I have a 6 year old staffy and 6 weeks ago I got a shihtzu pup,they got on fine until the other day, my staff was eating her dinner the pup approached her bowl so she went for the pup,unfortunately the pup had a biscuit that she stole from my dogs bowl in her mouth and she cut her tongue, since this has happened every time I put the pup in the living room my staff puts her hackles up, but she plays with her ok but I'm unsure of her intent toward my pup, so I've been keeping them apart most of the time, does any one have any advice, I have a lemon spray collar which I used years ago for her training, but she remembers it if I get it out of the draw she gets all nervous I've been thinking of putting it back on her,I don't want to part with the pup as I love her and my staff, advice would be good, thanks Tracy x

I would never chose to have a staff I know they can be trained and some are soft as a brush but I have seen on a few occasions staffs attack other dogs, I used to own a golden retriever until he sadly passed last year due to cancer and I remember walking him once and a staff attacked him luckily he managed to get away but the owner seemed really shocked and said her staff had never been aggressive before that's why she didn't have him on a lead I have also seen a staff attack a border collie biting it's head and I was quite traumatized by it I just would always always watch them together and perhaps when leaving the house seperate them somehow I know from having a shih tzu myself they can be quite stubborn and cheeky and maybe try to wind the staff up maybe? Most shih tzus I know are very demanding.
I wish you all the best and hope you sort something out and If you don't think the two together are gonna work long term if it was me I would try and find a new home as soon as for the new puppy before he gets too settled
Good luck

The unusual part here is an adult dog going for a pup -puppies usually are accepted and allowed to get away with pretty much everything by adults, including stealing food. But then Staffies are known for not always being good around other dogs. Are they both the same sex or one of each?  I would definitely always feed them in separate rooms, and then supervise time together. Do NOT under any circumstances use the spray collar. Imagine it yourself, if you got a spray of something in your face every time you saw somebody you didn't like much, would that suddenly make you like that person? No, it would quite possibly make you dislike them even MORE.

No way, at this point, would I have allowed a new puppy to be eating where the established dog feeds.   Food is so often a trigger, and even with the best behaved adult, if a puppy tries to pile in, and she will, this can be the result.   For now, feed them separately.  Same goes for treats.   Do you use a crate because frankly unless you are right there to supervise, and ready to jump in and correct THE PUPPY, you need to be able to separate them.  Yes, they need to be together to form a bond, and yes adults don't normally attack puppies, but if pushed, they will.   Once your adult sees you are in charge, and taking control of the situation (remembering puppies won't have any respect - much as now this has happened, she may!!) the older one should start to relax and start to bond with the puppy.     Don't discipline the original dog.   Correct the puppy.   If you have two females there  every effort must be made to avoid fighting.   Males fight to mate, bitches fight to survive.   And once this happens, the way back may be difficult.   Not impossible, just difficult.   Tread carefully, and separate them (preferably using the crate so each can see the other without being together when not supervised), when you have to do other things.   For now.

If you truly feel your original dog isn't going to accept another dog in the home (and some dogs are quite simply best as single dogs), please take the new puppy back to her breeder who will most probably have another home waiting, perhaps on her next litter.   But I don't see this being necessary - yet!!

> I have a lemon spray collar which I used years ago for her training, but she remembers it if I get it out of the draw she gets all nervous

This is very worrying, I am reading it correctly?
You've trained your staffy - a breed of dog that is tenacious with a high chance of displaying inter-dog aggression, with aversive training methods (the spray collar).

You have now brought in a different breed of pup, that is the SAME sex as the adult staffy.

Staffy has attacked pup and is raising hackles at the sight of the pup when NOT around food.

Marianne,

This is something I have been thinking about for a long time. I'm beginning to think that where a group of dogs have lived together for some time and pups are whelped by a bitch that is part of that group then the pups will get puppy license. Also if a pup comes into a household where a bitch is present who has had pups, or  there is a bitch or dog that is very gentle by nature, the pup will get lots of leeway, however I'm beginning to think that where dogs are not of the same family or breed type that puppy license does not necessarily hold.

