Do the KC just lift them even with a contract signed in place

No -and only the breeder (or person who placed them initially) can request for them to be lifted.

The KC can lift the endorsements if the dog has been sold on & the new owner was not made aware of the endorsements-I think

No that is not so, only if it's the first owner that the dog has been sold to.  The person putting the endorsement is required to have new owner sign they are aware.

It's all explained in this leaflet and if you read all the way through you will see that an endorsement will stay in place even if the dog is sold on to a third party who was not aware of it:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf


3. If the new registered owner of a dog did not have notice of the endorsement, that person may apply to the General Committee of the Kennel Club who will resolve in their discretion whether or not the endorsement should lapse. Any endorsement may be lifted only with the permission in writing of the endorser or of a person with due authority from the endorser (in the event the endorser cannot give permission due to death or incapacity) or by resolution of the General Committee.

4. Regulation B12b 1), 2) and 3) only apply where the registered owner who originally placed an endorsement on a dogs record, transfers the dog to a new ownership. If subsequent transfers take place, the endorsement becomes a matter between the parties involved. In such cases the registered owner placing the endorsement shall not be responsible if notification of the endorsement is not given to any new owner, and may exercise his right to decide whether the endorsement be maintained or removed subject to (5) below.

5. The General Committee reserves the right to impose, remove or maintain any endorsement.  In particular, the General Committee reserves the right to impose an additional endorsement "not eligible for entry in any event held under Kennel Club Rules and regulations, nor any unlicensed event recognised by the Kennel
Club".

So the KC GC can remove the endorsement if they so decide ?

So the KC GC can remove the endorsement if they so decide ?

Yes, but why would they? The rule is just there to cover all eventualities. After all, on the same line they say they also have the right to ADD endorsements, to stop a dog from being shown or bred from. Which is a jolly good thing really, as it is the sort of thing done after a dog has been found guilty of for instance biting a judge.

You have to make the new owner aware (I think best in writing, so as part of the sale contract?) of any endorsements on the puppy they are buying.   Otherwise if you haven't then the new owner can, I believe, approach the KC to have the endorsment(s) lifted, by them.   As all my immature stock went on non-breeding endorsements (other than the two I sold to a fellow breeder - WRONG!), to protect my bloodlines and breed, I'd be very annoyed to find the KC had over-ruled this endorsement especially.

As long as the person who puts the endorsement on the dog (doesn't have to be the breeder but the owner of a dog who is at the time the endorsement is placed in their physical ownership) has a signature from the new owner they transfer the dog to the endorsement will stand. 

If that new owner passes the dog on and doesn't inform the next owner, the endorsement will still stand.

I never part with my dogs, but if I did, I could put a breeding endorsement on a dog I was re-homing, whether I bred it or not, or whether it had already been bred from.

The problem with endorsements (non-breeding) is the ONLY thing this endorsement means is any offspring from an endorsed animal can't be registered with the KC.   Sadly it does not mean the dogs can't be bred!!

well yes that's obvious, but that's sadly all we can do, potentially devalue any offspring that are not eligible for registration.

I am disputing the endorsement of:  Progeny not eligible for registration.
The reasons for why I am disputing this are after owning the dog for over a year it has come apparent that he has now produced a litter of his own with our other family dog which as you can imagine came as a surprise to us.
However the litter is now 4 weeks old and we have tried to register them. Upon entering details into my account on the MyKc it had shown of the above endorsement.
This had come as bit of shock to us as we were not aware of such thing, also with this being my first purchase of a dog that Miss X was aware I feel as she is an experienced breeder as she informed us, she should of passed on relevant information.
After reading the PDF file "Kennel Club Endorsements" found on your website about endorsements we were shocked to see the following criteria  had not been followed via the original breeder of my dog.

