Hi I have 2 sibling English Springer Spaniel puppies that are both bitches.

The are currently just under 3 months old and get on really well with each other but we do take them out walking by themselves, unless prevented by time or some reason when we will take a pup each but on separate leads.

We lost our 10 year old English Springer at the start of August who was my husbands gun dog, hence why he wanted to get another, so they will be ready for next years season at some point.

We have a 10 year old Black Lab and both of the pups are already rolling over to her and have made no effort to question her pack leadership.

That's the background the question I wanted help with is that when we contacted puppy trainers, as we plan to take them to separate classes? One of them has got me really worried as she said that we have to be careful as they could fight to the death at some point!!!!!

Both dogs will be puppy trained and then dog gun trained when they are a little older and have field trial champions in there hertiage.

Both of our other dogs were both rescue dogs so we are use to strange behaviour, as the Springer we lost was an entire male and aggressive for the first year or so then soft as brush after that, he was also diabetic and had insulin injections every day, had bi cateral eye replacements, ear canal surgery and finally succumbed to kidney failure. We were very lucky as he was insured and we have excellent vet. Who has already checked the pups out and is looking forward to looking after them........................with the health problems.

Sorry for going on and on, first time I have posted

Have a read through this recent thread on the same subject:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/142111.html
I'm afraid it is a very bad idea to have two puppies of the same age, and having the same sex as well as same age does greatly increase the likelihood of them starting to fight in future -in particular with bitches.

Hmmm, I think it depends on the breed and the natures of the puppies.  Springers, are bred to be tolerant of other dogs.  I mean, how would it go out on a shoot, for the dogs to all start on each other.  My springer has the perfect springer temperament.  She will tolerate other dogs beside her but she will not make eye contact with them.  As far as she's concerned, they are in her way of catching my next signal.  If they annoy her, she will give a warning growl which is normally enough.  I doubt you will have a major fighting issue when they mature.  You may just have a wrestle for topdog? We are having that at the minute as we lost our topbitch about 6 months ago.  Ours have been 'tussling' ever since as they are both so soft!lol  And the GSD doesn't even want involved!lol  And when I say tussling, it's all posturing and grumbling, no actual teeth.  Spaniels are soft mouthers so don't tend to be biters or fighters.

It's funny how different breeds have you thinking different ways.  Like, spaniels or beagles, these are dogs that I wouldn't mind selling a sibling pair.  These are dogs that are 'meant' to live in packs and love the company of other dogs.  But the boxer post?  I was in total agreement to send one back!  Shows the diversity of dogs, true enough.

fight to the death at some point!!!!!

We got 2 pups from the same litter, a male and a female, yes a lot of hard work but no regrets at all. As they are Patterdales we were warned that Patts are aggressive and would kill each other, we had lots of tales of dead dogs with Patts and were told not to get this breed etc etc.
They are both adorable lovely family pets and love everyone ( deadly if you are a rat, bird or rabbit as they work together - yes we allow them to work our land but they are home pets as well ) They adore each other, have never had a fight of any kind, and are happy being cuddled on the settee.
They were trained separately but always walked together. The only problem I see in the future is if one of them died then the other would be devastated rather like twins.
I doubt I would ever do this again as it was hard work to get them to listen to us and not just each other, but we managed it and have no regrets THIS time, but not to be repeated.
I think it depends on the temperament of the dogs because I have had more fighting problems with 2 retrievers than my Patts, so you never can tell. I think having a male and a female helped.

For 13 years I had two GR bitches with about 13 months between them. Apart from the hard work over training, which is another issue, I had no problems with them over who should be top dog. The older one was a very laid back dog although was very nervous in new situations and enjoyed having a friend and wasn't bothered about anything unless food was involved. She laid down the law over food when we first bought home the new pup who decided that was ok with me, I'll just be in charge of everything else. They only every had one cross word when I was playing a lively game with the older dog and the younger one came round a corner, saw the older dog madly jumping about and thought I was being attacked and needed rescuing! Like the dogs in an earlier post, there was a lot of growling (from one dog) the other dog didn't even notice what was going on, I said 'that's enough' and that was it. Never had anything happen again. I think cracar could well be right over the breed and nature of the puppies, however having said all that, I wouldn't get two pups together, in fact I wouldn't get them at 13 months again, I would wait much longer.

