Hi, I'm new to the forum and am asking about info & opinions re dog training.
We bought a lovely WCS pup into our family a month ago he was 8 weeks old and is now 13 weeks. I had a dog growing up and obviously have known many dogs over my life time but I wanted to ensure we did this properly and so began researching and reading but the problem is there is just SO much conflicting information out there and now I am confused and really stressed out.
He's doing the usual puppy thing of nipping and biting he's has chilled out with me and DH but our 3 kids seem like fair game to him. I keep telling him no biting, and if that doesn't stop him I hold his muzzle, if he still bites he gets put in the crate. And he is getting better at stopping but He sometimes growls at them which has me worried. I just don't know what to do for the best though. I read that the dominance thing is now defunct, and I am a big believer in evidence based practice so am inclined to believe the stuff which is based on scientific study, all the stuff I read seems to imply that if you ever employ old fashioned training your dog will end up a biter & equally all the sites which still suport dominance pack leader alpha stuff also seem to imply you will end up with a biter if you allow dog to be alpha. So my pup displays several things others see as him being dominant and my sister who has always had dogs says he is a very dominant type. I am getting myself stressed out as I don't know who to believe and have gone from someone who's waited years so her kids are slightly older and has researched both the breed and breeder and felt prepared and confident to someone who doubts what she is doing constantly and feels terrified she may inadvertently be doing everything wrong.
I want to put a stop to biting th ekids growling at them and food guarding (this just recently started and so far I've gone the pet him and reassure him whilst he eats, add extra treats to the bowl, put down an empty bowl and make him ask, then add a little at a time. Oh and have hand fed too. We have always made him sit and wait till we blow the whistle to eat as I want a good strong recall to the whistle. Is there anything else I can do? and how should I be dealing with the nipping? Please don't tell me I need to train my kids as this is not going to work. They have been told to stand still ignore turn back and non of that works.He just carries on biting them. I am the only one he listens to.

WCS ? Working type Cocker Spaniel ?

Sorry but IMHO telling a puppy no, holding it's muzzle shut, putting it away for using it's mouth in a natural instinctive way is anthropomorphizing your puppy & thinking it understands the word no etc

Your puppy is a puppy & if you wish to teach your puppy that nipping etc humans isn't acceptable, then you have to take a leaf out of an adult's dog behaviour towards puppies.

IMHE the adult dog allows puppies an awful lot of "licence"until the are around 6 months old, before that if the nipping gets too much for the adult dog, it will get up, ignore the puppy & walks away. Sometimes the adult will give a low grump as it walks away.

This you can reproduce by getting up & walking out of the room & staying away for 30 secs or so. You can also offer a soft chewable toy(like a cotton tuggy). ALL the household must do the same & be consistent.

The puppy isn't growling aggressively(although it may sound like)it is simply the noise that puppies make, if you watch puppies & young dogs(& some adults as well)they make an awful lot of noise, play growling & barking. There is no aggression.

You are not a pack leader nor an ALPHA-dogs are aware that we are NOT dogs so we cannot be part of their"pack"as the dominance theory trainers believe. You are a provider for your dog & to ensure that this is how you dog views you instead of feeding all his meal in one put a small amount in the dish & as he eats it adds some more, do not expect your puppy to ask-it doesn't understand asking a human-another dog yes(by licking the corners of the adults mouth is instinctive behaviour to trigger the adult to regurgitate food). Why do you feel the need to "pet"your puppy whilst it's eating ? Resource guarding(especially food)is a survival instinct & even stroking a dog can trigger the growl as a warning to stop your behaviour

IMHO you appear to be trying to teach too many things at once & expecting your puppy to learn instantly

Karen Pryor's website has some good advice & training tips

I do sympathise with you - here is a post on biting that was put on here a couple of months ago.   http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1371576;hl=puppy%20biting#pid1371576  Hope that works.    Just to say that puppy training is all ups and downs - and yes you do get conflicting advice.  My youngster is now 8 and half months old and is pushing the boundaries now.

Children are always a problem - I used to leave a ball in the hallway to deflect jumping up and nipping hair as mine does - they so want to take advantage of children and children move fast, make lots of squeaky noises, so attract a bouncy puppy.  As for the dominance thing - dogs are all different like humans and it takes a while to get to know them. 

Kikopup - dogmantics - Emily Larlham has many good videos on youtube - she has done a whole series of videos on puppy training - http://dogmantics.com/product/25-dog-and-puppy-training-tips-2/  most of the material is there for free which I think is great.  I am sure some folks will come along soon and give you some good advice - there are some very experienced folk on here. 

I have a large breed puppy who now is nearly six months old. I haven't had a puppy in the house for almost fifteen years and that was with an older dog who took most of the early puppy behaviour, so it has been a bit of a re-learning curve. This new pup is a very confident sure of herself dog and I suspect this is how your puppy is rather then being dominant. She did her fair share of biting, jumping up, grabbing clothes and all those other things that drive you mad, thankfully it doesn't last long and now I look back (with relief) that she has grown up enough to stop and has started to become a pleasure to live with.
Do any of your children give your pup it's food? It may be a good idea for the children to take it in turns to prepare the meal, under your supervision, put the food bowl down and tell the pup to fetch or what ever instruction you use. At the moment the pup is treating the children as playmates and not anyone who it needs to obey in any way or earn a reward from such as a treat. The Kikopups trainer uses a clicker to very good effect and just little things like getting your dog to touch your hand with its nose on command is a lovely simple thing you could teach your pup then show your children how to do it so they can have a go with the puppy.
With the food guarding, as said earlier feed little bits of food at a time so the puppy realises it's coming from you and looks up in order to have some more put in the bowl. I'm always talking to my dogs even when they are eating and the response is a tail wag and so far I've not had a food guarding moment with this one or any of the others. I don't try to take things away, usually do a food swap if I need to say remove a bone because it is getting too small for safety. My girl seems very relaxed with me being anywhere near her when she is eating even something of high value and sometimes offers it to me to have a look.
Don't worry about your pup being dominant he is just confident and sure of himself and probably in a very happy home.

