Recent discussions tend to give the impression that all bad behaviour in dogs is due to lack of socialisation, training or mishandling. Bad behaviour in children is usually considered to be similarly the parents / carers fault.  Fair enough, often this is true. But - and it's a big but - there are other factors involved. For example, the dog may have inherited an "iffy" temperament from one of his ancestors - which is, of course, why good breeders breed carefully only from dogs with sound temperaments, and vet potential new owners carefully, seeking to ensure the best possible environment for the puppies.

However, even given this ideal start, there is no absolute guarantee that problems will not emerge at a later date, due to neurological conditions such as brain tumours, epilepsy, or even a chemical imbalance in the brain - just as in human beings. The situation is not as black and white as is often implied. :-(

A friend bred a litter from her very nervous GSD who herself was from very nervous parents, this was against my advice, but friend could see no further than the bitches outward looks. She was mated to a dog with a reasonable temperament.

Just before the litter was born, the bitch developed a salivary gland cyst which quickly became massive as the bitch was within a matter of days off whelping, the litter was born naturally & the puppies had to be hand reared(by her daughter)whilst the mother was taken up to Edinburgh for a specialist operation at the vet school.

With the help of the daughter's bitch who had a 150% temperament(she was all German bloodlines- the mother of the puppies was pure english lines for many generations)she reared the puppies, who all developed the same temperament as adoptive bitch, sound & very outgoing, none of them was nervous.

The friend's bitch's sister had a litter to the same dog, all the puppies were as nervous as their mother & her sister(& in fact all of their litter)

This to me proves that Nuture can greatly affect the temperament of dogs

The way I was told was a dogs temperament is part genetic and part environmental. So a dog with a good genetic background can go on to have problems in the wrong environment or with improper handling or lack of socialization just as a dog with a poor genetic background can go on to be a well rounded dog in the proper environment with the right handling and socialization.

My point of view too Jo

I have a dog who was incredibly badly bred (hindsight etc). I have since met maybe 25-30 relatives and they are all screwed up in one way or another. Some with sweet but strange quirks, some very nervy, but most just with terrible temperaments. The most memorable being one who would just randomly attack the owner. One died after a series of seizures and mine has a confirmed brain tumour. My girl was one of the "breeder's" early litters. It does make you think. Agree that it's largely upbringing too but I doubt my girl ever would have been a social butterfly regardless of puppyhood :( but I expect they are an exception.

My last dog was a nervous aggressive with dogs and strangers. I thought I had done something wrong with socialising her and training and felt awful about it. Then I started meeting people who had dogs from the same breeder and they were very similar, some like my dog, some so scared of people that they would go miles in order to avoid them. So nature played a significant part in my dog, but hopefully nurture helped to make her less of a liability.

I can as easily site instances where characteristics, behaviours and temperament are quite obviously inherited (the dogs with same behaviour characteristics/quirks never having met), and dogs with very little socialisation due to spending their puppyhood in Quarantine, but bred with excellent temperaments in mind having INHERITED THE EXCELLNT TEMPERAMENT.

I think it's fair to say temperament is one of THE most heritable traits a dog can inherit.

Often it's a 'predisposition' ....and nurture can flip the preset 'switches' that have been inherited.

I've always been if the opinion that a good temperament is one which has the capacity to get over a bad experience. Very much like humans really.

Agree.

My first dog (different breed) by many people who met her was thought to have a good temperament, she was able to be handled happily in the ring, greeted people, and appeared sound.

Take me out fo the picture as evidenced when we had visitors when my ex was home but I had not returned from work, when she would not greet them, yet as soon as I came home she was the social butterfly demanding attention.

If something frightened her, hot air balloons, fireworks etc, when a youngster she would just bolt.  Over time as I learnt her pre flight signals I taught her to come to me for 'safety'.

For me THIS WAS A WEAK faulty temperament.

The dogs I own now are a total contrast, if they startle, they get over things very quickly and depending on age and experience will ignore or investigate.

If something frightened her, hot air balloons, fireworks etc, when a youngster she would just bolt.  Over time as I learnt her pre flight signals I taught her to come to me for 'safety'.