Springers, are bred to be tolerant of other dogs.  I mean, how would it go out on a shoot, for the dogs to all start on each other.

That's not how it works at all. It is the LIVING together, not just meeting. For instance I have a male dog who cannot live with my male neutered dogs, he had a VERY serious fight with one (as in £900 worth of vets fees afterwards) but he is perfectly fine to go for walks with them or run around the garden with them when we are there. I also have a bitch who doesn't get on with one of her daughters, they can't meet at home at all but they are fine going to shows together and being close then. It's territorial.

Oh dear, whoever sold you two bitch puppies together wants their head examining. :-( A dog and a bitch would have been hard enough work, but two bitches............ tut tut.

The trainer you spoke to is quite right and there is a high possibility that the now happy pups who love each other on reaching maturity will suddenly begin to fight, it is extremely rare that two bitches will be at the same hierarchy level once mature, being exactly the same age, someone will have to give.........play fights turn into real fights to sort out who has the upper hand, sometimes, it can be ok as one will automatically be more submissive to the other, but the problem is if you are clever you don't take the chance as it is difficult to judge with pups.

You may well have FTCH in your pedigree, but the betting is you bought your pups from a pet breeder who probably knows no more about dogs than feeding and exercising them, no reputable breeder would ever sell two pups together like this.

The good points....... firstly, you'll be keeping the pups busy with training - fantastic, the more time they spend apart the less chance of them just bonding with one another and then needing to sort out who has the upper hand, if you were just having these dogs as pets only I would absolutely tell you to take one back, you would be totally mad to keep two bitches and take that risk. Luckily you are not just keeping them as pets, as your husband is also going to train them both as gundogs. :-) Once again spending a lot of time apart and time with their trainer.

Secondly, you have an 'Alpha', whether she is a strong alpha only time will tell, she may eventually be overturned, (you won't know that until the pups reach maturity) for your sake I hope that she will be, as she will be the key here in how the pups will grow up, if she is a 'true' alpha she'll keep them in order and be as important to keeping them in line as you and your husband will be, allow her to chastise them and take the lead, also allowing her escape time if she needs it.

As Cracar has said you have a breed that is a pack breed and has dog friendly traits, so it may not be quite as hard as with other breeds, however, hierarchy can get in the way of that, but if you put your heart and soul into the training and not allowing them to spend too much time together as pups it may work out, unfortunately it depends greatly on character, although a good breeder can spot characters in 8 week old pups and match that to the new owner, no-one can ever really know  how a pup/s character will evolve around other dogs, some get mentally and physically stronger instinctually allowing them to volly for a higher rank, others become more submissive, (and stay in the background) and sometimes you can be lucky and have pups of the same mindset. (That can happen too)

You now have three bitches in the mix you may be lucky, or you may be unlucky, once seasons start (as neutering should not be done until after the first season) all hell may break loose, you won't know until it happens, it is a wait and see I'm afraid........... but if you keep them focussed on yourselves and training hopefully you can detract the situation, you really will need to be training focussed.

If you feel it is too much hard work, take one bitch back, otherwise I wish you luck and have my fingers crossed for you. :-)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I will be getting my husband to join the forum as well.

The Alpha female that we have has already put them in their place and she has loads of 'me' time to herself. She was a stray and put our last Springer in his place and as I said he was aggressive when we first got him.

We will be getting the 2 puppies spayed as soon as they have their first season, as they are going to be working dogs and not just pets. One of the puppies is already submissive to the other one.

The breeder of the dogs are friends, and the only reason he breeds is when he needs a new gundog, he now has 4 Springers and a Jack Russell (All the Springers are related, the mother, 2 sisters (one was the mother of my puppies) and they have also kept one of the pups, They are all female.