I know many will strongly disagree but I do see dogs of both sexes that simply do not like pups and most certainly do not naturally give them leeway and these have been well socialised etc... I'm not sure that there is necessarily something wrong with the dog that reacts. Where dogs are raised together there is more likely to be a natural order, but if pups are introduced to a new dog household, especially of a very different breed perhaps that 'natural' order does not hold.

In the case of the poster I would not leave the pup unsupervised with the staff and certainly not around resources like food/treats and favourite toys. Your staff already has negative feelings about the pup, do not increase that by using punishment (spray collar). All that will do is cause your staff to associate the pup with threat and that way disaster lies. I think you need advice from a professional in terms of building a positive relationship between your staff and the pup and an assessment to see if this is possible.

I just wanted to add this article http://www.clickertraining.com/node/4037

Dogs are different and you cannot assume that your pup and your dog will become mates. Your staff is already indicating a high level of discomfort around your pup and being a terrier if she gets really riled she may go all out. Remember that irritation can build and build until the dog snaps and you may then have full aggression.

Again, I think you need some help with this and it may be that this pup is not right for you at the moment.

I don't think you will  be very popular on this site with the staffie breeders. You are labelling certain breeds with being the only dogs that attack other dogs. I have seen many different breeds set on other dogs. Most dogs would not tolerate another going near their food bowl.

I'm beginning to think that where a group of dogs have lived together for some time and pups are whelped by a bitch that is part of that group then the pups will get puppy license. Also if a pup comes into a household where a bitch is present who has had pups, or  there is a bitch or dog that is very gentle by nature, the pup will get lots of leeway, however I'm beginning to think that where dogs are not of the same family or breed type that puppy license does not necessarily hold.

It hasn't been my experience. I have my dogs in two separate groups due to those that do not get on. In September 2012 I bought a new Malinois puppy. She joined the group that consists of Ripley, her granny, who then was 12 -obviously she has had pups. Also Rona, her cousin, then aged almost 2, who has NOT had pups, plus an assortment of Papillons and one Cavalier, varying ages, sexes, neutered or not etc. Everyone treated the puppy the same, she literally could get away with murder. I did notice a difference in that the bitches that had had pups of their own mothered her -in particular one Papillon! (That was hilarious to watch.) But I guess as with everything else, there are exceptions. I do know though that each and every time we have a puppy, my husband worries about introducing it to the other dogs, I shrug it off and say it will be fine BEACAUSE it is a puppy, and after  a short while he always says I was right once again. It's almost become a ritual in that he worries about pups and I do not.

I worried about how my adult who has been on her own in the house for 8 years would respond to a pup being brought in.  She is a food guarder and one day the pup had the audacity to put his head in her food bowl.  Meg gave him a right telling off and he hasn't done it since.  She was really nasty with him.  She also tells him off if he touches her when she is sleeping.  The rest of the time she tolerates him and he respects her space although will push the boundaries now and then.  She has growled at him to remind him of his manners before now but I then they are both collies. 

Yes you have got it totally wrong,!!! My staff is a gentle dog every one falls in love with her, she's gentle and would never harm a dog or pup, my partner who has stml short term memory loss forgot Kim is possessive with food and put the bowl down, Kim did NOT ATTACK. The pup she just snapped at her, puppy got scared,the pup had no marks or wet bit on her fur, there was no contact by Kim it was all noise, if anything I reacted in the wrong way,the  pups mother she would have told her off in the same way, so yes ur getting this all wrong, the hackles bit I've read up on and it is a sign of Kim being insecure, probley because I told Kim of after the incident, she has never been aggressive toward any dog or human, JUST TO PUT THAT STRAIGHT, SHE IS NOT A VICIOUS DOG

Marianne, do you think that because you have a number of bitches that have had pups themselves it informs their behaviour and also influences the way the rest of the groups behave? I'm thinking that bitches and obviously dogs with no experience of rearing pups and without the influence of a maternal bitch might not be so welcoming or sure how to cope with an incomer pup, possibly of a different breed.