For me THIS WAS A WEAK faulty temperament.

Knowing the breed I'd say it's more a case of them making split second decisions, and sticking to them. Most other breeds don't make such quick decisions. It can work both ways, as good decisions can be made as quickly.

But yes, fully agree temperament is more inherited than anything else. And I have found, both in dogs and cats, that the greatest part comes from the SIRE, and not the dam.

> But yes, fully agree temperament is more inherited than anything else. And I have found, both in dogs and cats, that the greatest part comes from the SIRE, and not the dam.

I may be wrong but wasn't there a study done in cats some years ago that PROVED a bad natured sire passed it on to the offspring?

In the dark garden last night,my 6 month old toy puppy would not come away from a big,dark, scary shadow.

She stretched out SO far to look at it, meanwhile planting her feet as far away as possible.It was really comical.
She was really scared of it, 'the boogeyman'. BUT she had to see what it was, jumping back, growling and hiding only to try again and again.
It was my husbands golf trolley in the wrong place. Once she smelled it and touched it "piffff....only that".
Great to see her work it out.

> But yes, fully agree temperament is more inherited than anything else. And I have found, both in dogs and cats, that the greatest part comes from the SIRE, and not the dam.

I fully agree here. The last 4 dogs that I have had the pleasure of owning, having know the Sire, their traits were definitely leaning more towards the Sire than the Dam. One of my boys literally could have been a clone of his Sire, they were identical in every single way, yet his Sire was a kennel dog and apart from attending shows, his life was outside in a kennel yet my boys environment could not have been more different.

I may be wrong but wasn't there a study done in cats some years ago that PROVED a bad natured sire passed it on to the offspring?

I don't know, but if there is one I'd LOVE to read it! :)

> But yes, fully agree temperament is more inherited than anything else. And I have found, both in dogs and cats, that the greatest part comes from the SIRE, and not the dam.

I may be wrong but wasn't there a study done in cats some years ago that PROVED a bad natured sire passed it on to the offspring?

Many many years ago , over twenty at least, I attended a seminar by an American researcher into the in heritability of aggression in animals, from her studies she had concluded that the sire's temprement has the greatest effect on the offspring.
However she had also noticed that the way in which the dam raised the offspring also had an effect, in that an aggressive dam who reacted to every interaction in an aggressive manner, could cause reactivity in the offspring.

There was also that long term study done on the pointers that consistently produced nervous pups, I think the original bitch used was called Aglrana Sue, or something like that.

> But yes, fully agree temperament is more inherited than anything else. And I have found, both in dogs and cats, that the greatest part comes from the SIRE, and not the dam.

Now that is interesting.  My Raine is part malinois, and takes VERY strongly after that side in temperament, habit, drive etc - good and bad, she's highly strung and nervous and bad experience can haunt her forever.  She's pretty much a watered-down malinois despite being 3/4 lab - and her sire was the lab/mali cross.

I'm of the view that temperament is mainly genetic. If the bitch has a sound pup to nurture this will be increased into a well rounded pup in my experience. If she's starting off with a jittery bunch, a good natured mum can help, but it's a harder job all round.

I find the whole nurturing topic a fascinating one, there's nothing better in my opinion than watching both parents raise a litter. The roles are clearly defined but the way they work as a team is awesome.

Really, Dixiedaisy?  I'm the opposite.  I believe Nurture has far more importance on the overall temperament of a dog.  Or any species for that matter.  I mean, children of murders do not show the same instinct to kill as their parent?  Often, a child removed from an abusive family and adopted into another, break the cycle and mature with the similar natures/characteristics as their adoptive family.

Wit dogs, if you took a fabulously stable bred dog and kept it locked in a shed with no interaction or contact with the outside world.  That dog is going to have severe issues. 
Whereas, if you have a dog with an un-stable temperament and 'teach' him how to re-act, behave, he will grow in confidence enough to deal with situations.

Nurture for me.