"In order to comply with the Kennel Club rules on placing endorsements, the KC requires that the dog be in the physical possession of the endorser and that they obtain a written agreement, ideally in the form of a private contract, signed by the new owner to acknowledge that they have been informed that an endorsement has been placed. If endorsements are being used, it is helpful to both parties if the contract mentions why these have been placed and under what conditions they would be removed (if at all). This contract must be signed and dated by the purchaser showing that they have been informed of the endorsement prior to or at the date of sale. Even if the breeder chooses not to draw up a full contract, there must still be a document stating which endorsements have been placed, signed by the purchaser."

Carefully looking through my dogs paperwork and upon the purchase of the dog none of this relevant information was passed on to myself. I was not also not entered into a written contract with the breeder nor was I given a contract or informed of these endorsements or a document stating that these endorsements where in place with my signature upon it.

After a phone call with yourselves this afternoon we were passed on the information to contact the breeder and make arrangements for this to be lifted.
following on from this contact was made with Miss X to which she was evasive about the situation.
When she was asked about the endorsement she had said that the contract was inside with my relevant paperwork when I had shown her the paperwork available about the said dog, her reply was the endorsement was put in place for a reason. I then followed with but why wasn't I made aware of this when purchasing the dog, and is there any health problems I should of been made aware of at the time of purchase. She then carefully studied the paperwork and said "No I remember now, he was one of the good ones" .

  This within itself makes me question the reason why for the endorsement. Have I not been informed of any health issues with the mother of my   dog???
Furthering on the conversation I asked Miss X for a copy of the contract to which I had APPARENTLY signed, or a copy of what would of been sent to yourselves from the breeder. Miss X failed to produce a copy of the contract and clearly stated that it doesn't matter as I am the only one to lift the endorsement. After further reading you PDF file on the subject in section  Regulation B12 b) 1 and 2, where also not followed from the breeder to myself the purchaser.
  This has also upset and annoyed me as there was no verbal communication between myself and Miss X upon seeing the dog and purchasing the dog. I also feel mis-lead by the purchase of the dog and if I was made aware of such an endorsement had it been explained I would not of carried out the purchase.
    With regards to the litter that has been produced both myself and the owner of the bitch (my partner) have carried out all health checks that were needed, followed all correct procedures for welping the bitch and took ownership for the upkeep and the protection of the litter. However the one thing both my partner and I have agreed is to register the litter with yourselves for future protection of this breed as we are all aware inter-breeding of the King Charles Cavaliers produce poor pups. I believe myself and my partner have acted responsible for the unexpected production of the litter.

I wish for this endorsement to be lifted as I have been hoodwinked by  Miss X and can not see an amicable solution to the situation with herself.

CAN ANYONE HELP ME WITH AND OR HAVE ANY ADVICE THIS ????? THIS WAS PART OF LETTER I SENT THE KC

Thorwarrior

Does your litter fit the health test criteria for your breed, are the dam and sire a good match, have either been independently assessed for quality (shown for instance), and are they within the age range as dictated by your breed club.  If not I wouldn't lift the endorsement for your accidental litter and I'm not sure any reputable breeder would. 

Your breeder should have informed you of the endorsements at time of purchase but they are clearly written on the Reg Docs which you presumably were given to register your dog.  Endorsements are to be expected in any KC registered dog...

Incidentally you can check the health results of any KC registered dog so you can look at your dogs parents and siblings.

Sorry ThorWarrior but endorsements are in place EXACTLY to prevent people like yourself from registering puppies.  You had an accidental mating, but did not take the bitch to the vet to have an Alizin injection?  You had an MyKC account but didn't spot the fact that it under your bitch's details will have said she was endorsed? Just as it is printed on her registration certificate. Have you even shown the dog and the bitch to prove they are good enough to be bred from?

"Inter breeding" means breeding two dogs of different breeds together. INBREEDING however (the mating together of close relatives) does not produce poor pups, it only strengthens what there is -be it good or bad. You say you have had both parents health tested -does that include MRI scanning? Are both parents aged at least 2 ½ and heart clear with all four grandparents aged at least 5 and heart clear? Will you endorse all the pups you sell?

