Too late to amend.  My friend is a very experienced and knowledgeable Dobe owner, with interests in training etc.

Children only came within lifetime the last two dogs, though my children had been around all her dogs from tiny, as well as her siblings children, all under proper supervision.

It was quite noticeable that the male dog was far less tolerant of interaction with strangers, than her previous males.  As you say he was much more 'on the alert' than the general UK show dogs. 

Had she not seen with her own eyes she would always have said that the child must have done something, inadvertently, that made the dog go, but he had simply walked past where the dog was resting, (he was around two years old and had been walking a good while) and in a split second he had him down and was stood over him, growling, and thankfully the child froze and didn't move or make a sound and my friend immediately called the dog off.

The decision to PTS was heart-breaking one.

Yes.  The last two

> Is there no DNA test?

There is now for some of the genes involved but as I understand it (bearing in mind I am a little behind atm) there are several genes known to be causers of the disease; and that only accounts for 85% of cases.  There is another test for a substance that I always forget the name of; I'll have to look it up - a hormone or similar that is highly indicative of the presence of the disease I think.  Not too clear on that I'm afraid.

> it was a Roanoak dog bred by someone called Richardson, apparently he had around 60 dogs

That's interesting; Roanoak dogs were supposed to be very good, he was one of (if not the) last decent breeder of dilutes, or supposed to be.  I've got a clipping somewhere of one of his fawns, stunning dog (and a million, million miles from my own fawn boy with his awful coat and conformation).

> The other one simply  died, so probably heart.

Most likely, this is how both Soli and her brother died - Gunnar at 6yrs old in the middle of a game of fetch, and his poor owner hadn't even heard of DCM, never mind knowing that his dog had it :-(  I at least knew with Soli (Gunnar was one of the reasons I had her scanned, she never showed any symptoms) and I knew she didn't have long left when she did die, although it was still a shock as she dropped in front of me.  Evil disease.

My friend is a very experienced and knowledgeable Dobe owner,

Are you talking about someone who has traditionaly bred dobs in UK shows & also for UK prospective buyers??? e.g. Kerioaks

Barbara - I have been and still am trying to establish exactly what you mean by European dogs,but, maybe your comment above is a good place to start again so that eventually there is a clear, non ambiguous clarity as to exactly what you are refering to as European dogs!

Just so you understand where my confusion is, it is this:

Your early posts on the above (european dogs) suggested your friend had imported from parents which had passed the fit for purpose tests & consequently been granted a fit for purpose breeding license per dog & which could consequently be entered into the international Dobe championship shows and it was these dogs which had health problems.

Was my understanding correct???
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Brainless
It was quite noticeable that the male dog was far less tolerant of interaction with strangers, than her previous males. 

HP
Were her previous males traditional UK bred Dobes????

Brainless
As you say he was much more 'on the alert' than the general UK show dogs.

HP
It is a normal Dobe characteristic (I mean European Dobes) to be alert with all 4 of the 5 senses active in constant analysis of its environment, the vid below is a short vid in 4 different environments & only concentrates on the sensory awarness of the dog, shes 2 month short of 11 in this vid.

http://youtu.be/54dhPFfEbu4
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European dogs = dogs imported from Europe and then bred from here. 

European lines = (at least one European imported parent and probably similar on other parents side)

Experienced owner = multiple Dobe owner (4 UK lines together at one time, capable of being walked and managed obediently together) both UK and Euro lines (two of European lines together, most recent) for 15+ years, as I said non breeder, owner and exhibitor with an interest in trainings (shutzhund training started before children intervened).

Health issues, the unsuitable temperament for a family companion, in the last two, and of course the cancer, but that I don't look on as a line specific, but the result of what dogs die of when everything else is cured.

The bitch by an imported sire has a very strange temperament issue which I can only like to Agoraphobia, She is wonderful at home, yes alert and an excellent guard, has an off switch once owner okays visitors, is friendly and excellent with the well trained children.

We think her issues started off as hormone related.  She was a confident youngster well socialised, showing good working aptitude and then had her first season, after which she started reacting to other dogs barking etc (fear, shaking etc), this not not improve post season and started to become generalised, and after second season she would be quite obviously fearful outside the home, react to any dogs or people even those she knew well like mine. 

Showing and training had to be stopped, as it was just to stressful for her, and she was spayed, so sadly she became one of those dogs walked late purely for exercise, but at home you'd never know it, and now at 13+ she is quite happy to not go out at all, just play ball, games with children etc.

The male came along after this, and was obviously never walked with her, so as not to pick up on her issues, which she didn't display at home.

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European dogs = dogs imported from Europe and then bred from here. 

European lines = (at least one European imported parent and probably similar on other parents side)

Thanks very much Barbara, now I know exactly what you mean by that part of your definition of 'European dogs' - can I take it that it is not your personal definition but you are simply repeating what UK Dobe breeders are calling them.

They are NOT european dogs at all, they have recent Euro dog in them on one side & probably an UK brit dog on the other, that is not and cannot be accepted as a Euro dog. Not your personal flaw I think buy an ancient Brit Dobe breeders nonsence claims, it's exactly what they called the same kind of breeding back in 1976.

The link below is to the data sheet of 'Hillmora The Corsair' (dob 1971), UK breeders called him a 'German' dog, he was NOT a German dog, he was UK breeding with a well known UK line of the time.

I had a pup from a dam he mated with, he was a dog with reasonable, well balanced drives, quite a solid nerve dog, I had a great relationship with him. I got one from that litter because of the German Wilm Von Forrell import, I had nothing to do with the show people, they were all about people not dogs, I was involved with a mixed breed working group of the time, but the show people would have called mine a 'German' dog, seems the misleading things they come out with have not changed, the UK lines have changed though, 60% CM, they had not managed that UK/KC achievement in the 1970's.
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Brainless
European lines = (at least one European imported parent and probably similar on other parents side)

I understand that, its UK breeding, it is NOY euro breeding at all, they do not just breed Dobes like that in Europe, they are very precise as to which dogs are mated to which & any doubts they contact the breed club for opinion or permission. Some countries in Eastern Europe do not have the scrutiny of the Northern euro clubs which is why you never find many with any international title or mixed in amongst the long standing lines of international repute.
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Sorry I forgot the link below to the UK bred dog Hillmora The Corsair which UK breeders called a German dog, I had a food dog from him buy he was an English bred dog, see link to pedidgree data sheet below.

As a bye product, I think it is an apalling state of affairs that a UK KC breed clubs members are breeding at all with 60% CM & all the other things I have had via my Youyube site, not least that one which had a terminal condition the owner hed been told by her vet not to get another Dobe here because of the health problems, how sad to know that is the achievment of this past 37 years of UK Dobe breeding.

Aechive data sheet
http://bit.ly/JrdbWf
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