My pup is now 6 months old and is generally good. The other night the kids teased hom. He was growling with a chew in his mouth and they thought it was funny to keep making him growl. When i got in and tried to remove him he bit me and drew blood :( he was being tormented and i dont think it was his fault but have bewn worried and nkot left him alone with kids. Today weve been up with the horses all morning so hes probably very tired and i stuck him in the batj as soon as we got back. He was om to start but then became aggressive and started to bite. The look on his face i knew he meant it. This carried on when drying. Im so worried now about this aggression. Can it just be tiredness. I dont want to put the kids at risk but couldnt bear to part with him :( these are the only 2 incidents.
Please advise :(

Unfortunately it is your kids that have TRAINED your dog to bite. He was WARNING them by growling (the best thing a dog ever can do! a dog that WARNS is safe if LISTENED to, as they don't want to bite) but they didn't listen, so he he has now learnt that to avoid something he feels is unpleasant, he has no other choice than to bite. :( As this is now a serious situation, with a young dog learning habits for life, I'd look for a good behaviourist to help you and you really need to train your kids as well as the dog. I don't mean this to sound harsh, it's just the facts.

As Goldmali has said, do not delay get a good behaviourist in right now. Please look at sites for the UKRCB and the APBC for someone in your area.

It has to be said that it sounds as though your pup has been pushed beyond endurance. Dogs rarely bite out of the blue but if provoked repeatedly and if their warnings that they are upset (growling) are ignored, that is when they may bite because they feel pushed into a corner. It is likely that your pup felt he was being challenged by your children over a highly valued resource - his chew and finally felt compelled to meet the challengers head on- you confronted him when he felt he had nothing to lose and was likely feeling very threatened/frustrated. Unfortunately biting generally wins out as we all back off when bitten- especially is it is unexpected. Thus your pup has learned that biting is an effective way to protect himself and things he values.

I am only spelling this out so that you can see how vital it is to get a behaviourist in to help you. The situation is potentially serious and for now I would advise that you keep your children well away from the puppy, especially around food, chews, toys and his sleeping area. Don't leave any of these just lying around but don't try to take them from your puppy either. If you need to collect chews etc.. you'll have to distract him outside or similar while doing so. You do not want to remind him of anything that feels similar to the situation where you got bitten. Give him a wide berth when he eats his food. Your children must not tease him in any way again. If you have some basic obedience commands try to use these to maintain some structure to your relationship with him. Do not be tempted to hit him or shout at him.

I am so sorry this has happened and really feel for you. Please get help as soon as you can.

As suggested previously a behaviourist sooner rather than later would be a good idea.

I'm interested you mention tiredness. Do you think he's getting enough down time to fully relax & sleep undisturbed? Over stimulation can sometimes be behind early aggression problems.

I hope you soon get him back on track xx

I agree that he was probably tired and the bath was all just too much, BUT he has also learnt that growling and now biting is an effective weapon. Your dogs is not vicious, but showing signs of aggression which needs to be dealt with by someone who really knows how to do this. Do not under any circumstances allow your children to behave so badly towards your puppy again, it is asking for trouble. Teasing a dog particularly where a high value item is involved is an absolute no, no. Sorry to be blunt, but it is so easy for a young dog to be labelled vicious and have to be pts just because children were behaving in stupid way.

Dixiedaisy, it's a fair point. A good behaviourist will ensure that everything is looked at, not just the specifics, he/she will also ensure there are no other contributing factors like underlying medical issues.

On the surface of it, and all else being equal, it is possible the pup was overtired but then again many pups do not enjoy being bathed or indeed being handled/restrained at certain times and it is entirely possible that this pup has realized that biting is a highly effective way to stop anything he does not like or want ... It is a learned aggressive response.

Thank u all so.much for such prompt and helpful responses.
I would like to clarify that in no way condone what my kids did and they were told off as well as having explained why barney did what he did. My 3 yr old is no longer allowed to play with barney if im not there and they have both been told not to go near if he has a chew.
Also i am not labelling him as vicious and would not even consider having him pts. I got him from a breeder who would always take her pups back if there were issues but im not giving up on him that easy.
I totally believe that both episodes were explainable altho not excuseable.