> Wit dogs, if you took a fabulously stable bred dog and kept it locked in a shed with no interaction or contact with the outside world.  That dog is going to have severe issues. 
> Whereas, if you have a dog with an un-stable temperament and 'teach' him how to re-act, behave, he will grow in confidence enough to deal with si

I didn't discuss what would happen to a sound dog under the cruelty of being locked in the shed. I discussed the job of a mother raising a stable pup vs an un-stable pup. :)

I believe Nurture has far more importance on the overall temperament of a dog.  Or any species for that matter.

3 examples from my own breeding from recent years: (All litters reared the same way each time, same socialisation etc.)

1. Malinois bitch of excellent department (has done Discover Dogs for years) mated to dog A. Pups very nervous.
Same bitch mated to dog B, pups excellent temperament.

2. Papillon bitch of THE most laid back and fearless temperament anyone could imagine, mated to dog C. Pup I kept so nervous I have never been able to show her. Every time visitors arrive she hides, she only accepts people she knows well.
Same bitch mated to dog D, pups of AMAZING temperament.

3. Exotic queen of wonderful temperament, can do anything with this cat, she even comes when you call her. Mated to stud E. 3 kittens all so nervous I could not sell them.
Same queen mated to stud F a year later. 4 kittens that ended up so over friendly even if you push them off your lap 20 times, they still come back for more. The male I kept, now full sized, you can literally hang upside down and all he does is purr and come back for more.

4. Another Exotic queen,  average temperament, perfectly happy to be handled etc, mated to stud E. The resulting kittens reared TOGETHER with the litter to stud F from the example above. Kittens still nervous and avoiding people, despite the other litter of the same age (well 6 days difference) being in the same room and actively seeking out people.

Needless to say I won't be using stud E again.

I have many more examples. After all, if everything was nurture, then all dog and cat breeds would act the same, wouldn't they? You'd be able to easily convince a Golden not to retrieve, and a Collie not to herd. :)

Someone posted this on a FB group, it's very interesting re temprement.
[url=].  http://www.germanshepherdguide.com/temperament.html   [/url]

Very interesting Celli -and exactly what I have been saying -you cannot change what a dog has been born with, only modify it to a certain extent. Long article so I only read part of it then bookmarked to read at my leisure as there seemed to be a LOT of interesting stuff in there. :)

My son (RIP) showed many of his Fathers character traits and weaknesses, yet had not had any contact with him save fro three meetings his entire life.

I do think that we should remember that gestation and the time within the womb is a highly flexible environment that can significantly alter both gene expression and brain architecture, irrevocably. There is good research on the relationship between maternal stress/ and or diet and behavioural issues in offspring....this is in humans and I know research has also been done on primates.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Wit dogs, if you took a fabulously stable bred dog and kept it locked in a shed with no interaction or contact with the outside world.  That dog is going to have severe issues.  <br />Whereas, if you have a dog with an un-stable temperament and 'teach' him how to re-act, behave, he will grow in confidence enough to deal with situations

I'd disagree, having had a dog through quarantine cope beautifully at a busy dog show two days after release from Quarantine, every bodies friend, yet he'd been in confinement with just visits since 9 weeks old.

I know many dogs with wonderful owners well socialised, but the dogs are unreliable, and nervous.  Well trained, but not sound.

Sorry Barbara, that was not in reply to you, just a general observation and we posted at the same time.

What I'm trying to say is that, as far as know there have been no genes identified for certain temperament traits but the complex flow of hormones and neural development come to set traits. However, that neural development is highly plastic in the womb. If an angry woman gives birth to an angry daughter it may look like a heritable trait but might equally be that a stressed out mother loads the womb environment with stress hormones which in turn set the neural tuning of the developing foetus and likewise sculpt the brain.....so genes or nurture?

Done exactly the same as Goldmali, It looks really interesting

Goldmali - Can I just ask, of the pups/kittens you've bred that have had nervous/suspect temperaments, and you've kept, had any adverse effects on other dogs/cats in your household (both those that have come before and after)?