You can call it Alpha or provider. It amounts to the same thing with different terminology. The dog needs to respect you and know that you are in charge.

I believe this should never involve smacking or physical punishment. However out of interest, when my Basset bitches want to stop puppy biting they softly close their mouths over the puppy's muzzle. So your instinct to restrain the naughty muzzle is not far off what a mum will do. It's very easy to damage a bone in the muzzle of a young pup so I wouldn't try to replicate this action myself.

I agree that leaving puppy alone when he's not played nicely is a good lesson for him....but as said everyone must use the same technique.

My hounds understand best my body language, I can get them, yes the stubbornest of breeds, to do what I want by  body language alone .... no words at all. I tend to follow on with basic oral commands, but as the lady who taught me this art form said, that is just to make me feel better, it makes no odds to the dog if I speak or not :)

Yes, I talk twaddle to them all the time, but when it's time for them to do what I want I cut the chat......bar my sanity basic commands that make me feel less like a character in a silent movie ;)

You can call it Alpha or provider. It amounts to the same thing with different terminology. The dog needs to respect you and know that you are in charge.

No it doesn't Alpha infers domination by force, provider is just the opposite. Yes dogs need to"respect"humans, but as important is that humans respect dogs & that has to be earnt on both sides.

You do not need to show your dogs you are in charge, they do not understand that concept, dogs understand rewarding & non rewarding, this is the basis of reward based training.

So your instinct to restrain the naughty muzzle is not far off what a mum will do.

The dog's muzzle isn't "naughty"& neither do bitches put their paws around the puppies muzzle

I feel as though you haven't really read my post. I've post on a forum to give me more confidence to be honest as I tried asking in FB groups and felt very much patronised and told off your post has been yet more of the same. I really would prefer to do the positive training thing but have to admit that the ticking off one receives when genuinely asking for help and advice really puts me off.

I don't think he understands the word no I think that consistently telling him no biting when he bites in a firm voice will help him associate the words with my desire for him to not bite the kids. Holding his muzzle closed just came instinctively and frankly I think its a lot better than my other instinct when he's locked onto my sons leg thrashing his head about, which is to give him a jolly good smack! Which I won't do, I understand this would be the wrong approach hence using the alternative of holding his mouth shut & repeating "no biting" after a month of living here he will usually stop when told no biting , But he still goes for the kids when he is over tired over excited etc. I know its just natural normal puppy behaviour but one does want the dog to be loved by the children and when they are sobbing because he won't stop chowing on them its a bit tricky.
I have told them to walk away, he chases them down, I've told them to yelp like a litter mate he gets more excited, turn their back he just redirects the biting to their back, stand still as a tree he locks on and shakes his head from side to side.
I'm asking in here because I'm stressed and confused I really was hoping to find compassion and sound advice, maybe some reassurance. I really do not wish to be patronised.
The most effective thing has been removing the dog to his crate for a few moments. It works. I really didn't want to do it as I felt his crate should be a positive space but frankly the pup hates it already and never goes in their voluntarily anyway.  We do offer alternative bite objects too sometimes he'll take them and others he'll ignore and snap back to the kid.
On the growling I'm afraid I think it is aggressive he does it when they get too close in on him or try to pick him up. yes I've told them not to pick him up but I don't have eyes in the back of my head.
The other night my DH came into the lounge with a sandwich at firstly the pup begged and when that was ignored he jumped up started barking and then growled at DH?? What was that about? My youngest left a cracker on the sofa I told her to pick it up before the dog got it and they both went for it simultaneously he growled and snapped at her as she grabbed it?
He does growl bark etc when he plays with my friends older bitch and I know that doggy play can be awful rough but is all in good spirit. Its not like that with the growling which is human directed he's definitely saying get off me & that's mine.
What you describe is pretty much what I've been doing the last few days with the food.
Would love genuine well meaning advice on this. I've asked because I want help all the conflicting info has me really upset and worried I just want to raise a well rounded dog but frankly this is harder than having three under 4's was.

One thing I have found that was helpful was to use a sharp "ah, ah, ah" to interrupt behaviour, and then praise if the pup stops doing the thing you don't want it doing. It is tricky when they get tired, my pup is still the same now. Putting him in the crate when all else fails and he's just flailing around being obnoxious, is the best thing. It gives everyone time out and him the opportunity to have a nap and calm down. I still reckon my pup has a faulty off switch as she almost seems to resent the fact that she is tired and needs to calm down and rest. As she is getting older, she is improving. Some pups just flop down and sleep others like mine and yours by the sound of it struggle not to and become tetchy and damned annoying. Putting your pup in the crate is for time out and a rest not punishment. Show this by giving your pup a biscuit or something to chew on, then all leave the room and leave him alone to sleep.

Sorry, but you are not understanding your puppy at all.

