Each of my dogs has it's own folder with all their documents, breeding (including all puppy and new owner data)health, show data in separate sections. 

So someone only need match up their tattoo and chip numbers with relevant folder, even if they don't know which dog is which, though they could try using their call name which is writ large on the spine of the ring binders!.

But surely it should be up to the individual how and what records they keep.

After all the kennel club keep what they consider relevant, and don't bother with things like informing owners that endorsements have been lifted from their dog, only telling the person that placed it, hardly efficient, and can cause all sorts of issues.

Some of the requirements for info for new owners such as training and socialisation is a bit excessive, surely that is the new owners responsibility and basic advice to seek training, book lists, or web sources should start people off on the right foot.

I also tend to tailor some additional material depending on type of owner, existing experienced owner of the breed, former owner, experienced dog owner, novice, families etc.  For example I will include an article about babies/children and dogs for young families.  Novice owners will get extra advice on socialisation.  All will get referred to good training info such as dogstardaily.

Grooming, is pretty self explanatory and I do a paragraph or two re tools.

I seem to have to buy a new printer, and certainly a wad of A4 and two sets of inks each litter, yet reading the advice it would seem it's still not enough.

I put the most important stuff short and sweet in the sales agreement, and keep it to two sides of A4, as it's the only document I can be sure they will read, as I have them do so before signing, this covers endorsements, return, feeding, need for training, worming, and keeping in touch.

Marianne I had a route of escape in mind, told and showed her but she wanted me to have a printed copy in a prominent place.

Ref your cut paste section..
How on earth can they enforce that?

Cheers tooolz I will print something out and stick it on the wall then!

No I don't think an awful lot is enforceable and a show can be put on for the day.

The fire escape route bit will be a bit of a puzzle for me!  I have 1 door only, but as I live alone not sure what use a printed notice is going to be?  A reminder to self where the only door to the house is or a forlorn hope that the dogs will become able to read and operate the door lock should an emergency occur?  Was inspected by Bill Lambert about 6 years ago, when I moved here and give the thumbs up, may not be so now :).

Inspector told me emergency services need to know what's inside and breeder needs to have a plan to get them out.

I would like to see the proof that this is required by the emergency services. If that was the case it would apply to anyone with a pet, be it 20 dogs or one parrot! Is anyone here a licensed kennel? I would like to know if a printed, pinned up evacuation plan is compulsory in order to have a license.
All this goes way and above what the scheme was set up for......to ensure that happy healthy puppies were being raised in sanitary conditions and that the dogs being bred with were being cared for properly,  and hopefully were health tested decent specimens of the breed. THAT'S what I signed up for at the outset of the scheme. Like many others I knew we exceeded what was expected and thought why not get recognition of this fact and encourage others to do the same.
I feel more and more that it is becoming very similar to a L.A inspection. A lot of tick boxes and paperwork.

So do you have to list all your animals, and if so WHERE? If there's a fire indoors surely a notice on a wall inside the property is no good. But I really do not want a list of my animals posted outside for thieves to see either. Not that I think thieves would get far as they'd have to get past the Malinois! But even so. Also don't want everyone calling at the house to see my numbers posted publicly!! Do they want my cats and my guinea pig listed as well?

I didn't have one, was suggested that I did one saying how many dogs need rescuing..but I did described my way out.

It didn't affect my report which, despite my VERY well cared for dogs, living in the lap of luxury and with every health test done ...was on hold until I provided.......wait for it.......an 'exercise requirements' handout.

I didn't need heart or MRI certification, I could have kept them out in the garage on straw, bred from them at 18 months....but woe betide I forget the handout!

If this were the case, wouldn't every family and household have to have a list of all family members posted on the walls for the firemen just in case?

Toolz

This is what makes a mockery of everything that good, responsible breeders are doing.  Talk about being 'sold down the river'

The KC ABS is just a pseudo council license or working toward one for commercial breeders...which is what it will become.

Quote from my assessment....
"Keep a register of dogs in an accessible place in case of accident and emergency.
Ideally this would include identification and registration details, a brief health record and any other relevant information"

It's inevitable that a generic inspection protocol must be followed .....from a singe litter owner up to mass producers.

"Staffing levels" and "temp control and lighting" are to encompass those who breed outdoors.

It's too generic and dumbed down for many of us. Wanting the 'many' to reach the 'minimum'...isn't really what suits us.
That's why I resigned this morning.