I work from home so it helps that I am around most of the day so can keep an eye on them. They also enjoy their time apart when out for walks and we have been socializing them to other dogs whenever we get the chance.

Marianne, I meant the living together as well.  I was just making a point of 'why' they are tolerant of other dogs.  I have other breeds that I wouldn't consider having the opposite sex nearby, but with spaniels, they are far more social.  I think the breeds you are talking about (£900 worth of vet bills) are maybe more 'dominant' breeds?
Not that I'm saying two pups of ANY breed are a good idea at the same time.  I just meant, problems like fighting are less likely with spaniels.

I think the breeds you are talking about (£900 worth of vet bills) are maybe more 'dominant' breeds?

Yes but the very WORST bitches I have ever had for fighting with other bitches if the age difference wasn't big enough, and I had no less than 3 of them at different times, were all Golden Retrievers! Well bred ones from 3 different breeders, all 3 from dual purpose lines where the family was worked in the field. I will never forget one Christmas Day for instance, arriving at the vet's to have a big strong Malinois stitched up, and telling the vet that yes it really was a Golden that did this, and no, that one hasn't got a mark on her. Hence I'd not feel entirely safe with any breed. I even had a Cavalier bitch once who fought very badly with another Cavalier bitch very close in age.

Bitches.  Who'd have them?! I have had my share of separating bitches due to in-house fighting and to the death too but I've never had more than squabbles with the spaniels.  I would say it's just mine but all my breeder friends that have the same breeds don't have in-house fighting either with breeding bitches.  I have 2 breeding bitches and another bitch that has seasons but I won't breed and I never have issues with them.  Only trying to mate each other during seasons!lol
But, everyone is different.  Maybe they'll get on, maybe they won't.

I have a sociable breed and currently have 6 related bitches living together, Great grandma 14, Grandma 10, two half sisters almost 7 and 5 1/4, and youngsters 2 1/2 and 16 months. 

The youngest are only 15 months apart in age, and their half sister mothers, only 19 months apart.

I now find that they do get into arguments, more than when I had 2 1/2 to 4 year age gaps.

A few spats between the youngest and the five year old Aunt, and disrespect to the oldest,  and the 5 year old and her 10 year old Mum have been very heated, but no actual physical damage.

But the 10 year old (currently just hanging on to top spot) did get quite depressed, with the mental battles, and the youngest really needs keeping in her place, and it makes for more tension than I like to live with.

I do have experience of having 5 Boxer bitches (2 of whom were litter sisters) all living
in harmony (had a mix of spayed and entire girls). So Boxers can live in a pack/like the company of other dogs.
BUT to sell two puppies of the same sex together (regardless of breed) isn't a sensible idea, not everyone can have enough time for a pair of siblings and train to a high standard and quite often one of the pair end up being rehomed and both pups into juniors or adults *can* be unruly and hard to retrain to become sensible canine members of the family.
So
a) why set a family up to potentially fail
b) why put one or both puppies at risk of being rehomed at some point when the family admit defeat
or can't cope as one or both have behavioural or training issues?

Far easier and less stressful to suggest at least 12 months to 18 months between each dog so that they can train/socialise their first
to a good standard and then it makes dog number two more likely to follow the example of the other older dog.
But also important to remember that puppy/dog number 2 still needs the same level of training/socialisation as the first. :)

Somebody once told me, only get another pup when your dog is ready to be a good role model, so looks like in my current case that will be never!

I'm not posting to say its right or wrong or what people should or should not do and before I proceed my dogs were not bred by BYB. their sire and dam came from a top kennel in Spain where all are health tested and their grandfather was champion of Spain 2010. Yes I probably wouldn't have been sold two in the UK but even here I had to prove to the breeder that I knew what I was doing and taking on and they have been back to see him so he could see how they were getting on.

