We have always owned German Shepherds in the past but being older now would like something smaller. I  love both a Japanese Spitz and the Shetland Sheepdog. Can anyone help with the decision.

I had a Sheltie when I was a child. Have to say that the Shelties of today seem a lot smaller (and yappier). He was a lovely dog, very loyal and clever and a joy to have as a companion.

The only thing concerning me is they are said to be very vocal and not used to this in a dog. Is it something that they do all the time?

I can't really comment on today's Shelties apart from the few I have come across that were barking a lot. Having said that, there is one that lives up the road and I don't think I have heard him bark. He was one that was kept on at the breeders, but it came apparent that he was going to grow too big (he still doesn't seem to be very big to me) so they decided not to keep him and he was sold to my neighbour. She did comment that when she went to see him it was a noisy household, but he is very quiet for some reason. He's a very sweet natured dog.
I'm 62 and I had my Sheltie when I was 8, so a long time ago, he wasn't particularly noisy.

I think the answer is to see more of both. There are not a lot of breeders of either dog in the north west, so will go to a couple of shows to get more of an idea. There is no rush, I am hoping to do it in the spring. I was enamoured of the Cavalier King Charles until I saw all the health problems. I would think that some of the better breeders don't need to advertise so if anyone can recommend shetland sheepdog breeders I would be grateful for a pm.

I have some friends with Shelties and I don't think any of them are overly vocal, certainly I would say the spitz is a more vocal type. Cavaliers do have health problems but if you can find a breeder that has done all the relevant tests (hearts, eyes, Curly Coat / Dry Eye / Episodic Falling and of course scan for CM/SM status) then you give yourself the best chance of getting a healthy one. I have a 9 year old with a clear heart here who still bounds around in the ring like a youngster! Mind you anyone who's heard my 2 year old when I leave her in the crate and go to show the other one would have to admit they can be vocal when they don't get their own way too!!

I agree all dogs can be vocal at times but I was referring to the everyday talking to you, not barking or crying. If you trawl the descriptions of the small breeds, they all seem to have their faults. I think it's just the faults you can cope with. With our Shepherds it was not a worry about sensitivity. My husband quite liked the idea of a minature poodle for their intelligence, being used to this, but I have read that they are very sensitive and can't cope with noisy households. We do live a very quiet life generally but now and again all the family can descend and a party atmosphere could be too much I am thinking.

My sister is onto her second Sheltie and both have been very vocal and sensitive, both have been from the same breeder though, who I later found out did breed overly sensitive dogs, so I guess as with all breeds, do the research, and I'm sure you'll find the dog for you. :)

One of my in-laws has a Japanese Spitz, fantastic dog, whom I haven't known to be yappy, but I've only met the one. ;-) I certainly would favour the Spitz, must admit as I was brought up with Rough Collies (whom I absolutely adore) because the Sheltie is so similar in looks I used to be very taken with them, but boy the barking is just too much, everyone I've met has been a yapper, and it is in their breed description too, depends where you live I guess, but it all needs factoring in. :-)

Training (or lack of) and numbers will also factor into this.

I have 6 of a Spitz breed that can be vocal if not discouraged from unnecessary barking.

I like to think that mine have been taught to be very moderate with the amount of barking they are allowed to get away with.

I live in a suburban 3 bedroom house with a 25 foot wide by 60 foot long garden so can't afford to let them be noisy.

I too had shelties inbetween and after my alsatians and collies. None of them had any need to bark. It is really down to their training.  I loved my shelties but I do prefer larger size dogs.  Think carefully before committing yourself. When my sheltie died last year I considered a german shepherd but they are not like alsatians.  I now have a smooth collie.  Right size, right coat and prone to barking when other collies visit the neighbours but other than that really quiet.

How is a cavalier able to cope with a bit of noise? We have no young children in the family, they are all grown up now but my daughter has a boisterous Golden Retriever and my granddaughter has a boisterous Labrador. They are frequent visitors, how would a cavy cope with this?

lkj just wondered about your comment that gsd are not like Alsatians ? I have a gsd/Alsatian  they are the same breed just different name Alsatian being the old name.
What did you mean ? 

How is a cavalier able to cope with a bit of noise?

Cav's are not nervous dogs or at least they shouldn't be, had plenty of CKCS in our family they are gentle and should enjoy being with other dogs and people, but they are not supposed to be noise nervous, or a nervous breed.... they are bred to be gundogs that should say it all really as to their sound temperaments. :-) I don't know why you think them to be of a nervous disposition they are not, unless reared very badly and made to be afraid. (Puppyfarmers come to mind, but that would affect any breed)

They would always be my choice of a first time breed as they are so easy to be around, as to your daughter having a boisterous GR and a boisterous Lab too, (I take it both are still not fully mature as they should have calmed some by now)  care should always be taken around breeds of different sizes as one could hurt the other, but Cav's, go well with most other breeds as they are easy going. :-)

ETA, that is as long as they have come from a good reputable breeder, plenty of healthy lines of CKCS about, just do your research. :-)

The Golden Retriever is 7 and is mostly calm these days but the Lab is only 2 so still very puppyish. Sounds like a Cav is the one for me. Just need to be extra vigilant on the right breeder. I am prepared to wait for the right one, I bet all the good ones have waiting lists. Any help with recommendations would be greatly appreciated on a pm.

Sorry I am in the North West of England, I forgot to add.

>How is a cavalier able to cope with a bit of noise? We have no young children in the family, they are all grown up now but my daughter has a boisterous Golden Retriever and my granddaughter has a boisterous Labrador. They are frequent visitors, how would a cavy cope with this?