> 1. Malinois bitch of excellent department (has done Discover Dogs for years) mated to dog A. Pups very nervous.
> Same bitch mated to dog B, pups excellent temperament.
>
> 2. Papillon bitch of THE most laid back and fearless temperament anyone could imagine, mated to dog C. Pup I kept so nervous I have never been able to show her. Every time visitors arrive she hides, she only accepts people she knows well.
> Same bitch mated to dog D, pups of AMAZING temperament.
>
> 3. Exotic queen of wonderful temperament, can do anything with this cat, she even comes when you call her. Mated to stud E. 3 kittens all so nervous I could not sell them.
> Same queen mated to stud F a year later. 4 kittens that ended up so over friendly even if you push them off your lap 20 times, they still come back for more. The male I kept, now full sized, you can literally hang upside down and all he does is purr and come back for more.
>
> 4. Another Exotic queen,&nbsp; average temperament, perfectly happy to be handled etc, mated to stud E. The resulting kittens reared TOGETHER with the litter to stud F from the example above. Kittens still nervous and avoiding people, despite the other litter of the same age (well 6 days difference) being in the same room and actively seeking out people.

Goldmali, are the examples in chronological order per mother? ie. in example 1 was the litter from stud A the dams first litter and the litter from stud B the dams second litter and so on for each example? If so, your examples also read as first litters all resulted in poor temperament and second litters resulted in great temperament.
If that is the case, nurture could be argued as (I'd have thought) parenting changes for the second litter. I know that for myself, with my first baby I was much more nervous and worried about everything, with my second baby I was very laid back & confident, as babies, my first was a moaner that found it hard to settle, my second was amazingly laid back and contented.

IF your examples are of first & second litters, in the order listed, it would be very interesting to see the results of a first-time litter sired by stud F (it would be also interesting to see a second-time litter sired by stud E, but I can't imagine you'd want to risk that!)

Goldmali - Can I just ask, of the pups/kittens you've bred that have had nervous/suspect temperaments, and you've kept, had any adverse effects on other dogs/cats in your household (both those that have come before and after)?

No, not in the slightest. I have some dogs and cats that are VERY outgoing (as in won't leave even visitors alone), living with ones that are nervous, it's made no difference on either.

IF your examples are of first & second litters, in the order listed, it would be very interesting to see the results of a first-time litter sired by stud F (it would be also interesting to see a second-time litter sired by stud E, but I can't imagine you'd want to risk that!)

Interesting point. I've just checked, and I have had one other litter from stud E, that was also to a first time mother. That was the very first litter he sired and those were okay. Not in the "won't leave you alone, loving everyone" way, but quite a bit different to the others -I had forgotten this as it was a few years ago. I didn't keep any kittens as they weren't what I hoped for, but two of the owners from that litter are in touch and are very happy with the temperaments of their cats -one seems particularly laid back despite being red. As for F, he's only sired the two litters so far but will at some point go to a maiden I'm sure so that will be interesting.

All of the examples though, cats and dogs, have been excellent mothers first time round, not showed any signs of anything bad, not acted any different the same time around that I could see.

As to whether a nervous dog could affect other dogs.

My last two dogs who spent most of their lives together, both had nervous issues. Older dog was scared of all sorts and very scatty, but loved people and other dogs. Younger dog, as mentioned in an earlier post, behaved aggressively to strangers and other dogs. Neither affected the other. If I was out with both dogs and I could see someone approaching wanting to say hello to the dogs, I would push older dog forward and she would gladly welcome a stroke from the stranger. Younger dog would then realise it was ok and then shove her way through so she could be stroked. Older dog was terrified of fireworks, younger dog hung out of the window to watch them. Their innate characters never changed, they just had to be managed.

But Quarantine is a different thing from actual no contact.  Quarantine kennels I've used have lovely staff and folk coming and going constantly so I wouldn't say that dog wouldn't be socialised.  I meant more a kind of puppy farm environment?  No nice contact whatsoever.