Simply by telling your dog No for unwanted behaviour doesn't mean he will eventually understand the word-Dogs do not understand human words-they recognize sounds(which is why the clicker is so useful in cueing the dog that the behaviour is rewarding). I could train a dog to do so many things on the cue word No-simply by saying it in different ways.  You have to teach your dog that nipping humans is not rewarding, So any reaction whether it is a word, a high pitched squeal/yell from the human is rewarding the dog & encouraging the behaviour. You need to go back to basics that should have been the norm from day one, which is why Karen Pryor's site is so useful, however you appear to believe that my referring you to the site is patronizing for some reason, Karen is one of the foremost positive reinforcement trainers in the world-is that what you find patronizing ??

Your methods clearly have NOT worked as you puppy is still nipping & not stopping the moment you tell him no.

I understand exactly why you are upset in being told that your"tried & tested"methods are not correct, because what you do is humanly instinctive, but not understood by dogs.

You say no, tell your children to yelp, you hold the muzzle & tell your children to walk away/stand still & none of them work, I wonder why ?

Did you post for people to write there there dear he will grow out of it & keep on the way you are ??

I don't think you will get that sort of reaction on any serious forum.

I read & reread your post & you come across as someone looking for reassurance that what you are doing will work in the end when you puppy realizes you are in charge & not him.

Have you done any training with your puppy apart from the nipping etc ?? Have you taught your puppy to play with you appropriately ??

Do you realize that working Cocker Spaniels are very high work/prey drive dogs ?? totally different to their show relatives ??

I'll withdraw from this thread & leave you to the believers in domination of dogs by humans, whose replies will be more to your liking

here is a link to The Bite Stops Here for the biting.

OK here goes:  at 13 weeks he's still a very young puppy and his brain (whilst pretty adaptive and absorbent) has so much to take on that you must allow him a bit of time to get things wrong, practise and retune his behaviours from the mini hooligan phase he was learning with his litter mates.  Although they seem to speed through puppyhood some lessons simply take longer to learn than others, particularly when you have a number of people in your household all sending your puppy slightly different 'training' signals.

There is no absolute right answer (although there are plenty of wrong ones) and each puppy, and human, needs a slightly different approach.  You just need to remain adaptive.

The key is to prethink situations.  Be really clear with yourself, and your family, what behaviours you want to see from your puppy and try and anticipate and plan as many situations as you can.  Ideally you want to be a few steps ahead of your pup, not the other way around.  By that I mean that you don't want to have to react on the spot to these issues, you want to anticipate them, and head them off.  For instance, some of the hyper activity you will see sometimes will be brought on by hunger, others by tiredness.  Puppies are just like toddlers in this respect.  Your puppy will have a natural rhythm dictated by meal times and need for sleep, try and work with this as much as you can and plan short training sessions when your pup is receptive.  Are you at home all day?  Your pup will need you to be on hand at this crucial stage of his development and it's well worth investing lots of time in him now.  This bit always seems like hard work but I can assure it pays dividends in the adult dog you are trying to grow.  By the time your dog reaches 5 months you will start to see glimpses of the adult he will become.  Until then it can be a bit of a slog!

I'd recommend you get yourself and your puppy to good training class - at this stage you need as much training as your pup does and an experienced trainer will help you learn to 'read' your pups signals.  I'd also suggest you find a couple of authors you like, and can respect.  May I suggest Karen Pryor for clicker training and Patricia McConnell for general all round common sense (her book The Puppy Primer is a must read for new and experienced puppy owners alike)

Finally, how old are your children?  I note that you don't to want to hear that they need training but they really do.  Dogs must be respected and children must be protected.  The relationship between a child and his/her dog is a wondrous thing but both need help to make it happen - that's your job.  Once again a good training class can help as you'll be learning some great exercises that your children can join in with.  In the meantime do invest in baby gates to keep kids and puppy separate when they lack the skills to control themselves around each other.

I read that the dominance thing is now defunct, and I am a big believer in evidence based practice so am inclined to believe the stuff which is based on scientific study,

Articles all referencing scientific studies and explaining that the dominance and pack theories are not correct etc:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/new_study_finds_popular_alpha_dog_training_techniques_can_cause_more_harm_t
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=124687
http://maddiesinstitute.typepad.com/chewonthis/2013/07/study-positive-training-methods-associated-with-fewer-behavior-problems-in-dogs.html

Your posts are exact;y the kind which stop people asking for help. Its the way you are saying it which is so patronising. I'm not just looking for reassurances and yes we are doing other training with him, which is going very well. And I did research the breed and am fully aware of its needs I grew up with WCS as well as other dogs and knew what I was letting myself in for. I'm going to ignore you now and hope I get some better responses. Ones from people who are interested in helping and not just saying oh you silly fool you have no idea hahaha well I know everything and you are an idiot. Which is what your posts come across as. I know a fair bit about using the internet as a tool for helping people with specific problems & trust me your way is not helpful.

Thank you so much for such a kindly written, thoughtful and helpful post.
The children are 8 6 & 5 but the older two are almost 9&7. what you said re pre empting his terror moments makes so much sense. I may try keeping a note of his worst times of day and seeing how they relate to his feeds & sleeps. Thank you for providing some solid sensible advice that has a real chance of being helpful.
Yes having a large household makes it hard to ensure everyone uses the same commands etc, (despite what it may have come over like in my previous post I am not expecting the dog to learn English but rather learn that certain sounds (words) mean certain things.)
I shall sit everyone down & run through the words we are using to ensure everyone is sticking to the previously agreed commands.

