Hi, I took my 8 week puppy to the vets today for the first time (had her two days) for a health check. She has been loose since we brought her home and I put this down to stress (3 hour car journey home). Following the health check, which she passed with flying colours, the vet gave me a Milbemax tablet, which I gave her 45 minutes before her meal. She left half the meal and was a bit sluggish for 3 or 4 hours really liquid loose 3 or 4 times during that period. The last time she went there was a little blood, which concerns me? She had perked up and happily playing but I am worried.

The puppy I have now has reacted to three different types of wormer, mainly being loose, but one of them made her vomit as well. Some dogs do seem to be affected this way it seems. It shouldn't last long 24 hours or so. If it goes on longer, contact the vets

What breed is she, Mollymop?

Did you check with breeder that pup had not just been wormed before giving her another wormer?

Hi .... Molly is a labrador retriever which I purchased from a breeder on Champdogs

Hi... I am sorry about the slow response .... Had trouble getting into the forum.

I believe the breeder wormed the pups at 5 weeks and said they needed to be wormed at 8 weeks. She is still loose and 50% of her motions has a show of blood, which is normally passed towarding the end of her motion. I did phone the vet on Tuesday 23rd and explain what was happening and they said "don't worry about it as it is normal with young pups". And went on to explain tiny blood vessels often burst in the anal passage. This will be her 4th day at home and if there  is no change today, I plan to take her back to the vet's tomorrow, as they are closed 25th, 26th. She is going about 10/12 times per 24 hour period, which is not right. We are worried and I am starting to think she has a deeper problem. We was specifically looking for a short/small black lab bitch and there was only 2 in the litter. We had the choice of these and naturally went for the smaller one. I say smaller.... she was only slightly smaller and her sister looked a real chubby little girl. We saw all the pups with their mother at 4 weeks but only saw the to black bitches on the day of the collection. She appears to be a happy girl, playing and sleeping as you would expect a puppy to do. This is our second lab, Megs died at 12 years old 5 years ago and it took a long time to get over that loss..... I certainly don't recall these issues with her.

What are you feeding her on, and how often?

"Did you check with breeder that pup had not just been wormed before giving her another wormer? "

I'd have to agree with this.   Good breeders will normally worm their litters starting as young as 2 weeks of age (at which point mum is usually wormed again too, just the once) and ongoing every 2 weeks to the time they go home.  Using a gentle worming syrup.    You should have been given, or asked for, a worming history, including when done, and with what, when you collected your puppy.   If the pup had only just been dosed, which can happen, giving another wouldn't have been a great idea, much as your vet may have seen enough in him, to suspect it needed worming?  (bloated tummy, dull staring coat).    Before you do any more (and yes, puppies can have a reaction) next time you take your new puppy into the vet, for the next set of vaccination would be time enough, take a stool sample with you so your vet can test for anything he may have, and I'd include one for Giardia too.   Justin case.   You may need to call into the vet and ask them for a purpose made pot to do the collection!   Have fun with your puppy, but if he carries on being loose, gets worse, of has vomiting, check back with your vet.

Add -   Reading your last post, I'd not want to see blood in stools, especially in a young puppy.   If it's bright red, then it's coming from lower down the digestive tract, which is marginally better than dark blood which is coming from the stomach /higher up, and potentially more serious.   Have you changed the diet because if you don't do this gradually, this would be enough to produce diarrhoea, with /without blood.   If you go back to the vet when they open, collect some of this stool and ask them to run a fecal.   You can collect it in foil.

BTW buying from a breeder listed here is a start, but no guarantee you have a good breeder - you still need to do your homework!

I am feeding her on what the breeder recommended... Arden Grange Large Puppy and the amounts she recommended, although I have cut it back from 100gms soaked in hot water 4 times per day to 100gms.

>although I have cut it back from 100gms soaked in hot water 4 times per day to 100gms.

I don't understand - are you saying you're feeding a quarter of what she was eating before?

The feeding guide for AG large breed puppy of 5 - 10 kg is 250-400gm daily.

Her motions have been less today, although still loose and any slight blood show is light in colour. She also has much more energy today as she played for almost 4 hours before falling asleep. I will call the vet first thing in the morning and explain my concerns, ask whether he would check her over and see whether he would like me to bring in a stool sample.

Could somebody please explain how the 4 week puppy insurance works as the breeder covers her pups for this period from day of collection, with the KC insurance.

Thank you all for your support.