Hi, they really do get on so well and have done for the last 7 weeks, I think if she didn't get on with it would have showed much earlier, it was one incident where she snapped I never feed them together I have a crate for the pup which she sleeps in when she's tired, one person on here is making out she's a vicious dog when in fact she's a loving gentle dog,and loves puppy's and other dogs,I've got a clicker which I shall start using for the pup, thanks for the advice x

>probley because I told Kim of after the incident

I agree with others.  It was a big mistake to correct the Staffie bitch.  And spray collars are downright cruel.

Staffys DO get on with other breeds, I know a lot of people that have staffys and chi in the same house and the same sex,she is NOT AGGRESSIVE,Kim is an EXELANT example of a staff, she obedient, gentle, loves people, and gets on with all dogs she meets over the park, why do people always say staffs are vishious when they are the most loyal dog to own, I used a spray collar on her once for running away, never needed to use it again,she walks at my side, she is a very happy dog and loves every one, 

EXCUSE ME I'm not the one portraying staffs as vishious it one other person saying that, they obviously haven't read my post propley, she mearly corrected the pup, not attack her,she's the most gentle dog I've ever had, read my post again, like I said they still play well but she has her hackles slightly raised, I've since read this DOSNT Always mean they are going to attack, it's sometimes means insecurity, or unsure, Kim's being one of the last 2 or she wouldn't even play with her, she put her hackles up when she s cold also, and she's not going to attack the cold is she now

> EXCUSE ME I'm not the one portraying staffs as vishious it one other person saying that, they obviously haven't read my post propley, she mearly corrected the pup, not attack her,she's the most gentle dog I've ever had, read my post again, like I said they still play well but she has her hackles slightly raised, I've since read this DOSNT Always mean they are going to attack, it's sometimes means insecurity, or unsure, Kim's being one of the last 2 or she wouldn't even play with her, she put her hackles up when she s cold also, and she's not going to attack the cold is she now

I mean no offence - but if you have worked out that's why she's doing it, why are you asking for further advice here, and not taking on board what others have suggested?

Kim,

I think that people like myself are simply concerned for you and your pup and from what you said in your first post the gut reaction is to warn you to be careful. It does sound as though you are doing the right things and you have taken that one incident on board.

I don't think anyone has suggested staffs are vicious. Any breed can produce a dog with issues. Staffs have a long fuse for a terrier but if they are provoked and go they are truly formidable and that terrier tenacity can kick in and of course they are so powerful. There are respected staff sites that tell you that they may not be as tolerant of other dogs as some other breeds- though always reliable with people and children. Please understand that the aim on here is to help not to attack...however, sometimes the advice is blunt and to the point, and in that sense may seem critical.

The other thing is that it is so hard from one post to judge the situation and know all the factors.

I wish you luck with your pup.

Hi, thankyou very much for ur reply, I do understand the way staffs CAN be but this incident was so not Kim, like I said she's a gentle dog with people, children,dogs, and puppies, I know she is only teaching the pup manners, it was unfortunate the pup got scared, I know her only downfall is she's a greedy dog when it comes to food,I think I'm the one that panicked as well and probley wrote the whole thing wrong, I'm new to this site,,, I was hoping for advice NOT critisum,and it seemed to me that people were damming the breed as not being able to live with other dogs,which I know is total rubbish,like I say I know loads of people that have staffs with chi ect, Kim has never had a litter as I feel there is enough unwanted staffs in this cruel world and she's such a loving dog that I thought the next best thing to having a pup is getting a pup from a breeder for her to mother, guess she's a lot to learn also, Kim's 6 years old and has never showed aggression toward any body or anything, oh maybe a carrier bag that flew in my garden once got her barking mad lol, xx

Marianne, do you think that because you have a number of bitches that have had pups themselves it informs their behaviour and also influences the way the rest of the groups behave?