His training has gone well but i think life has taken over and i need to go back to some basics again as well as seeking advice froma behaviourist.
I do remeber with my first dog that we would pretend to eat his food with him so he got used to not taking total posession of things-not sure if thats still used?
Also how much sleep should he be having at 6 months? When the kids go to bed about 8 then he prettyuch sleeps all evening beside me on the sofa but other than that he has a shut away sleep for about 1.5 hrs a day?

Hes a cocker spaniel if that makes a differenc e to the sleep amount x

I think a 3 year old child is a little young to be expected to leave the dog alone. My 3 year old can get too hyper with the dogs too so I have a barrier across my living room that allows the dogs to be fully included in family life but at the same time gives them some peace. I use this one....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Safe-and-Secure-Metal-Playpen/dp/B000OBXTMQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384271229&sr=8-1&keywords=metal+baby+pen

It's so much easier if you can restrict free access when the kids are too young to understand.

Sorry Barneybear, I was a bit sharp, but it was meant in the best possible way.
Good that you have taken steps to sort the children out, they probably thought it was funny and the dog should think so too, sadly not.
As to the food sharing bit. Taking a dogs food away is not considered to be a good idea now as it can lead to possessiveness and perhaps biting. If you want to start again to check how he is as regards his food, sit down holding his bowl and put a small amount of food into it and let him eat, when finished add some more and so on so he appreciates you are the one controlling the good stuff. If he's ok with that, as he's eating normally, drop a tasty item near him or into his bowl as you pass, so he comes to understand that it's fine to have you nearby when he's eating as nice things happen. Alternatively let him eat somewhere on his own where nobody disturbs him so he starts to relax. If you need to remove a chew from him offer something else as a swap so he doesn't see this as a bad idea.

As to sleeping, my pups almost the same age as yours and sleeps pretty much from about 8pm onwards although she joins me when I make a cuppa a bit later on, she soon back to snoozing again and goes to bed in the crate at about half ten to eleven o clock. During the day she has a snooze in the morning and then a good sleep after her main walk in the afternoon so perhaps another one and a half to two hours or so. I reckon they are fairly similar and mine seems fine on it. She's a GR by the way.

Thats ok jodi i didnt take it the wrong way but wanted to clarify. It is serious so everyones responses have been gratefully received. Would u say mine would be better with two sleeps in the day? No day is the same in our house and Barney comes to the horses with me, goes to my mums when i work and walks are as and when altho being up the horses for a couple hours everyday is quite alot of stimulation.
Hes started to have a bit of separation anxiety too which could mean hes feeling a little unsettled.
There arent any behaviiurists local to me :(
Hes been absolutly fine since the bath but im nervous now it could happen again.
Our house isnt set up for a room divider but barney has a playpen for time out which is different to his sleep cage

bb,

First of all, please do not under any circumstances pretend to eat your pup's food in front of him, or take food away from him. Doing this may be perceived by the pup as further teasing and may simply wind him up. Keep anything to do with food and toys calm and unemotional and let your pup eat in peace; only go to remove his bowl once he is doing something else.

Here's a link to a nice little video about some of the weird things we are exhorted to do in the name of dog training around food:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWRhXT6TJzY

I say be careful for now because your pup has become tuned into and sensitive about his 'stuff' and you do not want to trigger further episodes of aggression by reminding him of the first episode. My advice, get your behaviourist in asap...in the next few days. Until then, give your pup plenty of space, keep things calm and don't push him.

Ensure he has two good half hour walks with obedience training mixed in. By this I mean ask for sits, downs (if he knows them), recalls and ensure you praise and reward good behaviour. Don't get into games that require him to relinquish an object, like tuggy, or ball, unless you are darn sure he will release for a swap. Do not let your children play these games with him and for now, do not let them handle him. Don't let them touch him while he is asleep and make sure they give his bed a wide berth.

Please let us know how you get on with the behaviourist.

Thanks. The food thing was something i was told years ago with my last dog!
Unfortinatly on the two sites given theres no one close by so will have to research someone local as theres bound to be someone.
I understand what yr saying about the games etc and have already explained to the kids whp seem to understand.

Give your pup the opportunity to sleep and he will do so IF he wants to. So long as he has somewhere he can settle and have a snooze then that is fine. Are you thinking of putting him in the crate especially to sleep? Isla only goes into her crate at night or if we go out during the day and can't take her. If she wants to have a nap she just takes it wherever she is, but then I don't have any children at home who would distract him. Perhaps teaching him to go to his bed and lie down on it and that is where the children are kept right away from him would be a good idea, so that he has a place to go to if he needs to sleep during the day.