I have two male Rotts who are siblings and who are entire, they are nearly four years old and I have no problems at all with them. Their first week was spent training separately to learn their names and all training after that has been done together and is still done two or three times a week. For probably the first year they had one of their two daily walks separately and either can be left at home on their own.  Right from the start they have not been allowed to growl at each other or their play get out of hand.  Neither is top dog, their trigger would be jealousy over me, which is easily managed.  Both of them would rather be with and please me more than be with each other. I treat them like my children but that does not mean I am soft with them, they are loved, they are talked to, they are played with and educated daily.  My husband say he has never seen dogs so devoted to their owner as mine are to me but its only because you get back what you put in, and I know I am not the only one who has dogs that love them.

Apart from people not having two siblings/same sex there are plenty of people who should never have been able to have one dog.  This post is not to encourage people to have two together because it doesn't just happen on its own you have to put the work in. I also am very lucky to have the time.

I had a Cavalier who fought with our American cocker - both spaniels, both boys, same age. Neutered the cocker and it helped a bit, but we always had to keep them separate if we weren't able to watch them like hawks. I wouldn't risk it again, and bitches are said to be worse!

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">This post is not to encourage people to have two together because it doesn't just happen on its own you have to put the work in. I also am very lucky to have the time.

Sometimes it does not matter how much work or time you put in.

I think this can be very much a breed related thing.
Apart from one male, we only have bitches & NEVER have any cross words or fights. WE are the dominant bitches in our house!!!...lol

I think this can be very much a breed related thing.

But so far in this thread we have had Golden Retrievers, Malinois, Cavaliers, Norwegian Elkhound and American Cocker  -so quite a few breeds there where you would expect there NOT to be a problem.

I think the Elk postee said theirs were ok??? ....just re-read & they didnt used to but do now....

Well obviously it is/can be down to breeding aswell. There can be good tempered or bad tempered in ANY breed

Some(joe public) think that Goldies make excellent family pets...that is not always the case.

Ref goldies as family pets? Generally they are, but not all, my last one wasn't, but the other two were great especially the first one. This one seems ok and is fantastically gentle with children despite being so young. There is good and bad in all breeds and as I have found out, some breed lines better then others.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">There can be good tempered or bad tempered in ANY breed<br />

Not getting on does not mean temperaments are bad, just that particular individuals even in sociable breeds, especially if close in age and status, can mean they do not get on well/fall out.

Fortunately I have ne4ver had serious issues or injuries, but even this level of ' bickering' can make things unpleasant for all concerned..

I've got 2 bitches here that can and do fight, a Malinois and Dutch Shepherd. When they go at each other they both really mean business, Mali bitch ended up with a cut to her eye which was scary. Generally they do live together very well and ignore each other but we have had to make a lot of changes (no toys allowed anymore unless playing with us on a 1 to 1 basis) and have to be careful over bones as the Dutch Shepherd guards things. We wont be having another bitch for a very long time. Our boys get on really well.

You MAY have a problem in the future, or you may not. Personally I won't sell 2 pups to one household. Neither will I sell a pup to a family that have a pup at home. I had sisters (not litter sisters, 18 months apart) and for the most time they were fine, but every so often an argument would start. I ended up rehoming the youngest one.

At the moment your older bitch is boss, but at 10 years old she will not be able to sort them out for too many years to come. If you have a problem it will most likely start when she is no longer around. The sisters will be reaching full maturity at about the time you will lose the old girl.

My dogs are working dogs and work on shoots picking up, as well as rough shooting.

I would never have 2 dogs the same age.

As a breeder, I would never home 2 puppies to the same household.

As for spaying them, I would never spay a dog before it is 6 YEARS old, because current research has determined that bitches live longer if they are left intact. 

Training 1 spaniel is hard enough, let alone training 2 at once when they are bonding to each other. 

No way....

>Not getting on does not mean temperaments are bad

Absolutely - my 2 had great temperaments, the entire Cavalier was extremely tolerant of most dogs, including a very over-boisterous Staffie who once irritated us all the way round the park, this was after a different Staffie had bitten him so I'd half expected him to be unhappy about the breed. And the American cocker was and still is very tolerant, will always choose to ignore or walk away from a situation. For that matter 99% of the time they were perfectly ok with each other too - just once in a blue moon they would have a go instead!