I've been reading this thread and others elsewhere with a sinking heart.
I am the person that buys a puppy for a pet, my advantage is that I am experienced dog owner and have had my breed for nearly thirty years. When I bought the current pup I checked out CD and the KC ABS listings and eventually found the breeders. As they were on the scheme I assumed they would be good and ethical breeders and as it happens, I wasn't disappointed. They have been fantastic, the dogs and puppies were very well looked after and I can't fault them, but it seems, I could have ended up buying from what amounts to a puppy farmer. Now I know to check for health tests, peruse pedigrees and check the ancestors, I also talked to other breeders and that is all down to my experience honed over the years.

So what if I was a first time puppy buyer, fairly innocent and not too sure what to do. The general advice given on websites is to go to KC, but it seems it is not going to be the best way anymore particularly as so many breeders are leaving. If anybody asks me now about where to go to for a puppy I will suggest they check out the breed clubs first. What a sad and sorry situation this is.

I've had a phone call today, my first inspection is next Tuesday at 3.30. I've been told by the inspector that he had.p to prove everything with evidence so even has to take photographs of the dog water bowls! I've also been advised that it would be good if I can provide photos of my set up from when my girl had her pups a year ago. All paperwork is in place and also got to show microchip documents as they also scan for chips. He was very nice on the phone so will let you know how it goes.

If anyone has anything they wish they had known beforehand, please let me know. :)

Alfieshmalfie did you request a visit then due to having pups due soon?

am I reading this correctly....are they going to scan all your dogs?
Before it was a cursory look at the dogs not checking each one against your register.
I can't see what that proves at all.

Wow, they are well prepared!  Be very interested to know what they're looking at in addition to the previous visits.  I've already had one and am waiting until my girl is confirmed in whelp before phoning them. I am still in 2 minds as to bother or not, how many potential puppy owners will read up on what is expected from the new system when all they want is a family pet.
Happy to let them scan my dogs but that will not tally with their records as several puppies have never been transferred into new owners details!

When I got the letter on Friday, it said if you were planning a litter or had one due, email them on the address on the letter I am waiting for my girl to come into season so I was expecting a mammoth wait and being last on the list because i've only bred one litter (and that was done through the ABS scheme) last year. However having sent the email Friday morning, I had a regional coordinator email me Saturday morning to say that my details had been passed to regional assessor and he rang at lunchtime today, coming next week!

He did say that yes he would be scanning my dogs. Considering I only have one girl under my kennel name as my other two dogs are neutered rescues I'm not sure if he will only scan my girl.

He also said the visit had to be in daylight so he could inspect the outside area ie my garden and as it was 'evidence based" then he would have to take a lot of photographs. He used the example of taking a picture of the water bowl to prove they had water.

No one has mentioned about fire escapes or documents by the door with details of all dogs. All i've been sent by the "official email confirming my visit" is a copy of the ABS application form showing what's expected and the list of the recommended health tests.

I have a rescue and he didn't scan her as she is not Kc registered but he did want to meet all dogs in the home to check they looked well cared for. If you don't already know it, check your local authority's info on who needs a dog licence. Regards the fire escape route, I explained that we have 3 exits and that we would wait at my dads house across the street, the emergency services say get out, stay out so I'm not sure how happy they would be if they knew the KC were expecting us to get all our dogs out (even though we probably would do) He took photos of dogs, beds, bowls, first aid kit, garden, cage in car, puppy room, dog freezer, dry food and took away all copies of contracts etc. He wanted the name and address of vet to see vaccination details (if you have them vaccinated) I can't think of anything else but if you have any specific questions then just ask.   

If you don't already know it, check your local authority's info on who needs a dog licence.

I see this as a grey area -any idea of how it is viewed? Some councils use the DEFRA rule of more than 4 litters a year needs a breeding license, others say: "Any premises where more than two bitches are kept for the purposes of breeding for sale". I never breed to sell, I breed for something to KEEP, but cannot logically keep an entire litter so therefore have to sell some. But that is not the purpose of a litter.

Is vaccination required then ?? I only do certain ones and keep them to an absolute minimum.
Aileen

>If you don't already know it, check your local authority's info on who needs a dog licence.
>I see this as a grey area -any idea of how it is viewed?