Yeah he goes in a covered crate for a sleep as the kids would disturb him and sadly hes ripped up every bed ive tried to give him a special area with

That link is fab, great explanation of why it should never be done.

Yes the link is good. I actually get barney to sit and wait but wont do the sit anymore now!

Ok, probably best for him to be in the crate, do the children keep well away and leave him in peace? Does he go there of his own accord or do you out him in and then does he go pretty much straight to sleep?

The reason Isla has a sleep in the afternoon is that is when she has her main walk and she is quite often tired after that especially if she has met up with another dog to have a play round. She sleeps more deeply then. The morning snooze is lighter and she wakes up easily if anything interesting happens or I leave the room (even on tiptoe). On the other hand GR's have an amazing capacity for sleep.

I too like the video although I've always made my dogs sit and wait before eating their food as it teaches them some self control and stops any food snatching as the bowl is being put down. Has that now become something I shouldn't be doing?

bb,' Are you able to say where you are?

The reason I advise people from those organisations is that although the world of behaviourists is still unregulated, these two organisations are pushing for regulation and voluntarily adhere to the regulations and codes of professional standards and conduct of the ABTC (Animal Behaviour and Training Council). In this sense, you know that the practitioner will have a standard of scientific education as well as hands on practice with a range of dogs, before accepted by either organisation. They will also be fully insured. Sadly, there are many who call themselves behaviourists but who do not meet all three criteria, which seems the bare minimum requirement before offering services to the public. Even then, it is not a perfect system, but better than nothing.

Please be careful about just going to a local who calls themselves a behaviourist. Ask about training and qualifications and what methods they use. A really good behaviourist should have an open and eclectic approach and be across many training methods, not just one or two, they should have a whole range of tools in the box rather than being slavish adherents of one brand. Beware over use of jargon and phrases like "dog whisperer".

Im on the north devon coast x

I think a sit wait is okay, provided the release is quick, but I much prefer the Gwen Bailey method, which, I should underline, needs to be done when they are a young pup. That said, I do agree with impulse control exercises so don't have such a big problem with the sit wait command as the video trainer...I wouldn't draw it out to test the dog though. My main point with the video was to show that all of us are naturally uneasy about other beings in our face when we eat...,it's instinctive and even more so about food snatched away when we are eating.

The Bailey method involves briefly stroking the pup as they eat (only briefly not continuously) and at the same time dropping a couple of extra high quality tidbits into the bowl (like two tiny bits of cheese or similar). The idea is for your pup to learn that your presence around the food bowl is a good thing, not a provocation, challenge or punishment, eventually you get to a stage where you can dig around in the bowl with no reaction. Incidentally, if this early technique is also combined with general obedience sits and waits in a variety of contexts, you'd still probably have a dog that will sit and wait for his food if you ask- he'll obey because by now he's used to doing this and he trusts you completely around food.

That said, a word of caution. Some pups are reared to eat from the same bowl and to compete over food. It's a good question to ask breeders, since those pups are likely to be a bit more aware and reactive to approaches to the food bowl. I'd still use the same techniques though- perhaps more slowly and with tweaks.

Finally, don't use this technique with the cocker pup. You need a proper assessment first.

Thanks freelancer, sounds as what I'm doing is ok, I don't keep her waiting more then a few seconds, just so long as I can put the food down and step away.
She doesn't seem worried about my presence whilst she is eating, not that I stand over her or anything, but I'm perhaps making tea or washing up close to where she is eating and I have popped the odd item into her bowl, like an escaped pea from our meal or something! :-) She seems very relaxed regarding food, but then I went to a great deal of trouble to find a breeder who is as picky about temperament as I am.

BB

I'd suggest you contact vet/behaviourist/trainer Sara Davies http://www.petsandtheirpeople.net/ who is also a member of the APBC. Over the phone tell her what has happened and where you are based. If she is too far from you I would think and hope she will know of someone good who is closer. In your shoes however, I would be more than prepared to travel a bit further if I thought someone could really help. You have nothing to lose by contacting her and I'd urge you to try.