Our situation is this, I am a stay at home mum the younger two are in school but the eldest is home schooled, my husband is gone from 8am till 5:30pm mon-fri. I do training sessions with him every day when I feel he seem alert and receptive. He is getting very very good at sit, stay and come. But as I will be doing gun dog training with him the advice in gundog training is to steer off further commands until about 6 months. Oh but I have tougt touch and down too. We live very rurally and I have been unable to find a puppy training class near by but have looked into getting a trainer to come do a session for us at home. My main hurdle with this being finding one who will teach us the right methods. I read VS's book and I really do prefer positive training. I have sadly found so far that the people who promote this method can be unhelpful judgemental & superior.
I shall look into the authors you have suggested thank you.
I know the children do need to be tougt how to interact with him Its not easy though, before we got him they were fantastic with friends dogs dogs we met in the village etc. But all that seems to have gone out the window with getting our own. I am getting the eldest to be more sensible and he's doing well but the younger two have developed death ears. Its proving a real struggle to get them to do as they are told with him. But I know that  is a separate issue and one which I need to work on with the kids. Its just all the stuff recommended so far has been useless and so I've resorted to time out & muzzle holding If this is wrong I'll change it I just needed to do something to stop the biting as it was out of control. He is improving but I've asked as I want to stop it in the right way and not be storing up problems for the future. Ignoring it is just not working. Nor is walking away as its impracticle in the house we have we only have have one closable door down stairs. hence why putting him in the crate was more practical for us than leaving the room, he just runs after and carries on biting you see.
I'll get the baby gates back out in the meantime.

Thank you I have already read most of these links. I really am not wanting to do dominance training, I feel my OP was misinterpreted and that certain replies where aimed less at me and was more a self congratulatory statement.

I am a breastfeeding councillor and am very used to giving non judgemental, empowering support via the internet and telephone, I guess I'm just not used to seeing things written with so much ridicule, scorn and judgement.  And deliberate misinterpretation. If its not 100% clear what a person means by their post ask for it to be clarified don't just make blanket assumptions. :(

Thank you for the links. I have found that re reading them reassures me that I am making the right choice to not use dominance training. Its hard when you have friends & family breathing down your neck telling you you are setting yourself up for disaster by not making the dog wait to eat after you, and not hitting when he growls, nips etc.
Its kind of like BF in that sense I spend hours reassuring mothers that they are right to persevere and to not give in to their loved ones and the societal pressure who are all telling them to stop BF, that FF is easier, and that everyone will be happier if they just give a bottle, when all the evidence points to BF being vastly superior in every way and yet the meme is that BF is hard and FF is just as good. I think its very similar with the pack model that we have assimilated so well into in our cultural conciousness. Everywhere I turn I am told my dog needs me to be Alpha and its really really hard to stick to what you decided when everyone around you doubts it. I hope this makes sense lol. Its helping me to think like this anyway, I want support to do positive dog training not judgement for my failings. in the same way I wouldn't tell a mum who is giving bottles at night that she's actually damaging her babies gut and increasing their chances of SIDS, I'd gently steer her in the right direction and support her to stop using the formula and have greater confidence in her abillity to feed her baby, whilst figuring out if there is an underlying problem, and giving the mother multiple options to resolve any problem so that she feels empowered and supported.
Being snidey just stops people feeling able to reach out.

I'm sorry Daphne that you feel that the answers you have been given aren't what you are looking for.
However your last post comes across that you have been overly sensitive to people's answers/responses to your plea for
advice in training your puppy. Because you don't like the answers you have been given you are just going to ignore them
as obviously they must be wrong...

If you've come to a forum expecting that all will subscribe to dominance way of training, this isn't the forum for that.
Most here through their many years of experience of owning and training various different breeds of dog have come
to realise that reward based methods get the most effective results.

I can give you an example here where one of my pups came back as an adult with behavioural issues.
This is because his owners did not put in the commitment required to right the behavioural issues they had created through incorrect socialisation.
From what we have learned with this lad reward based methods are much better and we have a more relaxed happier dog.
Instead of confrontation with the dominance methods that we initially had.
If the behavioural issues had been corrected when they had started it would have been much quicker and easier to correct.
Instead now we have a management plan along with a fully qualified behaviourist's help. This has not been a quick & cheap fix.
If I had the luxury of not working we could progress his retraining/behaviour rehab much quickly. Instead it's going to be a slow
process.

You say you know a fair bit about using the internet as a tool. Surely you must realise that it is very hard to show people's emotions
in the written word as you have no facial expressions to go by. Also what you probably don't realise is that forums such as champ dogs have many requests for help in all areas and when people give their experienced knowledge and time in their answers to then get a response of I don't like your answer so I am not going to listen to you..as you can imagine it can be quite frustrating. There are always going to be differences of opinion as to what method/methods are the best and which trainers are the best.

In my own opinion seeing a variety of different methods used, going to a few behavioural talks and having the personal experience of an adult dog with behavioural issues. I am a fan of reward based methods as a relaxed dog learns and is more open to training.

It's not easy having a puppy and they do test you and your patience and through tiredness you can become quite irrational but to reap long term benefits what you are able to put in now you will reap the rewards as they become adults.
I do know what you are going through as I have a 10 week old puppy myself, it's been 6 years since I last had a pup.
This one I bred my self and had to hand rear for part of the time. So I have had 10 full on weeks filled with stress and worry
where I nearly lost mum twice (she is still poorly) and had to endure losing 3 of the 4 puppies. It's not been an easy time and at times
I have probably been over sensitive to some comments from people I have known on social media. But I've sat on my hands and not responded or asked a trusted friend to read them and to see what their opinion is. I am glad I did as a few things could have been
taken either way, it was good to get an unbiased view.
You forget the hard work it is but with the help of a great behaviourist/dog trainer I am sure that with reward based methods
I will get there eventually. Plus have the benefit of having a happy confident puppy :)

But please trust me reward based methods may take slightly longer but they are definitely 'the' way forward.
I hope you can find some good technique's..my way is to remove myself from puppy when she gets overly piranha like.
Then when she is calm I will play again, if piranha comes out to play then I go away. All takes time but I think she is getting the
gist of it.