It's a shame the breeder of your bitch didn't ensure the endorsement was pointed out to you as that is vital, but endorsements are NOT just there to prevent unhealthy dogs being bred from. Nor does it mean the parents were unhealthy! If anything it is a sign of a GOOD breeder. They are there to prevent the pups being bred from unless health tested with good results, shown or worked with good results to prove they are good examples of their breed and have genes actually worth passing on, and are being bred by people who are able to cope with a litter, will be able to advice their own puppy buyers on a number of subjects etc,  -far from everyone is cut out to be a breeder.

Although there is a requirement of the breeder to advise, within the Sale Contract ideally, a new owner of any endorsements on the puppy they are buying at the time of sale, I can only agree with what Goldmali has written.   Again, my puppies always went with non-breeding endorsements, other than two I sold to a fellow breeder (how I WISH they had been endorsed too, but that's another sad story) as would always be the case with immature stock.   And this endorsement was there for good reason - although a puppy of my breed, slow maturing, could show early promise, they also changed a lot to the time they were fully mature and anything could have gone wrong in the meantime, and often did.   Being endorsed doesn't prevent breeding, but at least it means the progeny can't be registered with the KC.   Which would normally prevent most pet owners from ignoring this endorsement. 

Good breeders use endorsements to protect their breed from unwise breeding, and especially to protect their bloodlines from being involved with inferior stock.

Whilst I don't disagree with Goldmali and Dogs a babe's other points in any way ... (Surprised that two entire dogs left together would produce puppies? Done ALL health tests for the breed?)

It would seem that the breeder didn't comply with the requirements for the endorsements, and if they cannot prove they did the KC are likely to lift them. I think it varies from breeder to breeder whether endorsements are done for the right reasons or for control/the opportunity to ask for more money later. On this basis, the KC have put clear rules in place and they seem to stick to them, and that really can be the only fair way forward.

I find it interesting on here to see how things vary from breed to breed. We aren't (fingers crossed) an exploited breed generally, but it is my perception that endorsements are very rarely used.

Also:
I also feel mis-lead by the purchase of the dog and if I was made aware of such an endorsement had it been explained I would not of carried out the purchase.

Was it mentioned at the time of purchase that the bitch may be wanted for breeding in future? If what was asked for and sold was a PET, with no mention of future breeding plans, then it is the breeder that has been "hoodwinked", and not the purchaser.

we are all aware inter-breeding of the King Charles Cavaliers produce poor pups.

both myself and the owner of the bitch (my partner) have carried out all health checks that were needed,

As you haven't even used the correct name for the breed, have the sire and dam been tested for syringomyelia - a very serious problem in the breed?

I certainly wouldn't lift endorcements for an accidental litter.

>Carefully looking through my dogs paperwork and upon the purchase of the dog none of this relevant information was passed on to myself.

It will be on the actual registration certificate, but because people often did not look at this carefully enough is why the kennel club 'additionally' asked breeders to get something signed in writing to show that it had been expressly pointed out.

So yes the breeder should have pointed it out in addition to it beign on the regstraion certificate which you should have noticed if checking documents carefully.

So TECHNICALLY your able to get the endorsement lifted by the Kennel club.

But MORALLY you should be abiding by the reasons the endorsement would have been placed by ethical breeders.  That is to discourage uninformed, possibly harmful breeding.

Usually a breeder will happily remove the endorsement for you as long as your breeding has been suitable.  that is that both the dogs used for breeding have passed relevant health screening tests.  That would be Hip scoring (as every breed can produce dysplasia), eye testing (most breeds have one or more eye conditions that can occur) and any other DNBA or clinical tests for other hereditary diseases the breed has a higher statistical incidence of.

Rather that try to get endorsement lifted on a technicallity the right thing to do would be show good faith, to ensure that both dog and bitch have their health tests in place before you try and register the puppies. 