It's possible I suppose. It's only 11 years since I had my first litter though and so during many years before that I often introduced puppies to existing dogs and not infrequently of an entirely different breed as over the years, before I started seriously showing (I showed but perhaps 4-5 times a year only), I have had crossbreeds, Goldens, Cavaliers, Border Collies, a Cocker Spaniel etc. There was one time  that I did have a problem with a new pup, but that was the one time only. I had two Goldens -one veteran dog and a young bitch, both entire - and one Cavalier, young entire dog, and if I remember correctly also an elderly spayed crossbreed bitch, and then bought another Golden puppy. The Golden bitch went for the new pup, with serious intent, to the point of drawing blood and causing injuries -and the pup hadn't even done anything, had not tried to take food or toys, just wanted to be friends. That bitch though had always had somewhat dodgy temperament and this was the last straw for me so she ended up going back to her breeder where she was fine (they kept her) but also was the youngest of their dogs.

>The Golden bitch went for the new pup, with serious intent, to the point of drawing blood and causing injuries -and the pup hadn't even done anything, had not tried to take food or toys, just wanted to be friends. That bitch though had always had somewhat dodgy temperament and this was the last straw for me so she ended up going back to her breeder where she was fine (they kept her) but also was the youngest of their dogs.

My last Golden also had a dodgy temperament towards other dogs and disliked puppies intently and would tell them off severely if they came anywhere near her. I never gave her the oppourtunity to find out if it would go any further then a lot of noise and chasing away, but it was aware of her temperament problems and made a decision not to have another dog whilst she was alive. When researching for my current pup I actively avoided any using the same line as the last dog as, it seems, there appears to be still the same temperament issue in that line.

Back to the subject.
Some years ago I bought a new pup into the household containing a year old dog (same breed). Generally there were no problems especially given the age of the older dog who wasn't much more then a pup herself, apart from food. The older dog was a friendly harmless soul, but loved her food and the one and only she growled and snapped at the puppy was when it stuck its head into her food bowl. The pup rushed off squealing like it had been savagely attacked, but the pup learned to steer clear and peace and harmony was permanently restored.

I must say when I brought Daisy home ( SBT ) and introduced her to the then three year old Spud ( SBT ) , he couldn't have been nicer to her, but I was very careful to allow Spud his space from her at those times of day that were important to him and avoided any conflict over resource guarding.
I only had problems with my friends Staffie bitch who actually bit Daisy on the muzzle whilst Daisy was eating her own food whilst visiting at my friends, she was lightning quick about it too and had snuck from behind me and got past my guard.
My friends other male Staffie who was also Spuds brother was never a problem either.

I think that there is research to suggest that one element may be how strict each dog's own mother was. That is pups with mums who were vigorous in disciplining them will carry that over into their adult behaviour, whereas dogs that had more laid back mums- more inclined to move away and ignore a pesky pup as opposed to telling off with muzzle butts and air snaps, are also more tolerant.

That said, all dogs are individuals and some have a much stronger sense of boundaries and a need for space.

> why do people always say staffs are vishious when they are the most loyal dog to own

Nobody here is assuming staffs are vicious, however, as the breed was developed for dog-fighting, it is safe to assume that inter-dog aggression is higher in this breed than in a non dog-fighting breed, that's kind of the whole point of a pure-bred dog - you can predict what their behavior will/should be like.
Even a staffy that is well socialised with other dogs, if a perfect example of the breed, should be bold, fearless and tenacious, not a patient pacifist with other dogs.

I am sorry if I miss interpreted your origonal post, but that is why I asked what you meant. You said your staffy 'went for' the pup and the pup ended up with a cut to the tongue, and that you don't know what your staffies intentions towards the pup are, that is a lot different than your staffy giving a non-contact warning snap and the pup not being injured.

How did the pup injure her tongue?

If your staffy is friendly towards the pup, why are you keeping them apart?