No I didn't say that. At the vet's on Monday she weighed 4.3kg and the breeder said I should give her 100gms 4 times a day. The guidelines on the bag recommends less than that so in view of her upset tummy, I reduced it to 100gms 3 times a day.

Reading the amounts recommended on the bag, at her weight she should be having about 250g daily, but certainly spread over 4 meals rather than 3. Smaller, more frequent meals are easier on the digestion than fewer, larger ones.

Maybe i'll go back to spreading it over for meals.... She eats all her first meal 100gms. Then she leaves half her second and third meal, going back to it later when hungry. I thought that would be ok.

Is she show lines or working lines? Just curious because 4.3 kilos at 8 weeks seems small to me (I had Golden Retrievers for years, which are similar in size, and the smallest I ever had, who ended up undersized as an adult, was 5.5 kg at 8 weeks, the largest was 11 kilos at 8 weeks) but working lines tend to be finer boned.

My Golden Retriever was 7.2kgs at eight and a half weeks and 9.2kgs at ten and a half weeks. She was very well boned and what is generally referred to as 'chunky'. She was eating 100grms per meal at eight weeks, she really tucked it away for the first few weeks then started leaving some at meals so was cut done to three meals.

Ring your breeder.  This is the sort of advice they should be giving you, even at Christmas - after all a lifetime of support is one of the things you pay for when choosing the right breeder for your puppy.

A side note - this is too early to be reducing the number of meals, your pup should still be on 4 meals a day.  I have to admit that vets do not always have the best advice on these matters which is why a good breeder is worth their weight in gold.

Re insurance - the breeder will have given you the paperwork and it's down to you to call the insurer to transfer it into your own name when you get home.  However, most insurers exclude conditions that arise within the first 14 days so you may well find you aren't covered.

> Re insurance - the breeder will have given you the paperwork and it's down to you to call the insurer to transfer it into your own name when you get home.  However, most insurers exclude conditions that arise within the first 14 days so you may well find you aren't covered.

This is now done online by the breeder...I know I activated all my last litter(now 13 months old) on the day they left to their new owners. All the owners had their cover note with details they need to claim....although I suspect it wont cover very much!!!

The breeder advertises as such .....I own a beautiful chunky show type Labrador of which first and foremost is my family pet and her wellbeing always comes before anything. They describe themselves as hobby breeders. The stud is from the Rocheby kennels.

I have sent them an email late this afternoon expressing my concerns and hopefully I will hear back soon?

Your comments are starting to worry me more than ever!

Fingers crossed all will be fine but the size does worry me and having looked up the breeder I didn't much like what I found -breeding for the sake of breeding only, not showing or working, claiming they breed quality not quantity yet have produced no less than TEN litters in the past 4 years, and when you Google the kennel name all it comes up with is puppy adverts, whereas for a good breeder you would expect to find lots of show and/or working results and similar.  However at least parents are hip scored and elbow scored even though the bitches don't seem to be eye tested before being bred from. As it's a normal Friday tomorrow, I'd call the vet to play safe. I am also hoping that kayc who is a very good Labrador breeder will come back and give her take on the weight of your pup.

The sire has produced 16 litters and he's only just over 2!

Mollymop, I would expect an 8week old pup to weight at least 6.5 - 8 kilos.. on average a Lab gains 1kg per week... some more, some a little less... at 4.3kg, this is severly underweight, and I would expect this to be the weight of a 5week old pup.   rather than going back to feeding her 4times per day I would feed smaller amounts around 6times a day, still maintaining the recommended amounts, just split into smaller meals and more often...  I would also go back to semi soaking her food to make sure she is taking in enough liquids

playing and running around for 4hours at a time is very unusual at this age, mostly it is a 10-15mins spurt and then sleep for a few hours.. waking to eat and sleep...  I wonder if she is playing like this on her own, or are you encouraging her to keep playing!  If you are playing with her then stop!  over excersise can produce very loose stools, and a more relaxed environment may help (assuming their is nothing more sinister at play)  It is possible that she has a bug, possibly guardia or campylobactor, and this can be determined with a sample.. and treated.. My concern would be more with her low weight.

Thank you for the excellent advice. She is still passing blood today and I have collected a sample in silver foil. I will reduce her quantities to little and often. I have to admit I have been playing with her and taking her out for little sorties, because I thought is was beneficial. I have read that over exercising should be avoided and here I am do exactly that. I will see what her weight is today? I have always given her soaked food and sprinkled a few dry bits over the top. But yesterday reverted back to just soaked food.