Good Luck

Having had pups with small children I can re-iterate that separation is the key.

The main issue is the children not being able to understand, and of course puppy doesn't understand that these excitable beings are not surrogate littermates.

It is best for various reasons not to allow a puppy full range of the house but to keep it confined to one or two rooms.  this speeds housetraining, but also allows it to learn to be alone for short periods, and also allows one to remove oneself or the children from it's presence.

Baby gates/barriers are ideal, as pup can still be included and see, but be kept out of harms way.

I made it a rule early on that children and pups only interact when both were calm, it was quiet time, no playing energetic or exciting games.  Plenty of time for children to have more time doing training type things with pup when it matures and has self control, and it isn't such a novelty for them.

I very quickly found it a god idea to divide the garden into dog and non dog areas.  This meant that the children and especailly their friends would play up the garden, the dog did not join in their games, (so stayed calm and everyone was safe) and they did not risk treading in poo.

Your pup will be full of worky drives, and the kids getting active will work pup up.

Also pups are like toddlers, often getting over tired and then irrational, think two year old tantrums, or when they play and games get out of hand.  some toddlers also bit!

Here's a few other things to think about:

I suspect that in your gundog/working community you will find far more owners/handlers using harsh and strict methods.  You need to choose your own path but perhaps, and for the sake of peace and harmony, don't try and persuade them otherwise :)  Don't defend and don't deny!  It's so easy to raise blood pressure when talking about dog training with some of the "old school" folk.  Genuinely you won't change their mind and they shouldn't be able to change yours...

Puppies: it's in their nature to stick stuff in their mouths it's such an important way of learning and exploring.  Kids can't help help jostling and shoving whilst asked to wait or stand still (imagine a line of school kids waiting to go  through a narrow gap).  Puppies are much the same, they multitask when bored and chewing inappropriately or biting and nipping and running and chasing is all par for the course :)  Children are quite the best target for this as they move quickly, have higher pitched voices, are never still and if they are anything like my kids were - they have so much stuff hanging off them that they are a joy to play with.  You might want to prepare your children for the vast numbers of socks, headphones, charger cables, pencils, rubbers, lego they will lose if they leave them out!  Yes, get baby gates and make sure that upstairs is out of bounds for your puppy.  The kids can leave stuff on the floor up there but downstairs they'll need to be careful for the pups safety.

Make sure you have good things for the puppy to chew - keep a box of interesting and safe toys and chews that he can have whenever he needs them.  Keep a chew toy and a handful of treats on your person at all times.  Whenever he has something (or someone) he shouldn't have in his mouth then swap it for something better, more appropriate, and preferably more fun.  Your pup will choose to steal and chew things that matter to you - this isn't because he is being choosy it's simply that those are the things that he will identify most with you.  Remote controls, shoes, socks, underwear etc are all fair game.  If you want him to play with something else then teach him how to play and do it with him.  Take five minutes out to play when he's inviting you join him - it will save you 30 minutes of annoying behaviour later which will escalate to a point where neither of you are enjoying it and you feel you have to put him behind bars :)

If you can't get to training to do look at the Patricia McConnell book - she has a lot of simple exercises that you can follow.  Oh and don't worry too much about contradicting gundog training that you might do later - basically at this stage you are teaching your puppy some manners.  Bright dogs can quite easily adapt to new words and commands if you find you need to adjust them later

BTW don't get stressed about the tone and manner of some posts.  If you have a rummage about in older topics you'll probably find that there are some people you agree with on every topic, some that get on your wick about health matters but are brilliant at training advice (or vice versa) and there are those that clearly have good intentions and great advice but are a bit hopeless at expressing it.  The best advice is just to keep asking, and somewhere in the reams of helpful (and freely given) advice you'll find some real gems that will help.  What you'll get on this forum are people with a lot of experience in a number of different topics - not just dogs.  I've learnt loads here over the years :)

I have nothing to add to the already excellent advice you've had, I would just like to say that with your calm and considered approach, you'll do just fine with your puppy, a willingness to learn and adapt are the key :)

What dogs a babe said, really good advise.

I've been thinking about your friends and relations who are telling you that you need to dominate your dog and show him who is boss and how to explain to them that this could make some dogs become nervous or even snappy and that you want to build trust with your dog, not fear. Without wanting to appear to be boasting, I want to give two examples of how I have dealt with two different situations regarding my puppy. As mentioned before, it's been a long time since I have had a puppy in the house and it has been hard work and a lot of anguish at times. I'm also older and don't have the energy I used to have, all in all it's been a lot of learning and understanding my new girl.
The puppy is a GR, five and a half months old coming from a dual purpose background. Very confident and intelligent will know doubt continue to run rings round us at times.
Situation one
Pup developed a bit of red eye (conjunctivitis) and required eye drops. We could have both held her down and prised her eyes open and popped in the drops pretty quickly which would have left us with a hand shy nervous dog. I decided to get her to oblige and allow me to put the drops in. I told her what I was going to do, of course she doesn't understand I'm not a mad old lady, but she has started picking up on key words, then I showed her the box with eye drops inside and made a big show of getting a particularly tasty treat. Then I sit down placing the treat in her view on the table. She now obligingly sits in front of me and lays her head on my lap allowing me to grasp her muzzle and pull down her lower eyelid and put a drop in each eye. She's then praised and given the treat. She's happy and I'm happy. With a less food driven dog it would be less easy.
Situation two
It's getting pretty muddy round here now the weather is wetter and she is coming back from a walk with a fair bit of it on her legs and stomach. I've always rinsed off the dogs with a section of hosepipe attached to the outside tap. I tried this with the pup and there was noway she was having this. She absolutely panicked and was shaking like a leaf. We could have gone down the route of holding her and making her submit to a wash, but she was really very scared and could well have started snapping, but most importantly i would lose that trust that we have built up. So I have made the whole thing a game. I just have a trickle of water running out of the hose initially and encouraged her to explore that and lick the water, then just sprinkle a bit of water onto her and gradually bit by bit until most of the muck is off and the rest gets rubbed away with the towel. It's taking ages to do this each time and is very much a work in progress and I am learning by how she reacts what I can and can't do at the moment, but gradually she is relaxing and allowing me to wash her more and more.