Each council is different but you only need to know what applies in your own area.  Our council webpage says "If you own 5 or more breeding bitches and they produce 5 or more litters per year OR your premises are used solely for the purpose of breeding dogs then you require a Licence issued under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. This Licence is only obtainable from your Local Authority." Nothing about whether or not the puppies are for sale.

Each council is different but you only need to know what applies in your own area.

Like I said, grey area. In fact a huge one. Doing some digging my council has the rule about more than 2 bitches kept for the purpose of breeding for sale. My council has a total of 12 licensed breeders. There are more assured breeders than that in one popular gundog breed alone within this council. If the KC fail them all then I would guess that hundreds will be failed on that, as how many people who show don't have at least 3 bitches that aren't spayed and may or may not be bred from? But again the PURPOSE of keeping those bitches is NOT to breed to sell!

Goldmali this is my LA info.... "Establishments used for the breeding of dogs are controlled by the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973.
You must obtain a licence from the council to keep a breeding establishment.
A breeding establishment means any premise where five or more litters are produced in any 12 month period."
As I've no intention on ever breeding that much I explained that I know what my LA regs are and that I currently have no need for a licence.

Trouble is, my council states: A breeding establishment means any premises where more than two bitches are kept for the purposes of breeding for sale.

Looks like my options are either stop breeding or move to a different council!

No not required, I explained that I no longer vaccinate my oldest after I nearly lost an elderly dog after a booster and he just wanted to see the documentation any that were.

>Looks like my options are either stop breeding or move to a different council!

Or get a breeding licence; then you're covered.

Or get a breeding licence; then you're covered.

Trouble is, then your address gets published on the internet listed as a commercial breeder and as such a puppy farmer! There certainly are anti puppy farming websites that simply do this, publish anyone with a license including full address.

hear hear to that!
I live in Wales and have nothing against getting a license at all except the fanatics out there will class me as a puppy farmer. It should be acceptable to be a licensed breeder of perhaps 1 breed which you actively show/ are on committees of clubs with  etc without it meaning you are a bad person. Every year I check...and as yet we still don't need one as we have never had that number of litters. In a breed commonly having litters of 1 -3 pups only,  5 litters does not mean many puppies!
For us in Wales we are waiting to see what the last consultation by the assembly produces. If they have their way we will all be licensed and if you only have the moderate amount of puppies with say 3 litters then  the license fee on top of the AB fee will come to a lot of money.

For us in Wales we are waiting to see what the last consultation by the assembly produces. If they have their way we will all be licensed and if you only have the moderate amount of puppies with say 3 litters then  the license fee on top of the AB fee will come to a lot of money.

And I bet that some people will then be tempted to breed more with litters just to sell. :(

I have one breed that has large litters and one that has small. It varies a lot as to how often I breed as it depends on circumstances such as age of the bitch. In recent years I have had one litter of large pups in 2010 (9 pups), one toy litter in 2011 (4 pups), nothing in 2012 at all, and one toy litter (3 pups) in 2013. In 2014 I have a large litter due, and I'd prefer to leave it at that, but I have a toy bitch who needs to be mated next year or she will be told old for a first litter, so the way things have worked out, I will have my first ever year of two litters.

I wouldn't say we were big time breeders but if for instance you have the dogs coming in 2 colour varieties and want to have a new puppy to take out then having 2 litters a year  isn't much really. I coloured, 1 not.
My son lives here and has his dogs too (same breed) so that can easily be 4 litters.
He pays his own AB fee his own kennel maintenance fee etc etc but for licensing reasons we are treated as 1.
This year we had a litter of 1 and a litter of 2 and a bigger litter of 6., most years are like that, when you take away what we keep (and we always do)....not enough puppies for the people waiting even .We have a breed that very often misses too, so it could be you mate 5 bitches and hope for 2 litters. That said it would be our luck for all 5 to catch and I would need a license as I doubt they would care that it was the first time ever we had done so!
It must be a lot easier to have a breed and if you want 1 litter you mate 1 bitch, 2 litters 2 bitches ours isn't like that.

I cancelled mine a long time ago it wasn't worth its money.people are fooled into thinking an assured breeder is best when really(when I was a member) it meant nothing!