I am worried about the comments about the breeder. Is it possible they were aware she was under weight due to ill health? Maybe that question is unfair. But all this worry get the mind thinking.

I too would expect an 8 week labrador to be in the 5-10kg bracket on the feeding guide, and a weight gain of 2lb/1kg a week would be normal and healthy.

> I am worried about the comments about the breeder. Is it possible they were aware she was under weight due to ill health

Have you heard from the breeder yet - have you tried to ring them rather than emailing?  I suspect you'll be able to ascertain exactly what sort of breeder they are by the response you get to your call.  There is no reason at this stage to assume they knew there was a problem but with the number of litters they've had in recent years they ought to have noticed that this pup was underweight...

I must admit I had a look at the breeder and there are a number of things that would worry me - and I certainly wouldn't chose to get a pup from them - but perhaps they're better than they look at first glance.  Do you have anyone else that is dog experienced that could take a look at your puppy for you and with whom you could share your concerns.  Normally your breeder would be that person but perhaps in this instance someone else might be better.  Sometimes it's useful to get feedback from a dog owner (with experience and knowledge or puppies) as well as a vet who is looking purely at the medical needs.

I hope things work out for you and this puppy but do not be afraid to give her back to the breeder IF it turns out that she has medical problems.  I know that seems harsh but the breeder has responsibilities and should be willing to do the right thing for the puppies she produces.  Additionally you may find yourself with large vet bills and an uninsured dog...  Do you have a contract with the breeder?

I have not had a response from the breeder yet and I have an appointment at 11 a.m with the vet and I will contact the breeder when I return from the vets.

So much for 15 minutes play the a couple of hours sleep. She has been active for 4 hours so far and we have ignored her apart from popping her outside for a wees etc. The symptoms for Giardia do appear close to Molly's. There is a little more blood showing and there is quite a lot of mucus.... But no foul smell!

Molly now weighs 4.85kg. The vet thought she maybe a little under weight but she looks really healthy. As soon as he saw the stool sample he thought colitis since there was a lot of mucus. He said he didn't think it was giadia since the wormer, Panacur paste controls gaidia. One of the ladies in the vet's has bred labs before and she thought she looked really healthy and maybe a little underweight. We have changed her food to Royal Canin Sensitivity Control and will keep her on 5 or 6 smaller feeds spread over a 12 hour period. She is taking 1/4 tablet of Metronidazole daily. Hopefully this will clear up her little problem quickly.

Thank you all for your advice and support .... and I still haven't heard from the breeder. The contract I signed said that if a vet did not think the pup was fit to be sold it could be returned with a signed letter giving the reasons why from the vet's ..... within 72 hours! Which is long gone!

Hope all goes well with your puppy, do keep in touch and let us know how she progresses.
My pups litter brother came down with campylobacter at round about 12 weeks. Once the vet discovered what was actually wrong and treated him, he improved, but was underweight and weedy for quite a time compared to my pup. Now at 7 months he is taller and really beginning to fill out developing a much thicker neck and chest. He is on a sensitive type of food, but his stomach sensitivity is beginning to improve and the owner is starting to introduce other foods without any further 'bottom' problems. :-)

Good to hear that things are not all that bad... It may be she was just the tiniest in a large litter (you never said how large the litter was) and will come on well as she gets older.  (been there done that .. and have a little titch at the moment, but she will be around 14weeks before/if I decide to home her) 

Thank you for the kind words and thoughts and I will keep you all posted on her progress.

Like I said earlier, I went down to her this morning at 06:30 and she would not sleep at all. We had an 11:00 appointment with the vet and she fell asleep while the vet was looking at her. She has had two small meals since then and due another shortly and she gobbles up the sensitivity and licks her bowl clean, which is really positive. She has slept most of the afternoon, just waking for a pee etc. playing for 10 minutes then out cold again. Like a normal puppy should! We feel like we have already turned a corner.

Still no response from the breeder, so they obviously have no interest now they have our money. I wish there was a review section that would help buyers identify the dodgy breeders. Then maybe there would be more good breeders!

Thanks again
Ken

>I wish there was a review section that would help buyers identify the dodgy breeders.

If they are a KC assured breeder you should have had a feedback form to return to the Kennel club.

Playing devils advocate here, being Christmas they may well be away from home.