This is not a personal recommendation by the way, she looks like the closest to you and would be a good first port of call, plus you get a vet and a behaviourist in one, which means you can cover all the bases more quickly.

Check your insurance to see if you are covered for behavioural issues.

I have a friend who has a working cocker.  He was well bred and like you they went to a lot of trouble to find a breeder who was breeding for good balanced temperament and had children in the home to expose the pups to etc.  He resource guards.  Only very high value stuff and it is very much a fear thing.  If he starts grumbling the best thing with him is just to call him away and he comes immediately always seems upset and worried although he has not been told off for his behaviour and he pretty much always leaves his thing behind.  Generally they just don't give him high value stuff if there is a chance he will need to be moved or whatever as it is not a major problem and has never got worse at all. 

Not a lot of help/advice but I found it interesting they are both the same breed exhibiting the same trait despite being bred for temperament at least as much as type.

Jodi,

Of course, some dogs are more laid back than others and just more tolerant of all kinds of things, so looking at parental traits etc.. as well as rearing by the breeder, is really important in choosing the right dog to live with us and meet our expectations. Sounds like you did well.

I think if your dog is relaxed when you and others are close by when she is eating that is all you can ask for...if it ain't broke etc.. The last thing you want is for the dog to associate feeding time with stress and challenge. Some dogs will always be more naturally possessive, just as humans are, so you don't want to trigger that.

Thanks freelancer, I'm dead chuffed with her, and she looks good too :-)

Great video! A lot of my clubs over the years have advocated the sit wait with food, but I've always instinctively felt it was unfair - meal time is a big highlight in a dog's day, and as long as they don't knock the bowl out of my hand halfway to the floor (I do sometimes ask for a sit while I put the bowl down) then they are allowed to go straight to the bowl as it reaches the floor and start eating. :-)

Just to be clear, I don't think teaching a sit and brief wait is necessarily wrong, it could be viewed as canine manners...you know a quick please and thank you. We certainly don't want the dog grabbing at the bowl while we hold, so it makes sense to ask for a brief sit and wait until the bowl is on the floor and you have let go of it...if your dog is grabbing at the bowl. Let's not forget that until you let go the food does belong to you. It's just that, and forgive the pun, I wouldn't make a meal of it around the food bowl for each and every dog. For me the most important thing is that the dog it totally relaxed and trusting around food, too much enforced control around a very natural behaviour like eating can become stressful for all concerned and that is not so great. As I said earlier, a dog that trusts you completely around its food and who has a reasonable level of obedience will probably sit and wait for a bowl of food if the need to do so arises.  

We certainly don't want the dog grabbing at the bowl while we hold, so it makes sense to ask for a brief sit and wait until the bowl is on the floor and you have let go of it...if your dog is grabbing at the bowl.

And if you feed several dogs, the first will have finished its food by the time you put the last bowl down so the first will then try to nick the food off somebody else. Well in my house anyway!! :) Hence sit and wait until told they can eat and everyone will start at the same time.

> And if you feed several dogs, the first will have finished its food by the time you put the last bowl down so the first will then try to nick the food off somebody else.

Rescue dogs have sometimes never been taught food manners, and if they have ever been strays they have even fewer qualms about poking their beak into any food humans are eating (I have one like that!). So I feel there is nothing wrong to teach a little patience around food of any kind.

Goldmali and MsT,

Good points- with a group of dogs there has to be some order and I certainly know what you mean about rescue dogs where teaching some manners can be make or break in rehoming a dog.

I also believe in teaching impulse control and feel it is a key part of early training, as I said I think a brief 'sit' and 'wait', or in a group of dogs a 'wait' until all the dogs can get to their food (I think dogs do have a strong sense of fairness ) is fine. What I'm not so sure about, and I think it's what the trainer in the video was getting at, is daily protracted waits at the food bowl as a kind of testing the dog/control exercise to ensure the dog is not 'dominant', together with standing over the dog while its eating and practising taking food away. I think the looming over the food bowl as the trainer shows is very different from the positive proximity that Gwen Bailey advocates.