I had my inspection in November 2012 and as I had nothing better to do over Xmas was browsing the KC website. I was surprised to see that only about 4 people in my breed had a tick to say inspected I was not one of them and immediately emailed the KC to ask why.
I then received this letter in the post. I have a bitch mated 2 weeks ago that I am hoping is in whelp.
There are less and less breeders of my breed and I have people waiting to hear whether my girl has taken. Fingers x'd on that.
Why would they want to visit me again when so many people are saying they have not been visited at all.
I don't need the scheme particularly and joined because I felt it was the right thing to do at the time. I think that notice should be given to people rather than announcing it at short notice when people have already possibly have a bitch in whelp.Then people will make their own decision based on facts they were aware of. I assumed as I already had a visit I would not need another for some while, I will await the outcome of my email.
I do agree, based on the summary report of my visit, that they are more concerned about what you have recorded and written down than about what you might tell them you do. The person who advises on coat verbally, this means nothing to the KC.  In fact I was actually left with the feeling that they wanted to sell more of the little puppy advice booklets whereas I was content with my own advice verbal and written and the booklet I get from Arden Grange which is quite comprehensive and comes with the puppy pack.
It is a tick box exercise in my view and does not make you a good or a bad breeder.

>I was surprised to see that only about 4 people in my breed had a tick to say inspected I was not one of them and immediately emailed the KC to ask why.

The tick is for people who have been inspected since the ABS became UKAS accredited.

So what does that mean for those inspected before that and as opposed to those never inspected at all?

So it means that when they get inspected and pass they'll get a tick too. :-)

None of the three breeders I know have been inspected this year have ticks (14 of our club members are listed as ABS, the majority of our breeders)  though about half a dozen of those so far are not planning to renew.

What I find interesting is the first ABS breeders in my breeds lists have been inspected up to the county number 14 out of 59......that's a quarter of registered ABS breeders.....only the first one has a tick. If it's correct they only tick after joining UKAS then all previous inspections account for nothing.... What a waste of time and money!

>all previous inspections account for nothing.... What a waste of time and money!

I'd disagree; we chose our most recent puppy from a breeder who we knew nothing about but they were on the ABS (and breed club) list, so being listed, even without a tick, was helpful to both of us.

>all previous inspections account for nothing.... What a waste of time and money

Not at all.. I have a 7week old litter at the moment, not listed on CD because all pups were spoken for before whelping.  On my website listed litter as being due on a specific date, all those enquiries, and I do mean ALL of them, commented on the fact that I was an ABS breeder.  It counts.. I did my best before being ABS and I will continue to do my best during (and possibly after lol)  but, finally it is getting through to the puppy buyer that ABS is the way to go

Ticks are pretty much irrelevent; when we get puppy enquiries at work I always send them to the ABS list for their breed.

I'm expecting a litter and have a LOT more really good enquiries than last time (last time I had a litter of this breed I kept 2 pups and gave 4 away for nothing to people I knew as I ended up with only 3 buyers), before I was a member. Likewise, I have noticed that my kitten buyers now mention the fact I'm a member of the GCCF breeder scheme as well, and that it made an impact on them. (The GCCF has no plans for home visits though, but I had to get my vet to vouch for me.)

Now I just hope I can get through it all -the local council rules worries me!

>all previous inspections account for nothing.... What a waste of time and money

I'm under the impression that even if you were inspected 2012 for example, you will need to be re inspected this year - if you have or intend to have a litter - to be awarded your UKAS certificate.

Is this not the case? Do all previous inspections "carry over"as it were?

> the local council rules worries me

what council rules?
eta, just realised you probably mean your councils 2 bitch limit, Is a council allowed to have a limit vastly different from DEFRAS 5 litter PA limit. It does seem unduly low.

All the puppy enquires I have had over Xmas and we are talking in excess of 50 as jap puppies are so few and far between not one has asked about being a abs breeder, I have told them I am not but do everything I should do, personally until all this is ironed out I am not interested, I mean heavens I/only know one Spitz who likes a bed so I'm not about to start buying them just so I get a tick.

My objections are none of the above.
Despite wanting to support the KC in their efforts to create a scheme, I feel I'm wasting my time... Four years now on a scheme which seems to only bring the highest number to the lowest acceptable standards. Not what I wanted at all.

In my breed, health is a hot issue. The ABS is completely without merit to those seeking to source a puppy or breeder which gives the best chance of avoiding heart break.

I cannot keep fielding phone calls from those believing that ....IN MY BREED the ABS will point them in the right direction.

I'm now hearing on another forum that the KC cannot guarantee that if you have a visit for example next week and have puppies due the week after, that the paperwork will not be completed in time for you to get your 'tick' when litter is registered!