Just as a wagging tail does not = happy dog, hackles raised does not = frightened dog. Hackles raised is a sign of arousal, which can be from different things - excitement, fear, nerves, agression - anything that can cause the adrenalin to rise, to interpret what the raised hackles are saying, you need to read the entire body and situation.

If your staffy is raising her hackles when the pup enters the living room, it could mean many different things, including:
she is warning the pup to keep out
she is excited and wants to play
she's feeling aggressive towards your pup,
she is nervous

3 out of those 4  possibilities can result in your pup getting bitten/attacked/told off, that is nothing to do with any dog being 'vicious', it's to do with dog behaviour. ANY dog will behave 'aggressively' if/when it feels it needs to, the point at which any dog will feel the need to be 'aggressive' will depend on many things, but feeling the need to protect a living space, nerves/fear and an instinct to fight other dogs are all very strong reasons to make a dog act 'aggressively'.

Please don't think that a 'nervous' dog is a safe dog, they most certainly are not. A nervous dog is more likely to feel under threat, so is more likely to feel like it has to do something about the perceived situation.

Here we come to the aversive training. The spray collar only works if the dog is frightened of it, in other words you put your dog into a state of FEAR to 'control' it - what happens in a fearfull dog? - they are more likely to feel the need to do something about feeling threatened.

As I bred Spud and his brother, I can say without a doubt, their dam was very tolerant of them, and I really can't remember her ever disciplining them, even when Spud and his brother were obnoxious teens, she would just remove herself from their company.
Spud in general was a very easy going lad, but I would never in a million years say he wouldn't hurt a fly, he was an SBT, and you have to respect that, expecting them to not display the tendencies of their genetics is just asking for trouble imo, and unfair on the dog.

> I know she is only teaching the pup manners

I'd say this was your job - not hers.  Some adult dogs are wary of puppies and this anxiety can provoke an unexpected response.  You can and should block your pup from approaching the other dogs bowl but there are good strategies to ensure there is no time or opportunity to do so. 

With regards to eating I like my dogs to eat side by side but I never leave them alone to do so until they are all well into adulthood.  Choose a feeding position some distance apart and don't vary it, try and ensure both dogs finish eating at a similar time so put the bowl of the slowest eater down first if you can.  If one dog finishes long before the other then keep them at their own bowl by dropping biscuits into their bowl. Stay in the room and stand between the dogs until they have both finished then pick up the bowls immediately.  Give a verbal indicator to signal the 'end'.  I say "all done" as I collect the bowls.  IF I were to see any of the dogs getting a bit concerned about me picking up their empty bowls I'd offer a treat from one hand, whilst I picked up the bowl in the other.  As soon as meal time is over take them outside - this prevents one or other getting edgy about the other walking past or near their feeding station (some dogs may stay alert until all signs of food and feeding have been removed so a trip outside is enough to break their concentration and distract them).

It doesn't sound as though it were a major issue this time but do take it as a warning - which is clearly what your adult dog intended - and let both your dogs know that you will be in charge of food and they needn't worry that anyone is going to poke their nose in the others bowl or steal anything.  Additionally you should work to give your adult dog safe spaces where she can go without fear of the pup bimbling into her or encroaching on her perceived territory.  Use gates and doors to give exit routes and allow your adult to choose to retreat whenever she likes.  One of mine liked to know the pup was out of the way before he'd relax and go to sleep properly in the evening and he was much happier when they were divided by a gate!

That has been an interesting post, dogs a babe. I've mainly had one dog at a time part from twelve years when there was two. Given their breed they were very laid back with each other, apart from the one occasion the older dog laid down the law over food as mentioned above. I initially fed the dogs separately until the puppy was older and then gradually moved their bowls closer to each other until they were eating side by side. If one finished first they had different strategies as to what to do next whilst waiting for the other one to finish. The older dog hung over the younger dog waiting, younger dog ignored her and carried on at her own pace. If younger dog finished first, she would retreat a bit and watch carefully. Once both dogs were finished they swapped bowls and licked every last trace,then they would swap back just to check and make absolutely sure all was gone. If there was anything left on their muzzles they would give each other a quick flick round with the tongue. When they were both sitting waiting to be given their food, they would always sit the same way round, older dog on the left younger dog on the right. The whole palaver was quite amusing.

