a pure bred dog you'd really see the differences and would probably think again purely on that basis.

I do wish vets wouldn't be so quick to suggest it and breeders really must take a pro active role to ensure that puppy buyers have as much information as they can give when they agree to sell them a puppy. 

Well done you for asking first :)

> I do wish vets wouldn't be so quick to suggest it and breeders really must take a pro active role to ensure that puppy buyers have as much information as they can give when they agree to sell them a puppy.

The trouble is they vets make it sound like its really urgent & needs to be done NOW. Never mind that it isnt as urgent & waiting to do FULL research before deciding.

I have just had a similar thing with some of my recent litter buyers, only with males. The vets persuaded at least 2 of my owners, giving them the scare storys & it must be done quick. I have always said that I am here for any questions but neither of them asked me for my opinion..one cant make them ask, can one?! I am so disappointed that I breed for entire males & this happens. It really makes me think what is the point in trying to breed entire males..well breed full stop. I dont have a problem with spaying, infact I prefer they do(at the right time).

My vet has stopped trying to push me on this issue.  We have to agree to differ.  Love the vet I use, and can rely on 24hr care for my precious dogs, and as they are a large hospital they have experts in each field.  I do know that they find it unusual to spay "older" bitches.  My toy breed is usually left until 4 years of age.  I just don't get them spayed until I am ready, and they no longer ask me about neutering either sex.  Your money, your choice.  :-)

Same with my own vets..been with them for 37 years this year.. they never say anything as they know we do it our way :)

Maybe some articles here will help with your decision.

This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers    Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels   * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%20of%20Interest/new_views_on_neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Session%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control * www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_Health/Superlorin_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..?  -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/dog_talk_the_radio_show/episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/artikler/art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu+

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-english/castration-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/Gosling/reprints/AABS05DogPersonalityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet -  the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration - What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1123732;hl=castrate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? - Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs
Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD  10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-behavior-arousal-aggression-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS        March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/effects_of_neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O'Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993  See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001   American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/091201OvarianResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/OvaryExposureLongevityStudyfromAgingCellJournalbyDavidJWatersetalDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity:  lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/male-dog-neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online:  Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/dog-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online:  Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O'Meara  Pet Informed:  http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/index.html

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(08)00114-7/abstract
Breed differences in canine aggression 1, Dec. 2008
Deborah L. Duffy, Yuying Hsub, James A. Serpella

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman, Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters

http://www.stbernardhealth.co.uk/pyometrainthebitch.htm
Pyometra in the Bitch
Jenny King

http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/multimedia/podcasts/early-spay-and-neuter.html
Early Spay and Neuter 
Podcast with Dr. Benjamin Hart

http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/your-dogs-health/bone-cancer-in-dogs.html
Bone Cancer in Dogs
Dr. Jaime Modiano

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498
Golden Retriever Study Suggests Neutering Affects Dog Health
UC Davis, News and Information.  Media Contacts:  Benjamin Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine,  (530) 752-1555, blhart@ucdavis.edu;  Pat Bailey, UC Davis News Service,  (530) 752-9843, pjbailey@ucdavis.edu

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
Gretel Torres de la Riva, Benjamin L. Hart ,XThomas B. Farver, Anita M. Oberbauer, Locksley L. McV. Messam, Neil Willits, Lynette A. Hart

http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/ovary-sparing-spay/
Ovary Sparing Spay
Parsemus Foundation works to advance innovative and neglected medical research.

http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf
Behavioral and Physical Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs(Canis familiaris)
Summary of findings detailed in a Masters thesis submitted to and accepted by Hunter College
by Parvene Farhoody in May, 2010.

http://www.theriogenology.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=59
Basis for Position on Mandatory Spay-Neuter in the Canine and Feline
American College of Theriogneologists, 2013,  http://www.therio.org/
Note:  The ACT and SFT oppose mandatory spay/neuter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY&feature=youtu.be
The Truth About Spaying and Neutering
Dr. Karen Becker,

Heavens - the looooong answer Here!

I can only, keeping it shorter, tell you I was read to have my Whippet spayed at around 6 months.  When I took her into my vet, I was surprised to be told that he'd recommend she have a season first, citing bone growth problems, and the risk of spay incontinence.   As all my Basset bitches were only spayed on retirement (apart from one who was spayed earlier, as she started cycling every 5 months, and didn't come up to my standards to be shown/bred from either) so I'd not known this before.   I reluctantly agreed, because I had a sick, entire Basset male at home at the time and he didn't need a bitch in season around, even in another part of the house (I lined up a good local boarding kennel for her when she came in).    However, with no sign of her coming in by 11 months, I took her back and asked him to go ahead.   He did.   She's now 5, and fine.   She may be rather taller than ideal however but that may be down to her bloodlines as much as being spayed before the first season.

If your vet advises not to do it yet, and you are SURE you can confine her through the 21+ days of her first season without her being caught, then perhaps it might be better to allow this to happen.  

Evidence has convinced me that the more seasons a bitch is allowed to have, the higher the possibility (note possibility) of the bitch developing mammary, uterine or ovarian cancer later on - again most of our bitches weren't spayed until they were over 5 years and we did have one why by 12 years of age, had developed mammary cancer.  Whether this was going to happen regardless, I don't know, and she was the only one.  Part of getting the spay over and done with rather than leaving mine cycling, was to avoid the need to confine for 21 days every 8 months (the interval mine cycled, apart from the one who started this every 5 months). 
ps   I don't do castration at under a year, if necessary at all - early castration can leave a male a 'silly puppy' for all his life.   I don't think this is the case with bitches?

MamaBas if you read my post you will see I have mentioned two of your points:

Evidence has convinced me that the more seasons a bitch is allowed to have, the higher the possibility (note possibility) of the bitch developing mammary, uterine or ovarian cancer later on

My bitch spayed at 5 months STILL developed a mammary tumour.

ps   I don't do castration at under a year, if necessary at all - early castration can leave a male a 'silly puppy' for all his life.   I don't think this is the case with bitches?

My bitch spayed at 5 months has still not grown up/matured and she is now almost 12 YEARS old.

interestingly the study http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665 that someone posted showed the incidence of mammary tumours is around 3% (of which just over 50% are not benign) other than in breeds that seem predisposed.

"Mammary gland neoplasms--Mammary gland
neoplasms are the most common tumors of female
dogs, with a reported incidence of 3.4%, .....
Mammary gland neoplasms
are the most common types of malignant tumors
in dogs.... Mean percentage of mammary gland tumors
in female dogs that are malignant is 50.9%....
Increasing age and breed are risk factors for development
of mammary gland neoplasms, with a mean
age at diagnosis of approximately 10 years in dogs and
cats.....
Breeds reported to be at increased risk for
developing mammary gland tumors include the Boxer,
Brittany, Cocker Spaniel, Dachshund, English Setter,
English Springer Spaniel, German Shepherd Dog, Maltese,
Miniature Poodle, Pointer, Toy Poodle, and Yorkshire
Terrier."

Goldmali   I did read your post.

My comments here are always based on my experiences.  Not to suggest they are 'right', but based on my experiences - which are limited to my main breed (40+ years with that) and now my secondary breed (just under 5 years).