Here's a video of a woman who has a very odd take on teaching food bowl manners...to me this looks like how to make your pup food aggressive from day one (she also has what look like nip marks on her hands).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgUbU6wUkhM

To me that pup accepted her touching him fine initially..great, give him an extra treat and back off, but she has to push it and push it. Why does a dog need to be touched all over his head, body and paws while he's eating...This is madness surely? I think the problem is often you get a perfectly good think like a quick sit wait for food and then some bonkers human decides to turn it into a massive control exercise. Just my view of course and others may disagree. 

What I'm not so sure about, and I think it's what the trainer in the video was getting at, is daily protracted waits at the food bowl as a kind of testing the dog/control exercise to ensure the dog is not 'dominant', together with standing over the dog while its eating and practising taking food away.

Yes I fully agree.

Freelancer - your link to the video was interesting.  I found it hard to watch.  To me it seems that the puppy was not learning anything constructive from this woman.  He was surely only learning that meal times are stressful, he gets scruffed and scolded (and probably does not know why) and, worse still, his meal is constantly being whisked away from under his nose.  Poor puppy.

I remember my last pup was so thrilled and overwhelmed with delight when he first had a big knuckle bone to chew on out on the lawn that he barked and growled when we got close to him.  I walked casually past at a comfortable distance several times, tossing him yummy treats as I did so, gradually getting nearer.  I repeated this in a couple more sessions and was very soon able to give him a quick stroke and a 'good boy' before walking off.  After three sessions he was wagging his tail and welcoming me and looking up for his extra treat - happy to let me stroke him and also remove the bone in exchange for a further treat.  He never barked or growled again.  Problem solved in a total of approximately 20 minutes training, bless his heart!  If I'd tried the methods of the woman in the video I can imagine the outcome would have been very different and I think it would have been my fault!  

That was a good thing to do Blay and it worked in a far less stressful way then the poor pup in the video, whether that worked in the long run would be interesting to know.
Poor little pup had no idea what on earth was going on and didn't know whether he could eat or not. I would imagine it would cause more food issues then it solves.

After three sessions he was wagging his tail and welcoming me
reminded me of a girl we had about 20 yrs ago, she would take her marrow bone, lie and chew it for 15/20 minutes then bring it to me for me to use a spoon handle to scoop the marrow her tongue couldn't reach from down the middle :-D She would then have it back to carry on chewing!

Most of my dogs have been like that tatty-dad, even the new pup is getting me to hold a chew or bone so she can really have a good go at it.

Could not watch this to the end ! Poor little chap. All he has learned is that food can be removed without warning and one of his few pleasures in life can be spoiled by interfering owner. Leave the little fellow alone to eat. He'll be fine.

I know. If you did watch to the end you would see that she has sustained all those pinprick bite marks on her hands and arms from another little puppy called Sage....

I too would be interested to know the long-term outcome and how the pup behaves as an adult.

The thing is that punishment can appear to work very well in that the pup will probably have learned to be compliant around the owner and the immediate family and suppress the urge to growl/bite to warn her and them off. So, I would not be surprised if that dog as an adult appears perfect on the surface. However, those internal stresses around food may also continue, it's just that he suppresses them. What happens, I wonder, if he suddenly feels uneasy/threatened around food with someone outside his family group- a child for instance, will that suppression work as well? That is the vital question and why there is a question mark over punishment in training around things like food aggression- it is possible the methods do nothing to change the dog's mind about threat to his resources, he just suppresses the aggressive behaviour. As we know, dogs rarely bite out of the blue, the triggers build up over time until the dog snaps, both literally and mentally.

I much prefer the idea that we teach the dog to relax around food, we are no threat to his food, if he is a bit possessive as a puppy and some are, we can change his mind about the need to warn off. As others have said, a dog can get so trusting that he will bring his chews, etc.. for you to hold while he has a gnaw.

My God, that woman is an idiot.  The video one.  Here is a source I like on food and toy aggression and how to avoid it.  This is a Canadian program acclaimed around the world.  The premise that not letting your puppy eat in peace provokes aggression is not backed up in the article very well, I think.  I contacted Joan Orr who replied it is based on well known animal behaviour studies and Skinner.

First the article:  http://www.cappdt.ca/UserFiles/File/articles/resource%20guarding%20for%20parents.pdf

And here is the organization devoted to safe dog/child interactions:  http://www.doggonesafe.com/

Articles by Dr. Ed Bailey, who IS a real animal behaviourist with PHd, and as he says, one with a special interest in dogs, support the same ideal, let the dog eat in peace.