Hello,,the pups tounge got cut because she had a biscute in her mouth which she stole out of Kim's bowl and when Kim snapped at her she got frightened and bit her own tounge, in 6 weeks this is the first time Kim had reprimanded her so I think the pup was shocked and scared by this, Kim has played a bit rough on. 2 occasions while  playing and made the pup yelp but both times she went straight up to the pup to lick her and check her, then they both carry on playing, she is mostly very gentle while playing she knows crystal is a pup,Kim is a very intelligent dog, she is not a nervous dog, she is a dog that can pick up on ur mood,I,e she knows when I'm upset or scared,also when I cry,laugh ect,I think maybe she can sence that I'm now worried. I have had the pup back in the living room since that incident she does play, but I've decided that if I can't get rid of my fear I will have no choice other that to re home the pup after Christmas , I will not re home her this side of Christmas for reasons you must understand, thank you very much for your comments, I'm sorry I misunderstood your last comments, 😔 x

You've already had plenty of good advice, particularly with regards to that darn spray collar. ;-)

I won't repeat the advice already given re: feeding apart from to say I always stand in the kitchen at feeding times any pups or dogs who may wish to muzzle their way towards anothers feeding bowl find my legs in the way and a pup is moved back to its own bowl, never had any food guarding in my home because there is never any threat of food ever being taken, only added. :-)

The worry is the raised hackles in the living room, your Staff is perfectly within her rights to chastise your pup in play and to calm her behaviour, but she should not be showing these signs at the sight of her, unless you have missed something out and the pup was jumping all over her and nipping, pulling her, perfectly understand the raised hackles then as some adult dogs really do not enjoy puppy play or they do not enjoy it for too long. She should be able to escape the pup at any time.

You have to remember that different breeds play in different ways also, so even without these incidents play would need to be closely  monitored and supervised. Also remember they do not need to be the best of friends or even tolerant of each other to start with, it can take months for some adult dogs to fully accept a pup, pups can be a royal pain in the bum to some adult dogs, they just have no tolerance for them, to others they will mother and adore them straight away and give that complete and full puppy license, allowing any behviours until old enough to chastise.

It could well be that the cute pup your Staff first welcomed is now the 'food stealer' and she does not rest so easy with her, also needing the odd nip to stop her from causing irritation, I would just accept that you need to take things very slowly and not expect too much, vigilantly watch all body language and remove the pup if things worry you. And of course you are right all dogs can sense any chemical changes to our bodies thus understanding our mood changes from fear, anger, worry etc, so you need to keep upbeat when the pup is around, otherwise she may perceive that you also are wary of this little bundle of mischief. :-)

There is that worry of course of bitch on bitch aggression rearing its ugly head as she matures, (which some have raised) it does happen in all breeds,  you say she is a well rounded Staff with a good nature towards other dogs, I have not doubt that she is...... however, in the home, living and sharing territory with another bitch can be a completely different scenario to meeting and greeting other dogs outside or in the home for a short while, sometimes one bitch just cannot tolerate another, although it generally does not happen at this age it would be very rare, usually around adolescence is when this occurs.

Hopefully, they will grow to be extremely close and your Staff will be a good solid role model for her, leaving these first niggles a thing of the past, just stay vigilant, you really need to stay on top of things here and make the right judgement calls as has already been said, remove the pup, not your older girl, make sure you are the authority figure here and as has already been said. I hope that things work out. :-)

Thank you very much carrington, I have now put a gate up in the living room and only having the pup in for short periods of time so the pup don't anoy Kim,so Kim is getting more restbite from puppy, I'm using a clicker for the Puppy and inforsing  the word no to her,I am totally vigilant whilst they are together,, Kim is now fed in the kitchen with the door shut, , thank you very much for your valued information, x