My pup fixated on me when she was younger wanting to bite and chew my hands and clothes, wanting me to play all the time and needed to be encouraged to entertain herself. Have you tried giving your pup a raw bone to chew on? His adult teeth are beginning to start to erupt and, like babies, he wants things in his mouth. A bone will truly divert his attentions from the children as it will be far tastier! Get that stair gate out as soon as possible. A stair gate and a crate have been absolute godsends, I had used neither before - see what I mean about a learning curve. I've had dogs since I was a small child, I'm 62 now, and I'm still learning.
Good luck

Daphne,

It is confusing.

First off, strictly speaking 'dominance' is about what is called resource holding potential. RHP can only ever apply to the dynamic between two individuals (dog on dog or human on dog), so in each relationship which of those two individuals can hold onto something that they value (for a puppy this means food, toys and often attention). So, your puppy has learned that in his interactions with you and with other human adults you are 'stronger' and he defers to you and accepts you are the leader in your interactions. It could be that in some interactions with your children he has a sense that he can 'win, the key is to come up with strategies that change his mind about this and you have been given a few. A long line and tethering/timeouts if he insists on nipping the children is a good way to go. It is not confrontational but he will learn that nipping behaviour is ultimately not rewarding and limits his freedom.

The puppy is not dominant, he does not have a grand plan to rule your house or be king, rather moment by moment and in each interaction he is driven by instinct ( and some dogs are much more driven than others) to get the best deal for himself. For a pup chasing and nipping is fun and he'll be inclined to do that so long as he gets some kind of result that he finds rewarding. Once it stops being rewarding he will turn his attention to something else. Things to consider when he gets nippy- is there a pattern? Some pups go into extreme nippery when they are over-tired. Has he got enough attractive chewing items- especially when you consider he will be teething? Some pups can become very irritable and fizzy with teething and don't quite know what to do with themselves. Have you got him interested in balls and other things that move? Teaching him to retrieve to hand is something to do now as well as a good, solid 'leave' command. The desire to chase and nip can this way be harnessed and the 'leave' teaches impulse control, both vital for a drivey pup.

Sorry if I am stating the obvious. It could just be that this pup is a much stronger personality than you have had before and therefore less inclined to give up at the first objection to pursuits he finds rewarding. Take heart, often these dogs end up being the best dogs, once they have learned the rules of your home and some manners. Just be patient and consistent and it should come together. If there is any way you could teach your children to quickly and without emotion simply end interactions once he starts nipping them, that would also probably help. Take a look at Ian Dunbar's advice on long lines and tethering in the house/garden.

Good luck.

Thank you so much :) I could hug you.

Just to add to the mountain of excellent advice on here: do go and check out kikopup/Emily Larlham's videos on youtube, if you haven't already, and look for her 'positive interrupter' video.  It's how to train a quick noise that will distract pup immediately, giving you a chance to either reward for stopping biting, or show an alternative, acceptable behaviour for pup to do.

It's been an absolute godsend with my own pup (working lines collie, just turned 7 months) :-)

I'm really touched that people have taken the time to respond in such a calm reassuring and helpful manor. Thank you. I will try the things suggested and sit the kids down yet again lol to discuss calm response to nipping. I've read through the links given and yes it has reassured me a great deal about the positive approach.
I think I have been putting too much pressure on myself with regard to training this pup It upset me greatly when my sister was so negative about him, saying he seems super dominant and to watch him. she said this as he was trying to hump a toy at only 9 weeks old. According to her this is a huge marker of a dominant dog, Poppy cock I thought I've read all about how dogs are not really dominant and trying to take over the world etc. But the doubts set in and began knawing away at me along with comments from others. Every man and his dog feeling they need to give me the benefit of their wisdom in all aspects of training, tap him with a rolled up newspaper to teach heal, drag him by the scruff and force a sit etc. I don't want to train him like this.

I am glad some people took the time to really read my posts and give genuine thoughtful advice. Thank you .

My pup, a bitch, has been happily humping her bed since we bought her home. If it makes her happy who are we to stop her............. (Big grin, sorry forgotten how to do them)

Jodi, as I'm sure you know, humping is often just something to do as a way of displacing anxiety or excitement...all that stressy energy has to go somewhere and better out than building up internally. The only thing I would say is that one wouldn't want it to become a huge habit and so if there is constant humping day after day I'd be inclined to distract the pup into another equally (ahem) rewarding pursuit that is more socially acceptable and that we can control- sometimes this involves simultaneous confiscation of the favourite humping material.

It's not constant, it usually happens in the evening when like most young dogs she is a bit hyper and restless until she finally switches off for the evening. I suspect it's a displacement for not being able to run round having the zoomies in the lounge.