This may mean a delay, but you do have up to 12 months from when they are born to do this at the usual price.  You should draw up a contract for the new owners specifying that registrations will be applied for on completion of health testing, which unfortunately was not down as the mating was unplanned.

As you have not had to pay for an outside stud fee, the saving will fortunately cover the cost of getting the tests done.

This may mean a delay, but you do have up to 12 months from when they are born to do this at the usual price.

Problem there -which I personally would see as a huge problem. It was recently posted on Facebook (by a real life friend of mine who had it happen, so I know it is true -and also if you think about it, it is obvious) that if you register puppies AFTER they have been sold, they cannot be endorsed -as they were not in your possession when the endorsement was placed. And I would say in the breed in question with such major health problems and so many unscrupulous breeders, it is VITAL the pups are sold endorsed.

If I was the breeder of the bitch here, I'd refuse to lift the endorsements -for many reasons, but one big one being it would leave the door open for further litters otherwise!

As you have not had to pay for an outside stud fee, the saving will fortunately cover the cost of getting the tests done.

tooolz would know better but according to the breed club website, MRI scanning varies from £200 to £300 per dog, and then you have the BVA fee on top which is £100, so for that alone -without anything else, you'd be talking between £600 to £800 for both parents. Then you have official eye testing, cardiologist and general vet patella check on top. It's easy to see why pet breeders don't bother -but you get what you pay for with the puppies instead -peace of mind.

>If I was the breeder of the bitch here, I'd refuse to lift the endorsements -for many reasons, but one big one being it would leave the door open for further litters otherwise!

But the facts (as we've been told them here, obviously might not be 100% accurate!) are that if you were the breeder, it would now be taken out of your hands by the KC anyway - although of course, as a responsible breeder applying them for the right reasons, you'd have made sure they were done properly in the first place anyway, so the owner would know he was on a hiding to nothing.

I sound like I'm arguing for the breeder of this litter, and am definitely not - but rules is rules and as far as that goes I support the clarity the KC put in place around this.

Oh and just to add, I think the reason I'm putting it like this is to ensure that people who DO add endorsements for the right reasons ensure they know why they must be done properly LOL, rather than to aid the feckless ;)

But the facts (as we've been told them here, obviously might not be 100% accurate!) are that if you were the breeder, it would now be taken out of your hands by the KC anyway

I know -my point was more that in this kind of scenario, even if there was a contract signed by both parties and the KC would not do anything, I'd refuse to lift the endorsement as the buyer is the one that has been so irresponsible. The reasons for why I am disputing this are after owning the dog for over a year it has come apparent that he has now produced a litter of his own with our other family dog which as you can imagine came as a surprise to us. just beggars belief, doesn't it. :(

>it has come apparent that he has now produced a litter of his own with our other family dog which as you can imagine came as a surprise to us.

How can it be a surprise that a male and female might produce offspring?

> How can it be a surprise that a male and female might produce offspring?

Far too much of this "accidental" stuff nowadays. It seemed to be a lot less common a few years ago - strange, that.
Maybe there's a rogue gene at work in humans, that is late onset and affects memory of sex education?

Goldmali (Marianne)
You are absolutely right, health testing constitutes around £500-600 per breeding dog to safely say you "have done all you can to ensure the health of the puppies".

To the original poster.
Point one....if the above precautions have not been taken then, to ensure health in such a tricky breed....YOU may be on the receiving end of the law for failing to produce "goods" fit for purpose.
Point two...it is for the safeguard against people like you... Thorwarrior ...that all decent breeders endorse their pups.
Such a shame that you may get away with it on a technicality but as they say..."what goes around...comes around".

>The reasons for why I am disputing this are after owning the dog for over a year it has come apparent that he has now produced a litter of his own with our other family dog which as you can imagine came as a surprise to us. just beggars belief, doesn't it.

It certainly does, and imagine it raised a wry laugh from the person who got the letter!