Thank you for that info Brainless.... I look forward to receiving it. Still no word from them and baring in mind they are selling two litters of puppies (one litter born 20/10/2013 the other 28/10/2013 ....I doubt they are away!

Update....... Someone broke into my house last night and swapped Molly! I can tell because this dog only pooped once during the night and only once today at the time of writing this. She goobles up her food and her character is far too calm. So I know it's not her!

I hope that's just a joke and not really true and she's just feeling better now.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Update....... Someone broke into my house last night and swapped Molly! I can tell because this dog only pooped once during the night and only once today at the time of writing this. She goobles up her food and her character is far too calm. So I know it's not her!

Lock all your doors and windows in case they try to swap her again lol !!

Yes..... I am joking! She is completely content, she has started chewing on her bowl when finished, trying to get more out of it and I am sure already putting on weight! I reckon i'll get a good night sleep tonight. Maybe i'll ask the better half to sit up on guard tonight ... lol

I was given a KC pedigree history..... Are you suggesting that they should have supplied me with a feedback form, or they will send me one? If I don't get one what is my best course of action? Contact the KC?

Someone , I'm sure will confirm this, but there is a list of items that the KC want breeders to give to the new owners. Bill of sale, pedigree, feeding regime,care of puppy, microchip details if done,there is more can't think of them all offhand and there is aKC feedback form to make sure all these have been complied with. The breeder I used this time gave me anA4 folder full of all sorts of interesting things and details,mover and above the norm. In the past I've had a sheet of paper and the pedigree and not much else.

>Are you suggesting that they should have supplied me with a feedback form

You would only have got a feedback form if you bought her from an Assured Breeder; 'ordinary' breeders don't get issued with these. However you should have been given a sales contract, a pedigree (either produced by the breeder or a KC issued one), a feeding guide, registration document, written advice on worming, vaccinations, exercise and training.

>I was given a KC pedigree history..... Are you suggesting that they should have supplied me with a feedback form, or they will send me one? If I don't get one what is my best course of action? Contact the KC?

Firstly are they Kennel club Assured Breeders'

If so you should have the feedback form and addressed envelope provided in the  Purple folder, also  containing:

Kennel Club registration Document
Contract of Sale

Advice on:
Breed Specific Traits
Socialisation and Future Training
Feeding
Excersise
Groming

A record of:
Worming
Vaccination (if appropriate)

Various others like:
Pedigree
health scheme results
Microchip/Tattoo certificates
Contacts for breed clubs etc

Of course good breeders will provide those and more even if they are not members of the Assured Breeder Scheme.

Hi Jeangenie,
I was given everything you listed accept a feedback form. The pedigree was a KC one as far as I know? How can I check to see whether they are an Assured Breeder?

Thanks

Am i right in thinking they were south yorkshire?  If so

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/acbr/Default.aspx?breed=Retriever+(Labrador)&county=South+Yorkshire

They are close to Bradford, but I looked on both South and West Yorkshire and they are not listed. It does say on the listing pages that some breeders may choose not to be listed! I can only assume they either come under this category or they are not Assured Breeders!

I feel like I have been deceived by the breeder and let down by both Champdogs  and the KC, since I thought they would be the safest way to purchase a puppy and breeders that were vetted before they were allowed to advertise .... I guess I am just nieve, even at my age!

Thank god she has recovered and acting like a normal puppy. We will continue treat her with kid gloves and build her weight and strength up and hopefully she will remain fit and healthy.   Hooray.....Solid poops today!

>I feel like I have been deceived by the breeder and let down by both Champdogs  and the KC,

Not all good breeders choose to be Kennel Club Assured Breeders, in fact at the moment many like myself are reconsidering their membership and choosing to resign for various reasons, mainly due to a huge price hike for membership (you get nothing for it other than a big workload of extra red tape) and some of the scheme requirements being less compatible for those of us with family dogs that are bred from on occasion in pursuance of our canine hobbies (be that showing, trailing, obedience, Agility etc), and more suitable for larger more formal 'kennels' due to the formal UKAS accreditation the KC have gone for.

On the other hand some assured breeders may tick al the boxes for the right paperwork, right number of kennels for dogs, basic standards and some compulsory health testing, and all clean and tidy, but lack the passion, knowledge and tlc that other breeders have.

When it comes down to it is really does mean the buyer has to satisfy themselves about the breeder and the breeding stock their potential puppy purchase comes from, no-one can really do it for them.