I have observed that the sensation of a full tummy after supper can also trigger humping in some male dogs, don't know about bitches though.

Yes my normally submissive and laid back bitch always humps her mother just after dinner has been eaten!

:-)

Could your pup be getting over excited by your kids? Little fast moving and boosts can be very exciting. When my girl was a new pup often when we were playing she would of turn in to a biting monster, after a few times I noticed just befor this happened she would start panting. So I then knew if she started panting while playing she was starting to get over excited so any game would end at that point befor she went ott.
You might be able to slot something simmaler in your pup

Dogs a babe what a GOOD POST, need a like button :)

I feel so much less stressed since starting this topic, thank you to those of you who have helped. But I am still worried about his growling and biting when someone does something he dislikes, this morning my eldest tried to pick him up as he'd gotten upstairs, he knows the pup is not allowed upstairs but in the hustle of getting ready for school he'd gotten up, he also knows he is not supposed to walk downstairs himself yet as I explained about his joints being too soft still. So he picked him up to bring him down and Pup growled and bit him. Can anyone help on this behaviour please?? Is it aggressive,  what can I do to stop him doing this? Its happened a few times now usually when one of them picks him up, yes I have told them over and over again not to. So the general puppyness biting is definitly reducing and I feel happier now I've had some advice but this actual biting and growling does have me worried please help.

If it were me, I'd just not allow any picking up, easier said than done I know, but dogs learn with repition, this includes undesirable behaviour as well as the good stuff, so I would be inclined to not allow him to practise that particular behaviour or it will be harder to get rid off, after all, practice makes perfect.
Obviously your son was trying to do the right thing, but in this instance, it's just causing more problems for you.

I think in that scenario the children will have to call one of you adults to do it, or get a treat and tempt him to go down the stairs, a one off walking down the stairs will not hurt him, it's repeated running up and down every day that's bad for the joints. Plenty of dogs don't like being picked up, it's a scary thing for a small animal to be swooped up fast and held a long way off the floor. Or if he's trailing a houseline your son can use a treat or his voice and the line to gently encourage him down the stairs.

Daphne,

It is likely that your pup is deeply uncomfortable and even frightened of being picked up, especially near a high area like the stairs. He may not feel confident with your children doing this. That said, the most likely thing is he does not like being picked up, again this is fear not dominance.

All pups come with an inbuilt fear of heights and for many being swooped up in the air, especially by children where there might be fumbling and the whole process feels less than secure and they might even have hurt him without realizing, is scary. Of course, with careful and gentle training dogs can come to enjoy being picked up but it must be done gently and gradually.

The children must not handle him without your supervision. Use your baby gates to limit his freedom around the house. I'm afraid, one way or another the children will have to learn how to handle him or he will make a clear distinction as to how he can behave with them and with you.

That said, the most likely thing is he does not like being picked up, again this is fear not dominance.

Slightly off topic but "fear not dominance" reminded me- did anyone watch "The dog rescuers" on Channel 5 this week? The RSPCA had to break into a flat where a Staffie bitch with two pups had been left alone for two days. So the RSPCA break down the door (well the police did), go in and remove the pups. The bitch is standing there barking , not wanting to be caught with a catch pole -no wonder as a team of total strangers complete with TV cameras forcefully broke into her home and removed her puppies -she must have been terrified. The RSPCA inspector then announces that the bitch is being dominant to her. Eventually manages to catch her and the bitch calms down (as in gives up, she's been broken down) so the inspector then says the bitch has now recognised that somebody else is dominant over her and therefore she is fine. Groan. You'd have thought the RSPCA would be moving with the times a bit more as they are pro positive training.

Inspector Claire Drew shown in the above incident was a member of a dog snatch squad, which travelled around London(complete with 2 police officers)snatching alleged PBT or dogs of the"type". On one program she impounded a chocolate labrador from an elderly man as being of the"type"& when the case came to court it was thrown out as in the words of one of the magistrates"even I can see this dog is a Labrador & not of the "type"nor a PBT" & the inspector, was heavily critised on her actions !!

She is a(sadly)typical RSPCA inspector, full of their own importance & stuck well & truly in the dark ages of dog ownership

She needs to revise her knowledge of dog behaviour PDQ :-(

Goldmali

  This story has made me cry. I'm glad I didn't see the programme. Poor little bitch. Left alone with her pups and then subjected to such appalling stress. Words now fail me.

Saw the programme and thought OMG what on earth is she saying, especially when there are STILL people who think the R$PCA know everything about dogs!!!

Oh dear!!! You would have thought they would have been ashamed of that and not wanting it to be shown on national TV! Poor dog :(

I agree poor dog but can't say I am surprised - look at the following Mr Milan gets for his tv shows.

Thank you. I've noticed they are atempting to pick him up less & less , I think with patience and consistency we will get there. I think what that tv showed is appauling how on earth can anyone expect a bitch to just blithely accept some strangers bursting in and snatching up her pups??? beggars belief!

Hi Daphne
I know that a lot of people have made suggestions on here, which may or may not help, but as someone who had real problems with my pup, and turned to 3 different professionals along with this and another forum, I thought I'd let you know what helped us!  First of all, I tried the bite stops here and it didn't work.  In fact, trainers I mentioned it to were appalled at the idea of letting your puppy bite and mouth you in order to stop biting.  I understand it works for some, but it made my puppy worse, so if it doesn't work for your pup, you're not alone!