It wasnt the bitch that was endorsed it was the male dog
If it had of been the female I would of understood
The bitch showed no signs of being in season nor that of being pregnant her behaviour feeding habits nor nipples were apprant to us
Both parents have had all health checks along with hhip eyes and DNA tests
All puppies have been vet checked as soon as it was possible
T

You've done the Cavaliers hips and MRI scans?
They'll be listed in the Breed Record Supplement then.

Make MORE sense to endorse the MALE if any, as he can produce (and potentially influence the gene pool far more) many more puppies than a bitch.
I imagine most readers are wondering why you thought two entire dogs wouldn't mate? Endorsements don't render them sterile.

You've done the Cavaliers hips and MRI scans?
They'll be listed in the Breed Record Supplement then.

And even better, online now so that anyone anywhere in the world can check. Just went and checked some of yours tooolz to see what it looks like when all tests have been done in the breed -quite a lot listed there all with good results! Took literally 5 seconds.

> Cavaliers hips

I didnt think Cavaliers needed hips doing?

Many cavalier people seem to think so, because 270 were scored up until 1/11/11, which is more than many larger breeds. Their BMS is 16 (higher than that of the labrador!), with the worst score being 92, which suggests that hipscoring is important for the breed.

ive not come on here to make myself a so called breeder ive merely come on here to gather some advice and opinions upon the situation neither one of you know me, my life nor the situation of what has occurred or is occurring therefore you all should not pass judgement upon myself nor my ongoings
if nobody in here is willing to give sound advice without the cattyness that is being bestowed then as far as i can see you all are out of order
As breeders yourselves you should be here to give advice not slain someone in the process

As for passing comments such as endorsing a dog doesnt make him sterile do you really think i am thick ???
ive ended up in a situation that is all not knowing what to do ive joined here to gather advice on the situation i do not call myself a breeder nor would i presume to be one
this was my own first purchase of a pet
And accidents do happen there is no need for the rudeness some off you are showing
if you are incapable of providing some sound advice why comment at all?!  

I suspect you want "breeders" to criticise the supplier of your dog, to sympathise that you can't KC register your puppies and to see how perfectly easy it is to have got into your position.

Why don't you sell them unregistered? You'll only get a little less for them.

:-)

>neither one of you know me, my life nor the situation of what has occurred or is occurring therefore you all should not pass judgement upon myself nor my ongoings

I agree; all we have to give advice on is what you've told us, and that's all people have done. The best advice is to sell the puppies as unregistered pet-only. And then have either your dog castrated or your bitch spayed to avoid the situation happening again.

>And accidents do happen

Yes, they do. That's why there is the option of the Alizin injections - the canine equivalent of the 'morning-after pill'.

>i do not call myself a breeder nor would i presume to be one

Now that you're the owner of a bitch who has had a litter you are a breeder; one litter - even one puppy - is all it takes, just as it only needs one baby to make someone a parent.

Quite. all breeds are susceptible to Hip dysplasia.

It is sad that the worst breed for Hip status, according to US data is the Bulldog, yet so few are scored in the UK.

Not to be mean but people, breeders and otherwise are here for whatever reason they want. They are not contracted to dish out advice. I have noticed on these kinds of sites that when someone gets a reaction that is not in their favour they will claim that they are being "judged" and treated harshly. Sometimes when you ask a question you don't get the answer you want.

My sympathy is with the breeder who apparently thought they were selling a pet and not a breeding animal. You have said that yourself. You obviously should have been informed of the restriction but the breeder rather unwisely thought that the idea of breeding was not going to come up. I always use restrictions and I explain that I am unlikely to ever lift them for someone who bought their dog as a pet and who has now decided "a litter would be fun".

If you had an accidental mating how come you had the health tests done? Or do I have that wrong and you got the tests done after the litter was born?

As others have mentioned, if you keep an entire dog and bitch together they will mate and you will get puppies from the dog that the breeder most likely never wanted bred.

Well put mcat