You might get an idea from this recent thread from the breeder point of view http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/142638.html

I see what you mean Brainless.... It does appear that many of the ABS members are unhappy with the scheme and reading all the posts I can understand why!

I think I will have to accept that my breeder has faults, in as much as zero after sales care (still not heard from them). The most important thing in my case is that Molly is now well and putting on that much needed weight. She has caring guardians who will ensure she has a full happy and healthy life.

To be fair upset tummies in puppies are very common, not only due to the stress of changing homes, water,  then being vaccinated etc  worming will nearly always upset them to a greater or lesser degree.

Also giardia or campylobacter infections are easy to pick up with puppies being puppies an having less mature immune systems.

Also once on their own greedy pups may overeat, being given more than they need by well meaning owners and then you get loose tummies too, then they don't feel like eating their food is often changed to tempt them making it worse etc.

One reason I like to have my whelps chubby when they leave me, so they have something to fall back on..

Also it isn't unusual to have the odd puppy that is smaller than usual (but still well nourished), especially in larger litters (6+) they often catch up over the months.

Some useful information... Thanks.

Molly came from a litter of 13, mums first litter. It was either 3 or 4 died... squashed by mum apparently. This morning Molly weighed 5.55kg (bathroom scales so may not be accurate). Because she was so ill before and after her worming (milbemax) at first visit to vets. On the second visit 4 days later, the vet said it probably went straight through, so gave her another one via external drops to the back of the neck... Saying this will be an insurance against worms and the Gaidia. She was given a spray for mites and flees on her first visit but has continued to scratch all the time. I am assuming this is a reaction to her previous food. Her motions are good now, nice and firm and about 4 times over a 24 hour period. I know the breeder also liked to build them into chubby pups since she always described them as her chunky monkeys! Not sure what happened in Molly's case. Molly's diet was recommeded to be 100gms x 4 per day of the Arden Grange food. The Royal Canin 'Sensitivity Control' Recommends 125gms per day for large breeds weighing up to 5kg and 210gms up to 10kg. I have been giving her 60gms morning and night and 50gms 3 times in between = 270gms. Am I over doing it? She gobbles up every meal! I have always made sure my dogs are not over weight, not humanised and obedient.... You could hold a conversation with my last lab. Molly will come to work with me on the golf course every day, once she has had her injections, which were intended to be 10 and 12 weeks but we may leave it until 11 and 13 weeks.

Again, I appreciate the help and support you and others had given.
Ken

Are you putting Molly directly onto the scales to weigh her? The best way is to stand on the scales yourself and make a note of your weight, then pick up the puppy and weigh both of you together. Take one from the other and you will get a more accurate weight of your dog.
I roughly follow feeding guidelines, but your pup will be growing rapidly at this stage and needs plenty of nourishment. If she is clearing her bowl and looking for more then give her more at meal times. If she leaves some then reduce. I found my current pup had major growth spurts at various times and really needed her food, at other times she was less bothered and I let her guide me to a large extent. Obviously you don't want her turning into a roll poly pup, but don't skimp on food for fear of her running to fat at this stage. The time to become careful with food is when they have finished their major growth spurt and especially after having a bitch spayed. I'm led more by how my dog feels and looks rather then following strict feeding guidelines.

Hi Ken, that background information is very helpful, :)  It seems you are doing everything well, Molly is gaining, even if it is a little, it is still a gain.  Although a litter for 13 in Labradors is not uncommon, it is still a large litter, so you would expect pups to be slightly smaller.  It may be that Molly was very tiny and has taken much longer to 'come on'.  It happens.. I think in my last post I mentioned I have a 'tiny pup' at the moment.. from a litter of 16..(those following my FB page will know the story)  never expected to survive, and beat all the odds, and at 3 weeks old she reached the size and weight of a 'normal' newborn... perhaps this is how your little Molly started out.. good luck with her and hope she comes on in leaps and bounds as my little one has.

By the way, did you hear from her breeder yet?

Hi Kayc, Thanks for the words of encouragement...... No I have not heard from the breeder!

Ken

I do feel that actually all the worming and chemicals will perhaps have aggravated the stress of changing homes etc, and contributed largely to the intestinal issues.

I have often found this with my won pups, but once they are at 12 weeks and past vaccinations etc and only being wormed once a month then their output is much more settled.

I do hope the breeder gets back in touch and it ahs just been the hectic Christmas period that has delayed contact.  They may be away with someone dog sitting.