I've kept only bitches together.

Until recently we had three.

Absolutely no problems with them, even when in season.

HOWEVER    

They are all related.    Grandmother,  Daughter and  Grand-daughter.

4 years between each and I chose the pup from the litter that would best  'fit in' .     I was lucky that the litters were so even that there was little difference between them.    I also ensured that the parents were of fantastic temperament.  

I wouldn't entertain keeping a pup with less than 2 years between them and the next in age.     And only if I could be absolutely sure of the temperament and personality.

2 pups together        absolutely not,  unless I bred them myself and there was no other option.

I do think the smaller age gaps I have in my last two pairs has made for less harmony than in the past.

I now have four that are only 16months to 6 years 10 months, that's only 5 1/2 years between youngest and oldest of those four. 

In the past that would have ben 2 1/2 - 4 years between each.

Not something I'd have the time for now but years ago, 1980 actually, as a family (mum, dad, brother & I paid a quarter each) we bought 2 terriers, brothers. They were brilliant together and we never encountered any problems. They had totally different personalities but got on great together. They would lay down facing eachother all snuggled up but then we'd sometimes find they'd been chewing each others collar !. Dear little chaps who we were lucky to have for 15 and 17 years.

I had two Dobe bitches with no probs at all. They were best of friends but - they were 2 years apart.

Not the same at all.  My friend had up to 4 dobes at a time 3 being bitches.  they got on great with my elkie girls, often taking 8 out together, and coming back to their house sharing chews and bones..

Just spotted this one and as somebody who has almost always run on, and kept, a couple of puppies from our litters, and usually bitches, I can tell you fighting to the death would be rare.   Admittedly mine is a breed that is happiest living as a pack.   Fact is whereas males fight to mate, so eventually on reaching puberty, some males might start to have fights for the position of top dog, bitches fight to survive, so provided YOU are in charge, and aware of any triggers, two sibling bitches should be able to live together without killing each other.  Yes, we had some spats, sometimes resulting in a vet repair job (ears) but nothing more than just a family spat, and usually my fault.

I doubt two bitches would actually kill without there being enough evidence of them not getting on, before it got to that.  

Most experienced breeders would prefer not to sell two sibling puppies into the same novice household however.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> fighting to the death would be rare

No not rare at all.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I doubt two bitches would actually kill without there being enough evidence of them not getting on, before it got to that.

I have 2 bitches that would kill each other given the chance and right up to the second before the fight broke out they were best friends.
I am not a "novice" owner. Bitches can and do fight to the death, mine did not simply because my son and I managed to part them. The saying "males fight for breeding rights and bitches fight for breathing rights" is very true. I have known of bitches that have indeed fought to the death, in all cases it was because there was no one there to part them. One lady told me how she walked into her house to discover her one bitch dead and the other with serious injuries. She described the scene as a blood bath.

I agree...not rare at ALL.

I've had two friends with fighting bitches within this last year, one a pair of boxers and one with two Cavaliers.

With both I've advised finding new homes for one of the pair because, in many cases, once bitches have had an all out fight they don't  kiss and make up.

Okay.   When I said it would be rare, that was obviously based on my experience with my breed who do live together happily, usually.   Plus the fact that I'm here most of the time!!!   I'd hate to live with this possibility however and when I had two males who started all this (well one because the older one didn't normally fight) I rehomed the one who was causing all this, before it got to a kill to the death.  Much as again I also know that males tend to fight to mate, and bitches to survive!!

Are there bitches out there who will kill a canine family member?   That is quite an eye-opener for me, and again I'm glad I don't have a breed where this normally happens!!   Spats yes, kill NO.

Well hound breeds are generally pack orientated. but then many terrier, guarding, fighting breeds are a different matter.

I to am used to only spats, with my sociable hunting spitz breed.  Even what look like fights (rare) are bloodless (unless an ear gets caught accidentally).