The breed description reads something like 'bold and fearless' for the temperament. One of my breed books says they will stand in front of an oncoming juggernaut wagging their tails, and certainly most of mine are pretty much like that! I have had a couple that lack all sense of self preservation, and a couple with some common sense. A properly bred and socialised Cavalier will do something between flinging himself into the group and probably beating up the Lab and the Goldie, to at worst just backing off slightly but still wagging his tail. Of course you have to be a little careful at first as the 2 big dogs are fully grown and a 10 week Cavalier will be pretty tiny, you don't want them traumatised by too much rough play! But most big dogs, even boisterous ones, can easily learn to adjust their play to suit a smaller one.

ETA there are certainly some good breeders up your way, don't know who has puppies expected though, have a look on the Club website and the puppy register contact for your area will let you know, then it's up to you to make sure that the breeders have done all the health tests. I was unlucky with my first Cav and lost him at 8 years even though the breeder had done all the right things, but I still wouldn't want any other breed!

hello furryfriends, the alsations we had from the 40's to the 80's were straight backed with short hair and thick undercoat.  They still bred them until about the 80's.  Then they were bred with a sloping back and the name changed to german shepherd.

I have 5 Japanese spitz ,they can be noisey when guests arrive, door goes etc but they are incredibly loving and where you go they follow so hate been left for long periods. They are comical as well as beautiful but do moult once per year for dogs and twice for bitches but is does not dig onto everything like lab fur but just floats on surfaces.the barking is not so bad with one on their own or two it tends to be worse when you have a handful but is only really when they have a reason to.

hello furryfriends, the alsations we had from the 40's to the 80's were straight backed with short hair and thick undercoat.  They still bred them until about the 80's.  Then they were bred with a sloping back and the name changed to german shepherd.

Really ?? I thought the breed was always known as German Shepherd Dog(or more correctly Deutsche Schäferhund)it was the English KC that thought that the breed might be attacked after WWI for being German so opted it to call the breed Alsatian Wolfdog(German Shepherd Dog)as some had been captured from the Germans in Alsace Lorraine & they had ears like a wolf-the Wolfdog being dropped very quickly as the public thought they were Wolf crosses & eventually the AGM of the KC members voted to change the name to German Shepherd Dog(Alsatian)& have now dropped the totally erroneous Alsatian altogether.

I could be wrong of course, was the breed English to start with & exported to Germany in the past & then back again ? But then why would they be called Alsatian indicating they had connections with Alsace Lorraine which has on occassion been in either France & Germany & is currently part of France I believe ?

The dogs of the 1940s, 1950s did not have the best of characters, had problems with epilepsy & fear aggression if Nem Elliott's books covering this period are to be believed & as she was one of the foremost in the breed at that time there is no reason to doubt her writing. Of course as you have owned the breed(I have not)your recollections maybe better than Nem Elliotts

Tomee I agree with you it the same breed what its conformation is part of along running discussion between breeder All in all it is one and the same mine is longhaired straight back again one that isn't always popular to all but certainly is still a gsd or previously Alsatian

Tommie, you are exactly right.

The German Shepherd is the original name for the breed . It was changed due to the war, I couldn't tell you with certainty if it was the first or second, but definitely one of them! It's thought the breed would suffer due to its name so it was changed to the area the breed originated hence, Alsatian.

It's now reverted back to German Shepherd to most, although some still use Alsatian, but they are the same breed.

According to the books I have read(thanks to the library)the breed was orginally from the central parts of Germany(Thuringia,Franconia,Württemberg)  not the south & Alsace Lorraine was the area in which during the WWI handlers & dogs had been captured by the Allies, which was why the name was used as in 1918 Alsace Lorraine was part of France & not Germany. Hence the name was to indicate that the dogs were French & not German.

I own and breed Shetland sheepdogs, although relatively new to the breed I've owned them for a few years now and have good friends who've owned them for generations. I love them a lot, a year ago I introduced a Chihuahua into our doggy family with our Shelties and have to say our Chihuahua made me realize just how different Shelties are! I owned an elderly rescue GSD until last year when she passed away and she was always "easier" but I thought that was due to her age.

Our Shelties let me know when the post man is here, when visitors are here, when fire works go off ect. 2 of mine are very vocal, the other is quiet unless someone visits. However what they lack in quietness they make up for with their intelligence and loyalty. I have to say mine are quite independent unless I have food, they will do anything for food.

The pros outweigh the cons for me with Shelties, although I'd like to not have to buy a new vacuum nearly every year due to the hair. They keep me very busy and are great to train with, very active and beautiful. 

Our shepherds were long coated, so know all about copious moulting but the long coats make them so beautiful and makes up for the hard work. I would never have said that they were easy and that is why were looking for a softer breed. It will be good taking a dog for a walk that not everyone is scared of. They were as daft as a brush with people but Jo Public see them as enemy no1

That has it's advantages you know :)

I walk my Elkhounds late at night, and because to a casual observer they have shepherd heads people assume they are 'more' than they are.

> I walk my Elkhounds late at night, and because to a casual observer they have shepherd heads people assume they are 'more' than they are.

Oh yes I'd disregard what People think... apparently smaller Spitz type breeds such as Norwegian Buhunds are all Huskies.

I totally understand where you are coming form with the gsd thing. Mine is a solid black longhair joe public are usually scared stiff. Now walking my naughty noisy pomx they just laugh at her