I feel this has all been brought in too fast for many of us to be happy about it all.  Still deciding whether or not to leave the scheme...

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">If they visited a breeder who had dogs sleeping on concrete flooring without enough bed space and with one waterbowl between ten of them, we wouldn't want to see such a breeder pass, would we?

Well I'd fail as mine have one communal gallon waterfowl in the kitchen, and in summer would choose to sleep on the bare tiles or outside on the concrete.  At the moment despite 5 dog beds (oh dear there are 6 dogs!!!) they prefer the rubber backed mats to lie and sleep on.  When the ones who sleep out go to their beds in the kennel (4 beds and two crates on the benches, so room for 6), the old lady who stays in the kitchen is still most often sleeping on the doormat by the living room door rather than her choice of five beds.

>the KC cannot possibly vary the rules according to who they inspect

And yes you can't have everyone the same as we and our dogs are all different, as they say different strokes.  A much broader brush approach is needed when inspecting homes not kennels. 

As I said before would we allow 'health Visitors' to dictate detail of how we keep our new-borns????  Yet they too check that everything with new Mums and babies is fine.

Why does the breeder have to provide all this additional info, surely the new owner has a responsibility to educate themselves, there are plenty of resources available???? 

So surely the breeder pointing them in the right direction should be more than enough.  Buying a coated breed they can buy a book or video, most will opt for the groomer. Ditto training etc.

I know the more written info I have provided the less likely it is to be read, I know this from the questions I get by pone and email that they have not read what I have given them, which is why being available to puppy owners with on-going advice is so much more important.  Written detailed advice can be found elsewhere, be it Library books, book shops on-line resources or training clubs/workshops.

Yet suddenly the breeder is expected to give detailed written advice on just about everything.  I don't see the Kennel club doing this.  What about those without computers or printers?  I assume they are bad breeders then.

When I bought my foundation bitch from one of the breeds doyennes, I received
1).  a hand written pedigree,

2). one of the flimsy little registration documents issued by the KC back then, looked similar to a basic wageslip, about a third of an A4 piece of paper with green edging,

3). a hand written diet sheet

4). Vaccination card (as she was 11 weeks by then)

Oh and advised verbally that she would need worming in a week.

No-one did sales contracts back then, and the bitch was not endorsed as it wasn't generally done, though by my first litter I endorsed 3 years later and people started to do it more after that, and pretty much everyone does now.

Was I in any doubt she was a good breeder, no!!!!!

The dogs some kennelled some not were clean happy, and the pups running in and out of the bungalow were confident chubby sweet smelling, and importantly I already knew the breeder had good standing within the breed.

>But as you haven't had a visit yourself, you can't know EXACTLY what happens and it is only hearsay.

I have spoken to two people in my breed people recently visited, both of whom I have visited myself (stayed with bitches for mating) but as different in their homes as could be.  One being a mother of two very lively children, where the dogs are very much part and parcel of a busy family, living in a country setting, so barking and a bit of noise not an issue, the other breeder in a suburb, with more dogs, but middle aged, with mostly adults and older grandchildren visiting.

Both provide excellent back up to new owners and plenty of paperwork, the later a veritable book, yet both were criticised.

> I feel this has all been brought in too fast for many of us to be happy about it all.

Totally agree. My renewal was at the end of October and there was no mention of the proposed changes then. They must have known then that the changes were in the pipeline. A week's notice is ridiculous, there should have been month's at least. It must be such a worry for those with newborn litters and litters due and at this time of year nobody to talk to as the offices are closed or on limited opening over the holiday period.

I have resigned and of course have heard nothing...

> I feel this has all been brought in too fast for many of us to be happy about it all

I joined the scheme when it first came out and I was an assured breeder. The scheme now bears no relation to the scheme I joined and it is not going in the direction I expected. I
a have said before I am not keen on the visits and was told it would be just like puppy buyers visiting. My puppy buyers don't scan all my dogs chips and take numerous photos as evidence.  I am even less keen on having a visit now.

I don't want to be a professional dog breeder and to have to jump through lots of hoops. I just want the occasional litter from my pets so I can show and do agility. Its all getting much too serious.

I have resigned and of course have heard nothing...

I have seen on Facebook that some people have received phone calls asking why they've left the scheme...  Perhaps you will also be asked why you have left.