My puppy was a nightmare - reduced me to tears on a number of occasions.  It hit its peak when we would be out walking and when I recalled her she would jump and bite my arm in a major frenzy - I posted on here for help! (I still have the scars!).  I enlisted the help of a trainer who taught me 2 things.  Firstly, that the puppy had developed a habit - play with other dogs, I recall her, she runs back and jumps/bites.  She taught me to recall the puppy in a different way (using a squeaky toy) so that the behaviour pattern was different.  It worked like magic! 1 day and not more biting, a week and no more jumping!  Perhaps you should look at what the children are doing before she starts to bite them.  If you notice a pattern, then try to break it by introducing a different type of play?

For unwanted behaviours in the house and also with running at and jumping at runners/bikes/strangers, she introduced me to pet corrector (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Company-of-Animals-AP-CORRECTOR/dp/B0051GO5WM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386026310&sr=8-1&keywords=pet+corrector+spray)
It's compressed air and produces a noise that the dog hates.  It startles them, and allows you the opportunity to distract them and redirect their attention to something positive.  If your puppy is getting too much for your children, squirt the pet corrector in the air, and then redirect him to something positive, and reward him!  I'm not a trainer, but this worked for my puppy.

Finally, you mentioned that you can't find a puppy class, but this is the final thing that I found helped - the last trainer I saw told me that my puppy was treating me like a playmate (jumping, biting etc), and wasn't learning the proper way to interact, and therefore not learning to control her bite.  I started taking her to an off lead puppy class where she got to play (very rough!) with other puppies her age, and this also really helped her bite control.  I now actively hunt out other puppies in the park so that she can play!  She has always been very sociable, but playing with big dogs wasn't helping to teach her, as they wouldn't bite/wrestle/play.  She really needed the puppy interaction.

I hope that helps! It is easy to be disheartened.  Especially when you're getting eaten, and you're tired and fed up!  Just know that others are going through the same thing, and it does get better.  You can read my old posts to see how difficult it was for me, and by trial and error, I now have a wonderfully behaved puppy!  Now just got adolescence to get through!

I would not personally use a pet corrector - what may work for one may not for another. It may also be short lived as the dog becomes accustomed to it - I had that when advised to use 'training discs'    - I know that my older dog would become more aroused by sudden sounds and it would not work.  Over arousal is a problem I have with my boy.  He has jumped up and nipped me - hard!  Left my arms black and blue one day - I have first of all stopped playing tug - that arouses him too much - and his default behaviour on getting too aroused is to grab and tug.  I am working hard on self control excercises.  Here is a very good link to read that explains behaviour that is over the top http://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/too-much-of-a-good-thing/ 

> It's compressed air and produces a noise that the dog hates.  It startles them, and allows you the opportunity to distract them and redirect their attention to something positive.  If your puppy is getting too much for your children, squirt the pet corrector in the air, and then redirect him to something positive, and reward him!  I'm not a trainer, but this worked for my puppy.

And can be very good at creating extremely negative associations with things you really don't want a puppy having negative associations with, which can lead to all sorts of trouble, such as aggression towards whatever the dog is paying attention to when he/she is sprayed.  Or stress/nerves/aggression in a particular situation.  Yes, it can and does work for some people but on the whole, the risks far outweigh the potential benefits IMO.  And the problem with that potential is that it can be instant - one spray and the dog can make that connection for life, and go on to distrust children, other dogs, joggers etc, whatever you're using it to combat.  That puts you in a far worse position.

Training a positive interrupter will have the same distracting effect but in a totally positive way, allowing you to stop pup doing whatever they're doing, take their mind off it and introduce a more appropriate behaviour for you to then reward them for doing.  I used it to stop my puppy biting both me and my housemates (who were just hopeless at stopping her, so may as well have been kids!).

ceejay - have you looked at 'go wild and freeze'?  It's a brilliant game for self control.  I first tried it with a customer who's dog behaved just like you described, at 6 months old he was totally out of control and frankly dangerous with his arousal levels.  It took some time and a lot of self control work but I came across this game again while musing on new techniques for him and it's been the making of him.  His owner can now play tug again too, and only has to quietly say 'stop' (we used 'stop' instead of 'freeze') and he calms and sits in an instant.

I've just started doing the play and freeze game, also use the word Stop, and the pup thinks the whole thing is hilarious. Another thing I have been doing which is useful when she is being persistent that you must join in her play, is to find a named toy. We've been teaching her the names of toys for quite sometime and have nailed about five of them. I ask her to get me a toy by saying 'where is ..........' and she stops playing with the one she has, tries to understand and goes off searching. It takes a while sometimes and she can walk over the particular toy before she catches on. If she brings the wrong one I show no interest and won't even touch it, just repeat the name of the toy I do want and off she goes a searching. When she does bring it, we have a jolly good play and then I say again 'where is ......' And off she goes. Passes the time if nothing else. :-)

No Nikita haven't heard of it but will look it up now thanks.   When I was out on my walk with him this morning I was thinking of ways to tackle problems we meet.  He has learnt that there is something worrying about vehicles when I have to move out of their way on a narrow lane.  My older dog will lunge at them in this situation.  Now Eddy just comes back at me because he doesn't know what to do - default behaviour is to grab and nip - and it does sound really nasty - he growls like a wild thing when he plays and so he does when he bites. I just don't walk them together now unless we go to the beach.  I am looking for a default behaviour I can ask him to do instead of jumping and nipping.  I have to be ready to put my hand out and say off - and ask him to sit.  Very difficult if someone has just stopped to talk to me.  He just doesn't do a settle down yet.  I have just removed him from the room here because he starts chewing the mat - I am sure it is attention seeking behaviour because he only does it when I am sitting looking at my computer.  He is a real wild child although I know that I can get a really good self control - just not at the times I need it yet.