Well,  I didn't say I don't think nature has anything to do with it, I just meant I believe nurture has more impact on the final 'dog'.  I bred a cocker and she hasn't met her mum since she left at 8 weeks.  She is just over a year old and honestly, she is her mother.  She has EVERYONE of her characteristics.  Everything!  It's really is strange.  They seem like they've been cloned!
But then, take my GSD.  She has been raised with spaniels and now has the instincts and nature of a spaniel.  She flushes birds and zooms about with them through the bushes.  She has absolutely no interest in herding!lol  Couldn't tell me what a sheep is! But knows the difference between a duck and a seagull.

A dog in Quarantine will only see their kennel maid, any visitors have to be booked and locked in, so not a daily experience.

No matter how nice kennel staff are the contact will be fairly brief as in feeding and cleanout.

The runs have to be double fenced, with a perimeter fence also, and in the one we used the runs faced a tall hedge, so no comings and goings to see, I assume to minimise barking.  the dogs could see tall vehicles like tractors and lorries if they drove past.

I visited for an hour and a half twice a week.  In that time I did some training, trotting on led standing for titbit and general manners.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">She has absolutely no interest in herding!lol

I don't think a GSD has been bred with herding in mind for a very long time.  Dogs being dogs will all hunt, and of course learn from you or their canine companions.  Just the same as the Rottie that herds sheep, but of course they were originally a droving dog.

Yes, and all the things we select for, herding, retrieving, stalking, are all just truncated bits of the hunting sequence anyway, so not that difficult for any dog to revert, if context is right.

>No, not in the slightest. I have some dogs and cats that are VERY outgoing (as in won't leave even visitors alone), living with ones that are nervous, it's made no difference on either.

I can testify to this!!! After having alot of cuddles off Mariannes dogs and Cats (tried to remove a few under my jumper but we got caught!!!)
Lea :)

(tried to remove a few under my jumper but we got caught!!!)

That's because a Maine Coon is a bit big to fit under your jumper LOL!!

I can so understand why you wanted to escape with a Maine Coon under the jumper :)
next time take a trench coat ;) :)

I will be interested re the Nature/Nurture or Neurology combo.
As I have a 10 week old (will be 11 weeks old this coming Friday pup)
Her 3 litter siblings sadly died over the first two weeks from being born.

She has only really had interaction with the adult dogs I have here.
She also was hand reared for a lot of time and her mother because she is poorly hasn't felt like
playing much etc.
I have taken pup out and about for socialisation so far in my arms (although she's now getting rather
big and too wriggly to stay still) Can't wait for when she has her 2nd injection and is able to go out for
the first time on a lead on her own four paws.
But will be interested to see the effect of the lack of siblings has on her social skills with other dogs.
So am keen to get her to training/socialising asap as she is a bit full on and a wild child with my adults.
She has seemed to have chosen my big lad with behavioural issues as her favourite play friend.
Only trouble is where he plays rough and is OTT she is thinking that's the correct play technique to use.
He's the only one that really likes play as her Nanna is 10yo and although will play for short periods she
is a bit more measured in play. Mum just is generally grumpy towards her as she's had enough of the tornado
her daughter has become. Plus not being well I don't blame her for not wanting to be jumped on and having a
piranha attack from said pup.

Just like humans are affected by both nature and nurture; I believe so too are dogs.

Well if you look at this in its simplest form of explanation, we and every other animal on the planet are mostly what our genetics dictate, over billions of years we have all evolved, and the way we survive is by our ancestors passing on messaging via our genetics to help with that survival, along with health issues we are also programmed via genetics whether to stand and fight for territory or submit and hide to stay alive, the weak will be oust or should be, to make way for the strong in every species.

Today....... we manipulate that greatly in every single species.

But, regardless........ the genetics passed on, make us who we are and will always be the strongest part of anything born, there are hundreds, millions or billions of years behind that very thing being born.

Environment will absolutely effect things, so will nurture, but nature (genetics) is and always will be the greatest part of every living creature, because that is the one and only thing that will always be there and be passed on, with one purpose to initiate survival.

Weak or aggressive characters should not be continued genetically in domestic dogs for that very reason.

Yup and the case is also proved in an experiment where, over many generations, only wild silver foxes showing slightly less fear of novelty/ human proximity were bred from. The result was totally tame silver foxes that could be handled and cuddled.

Another experiment involved a deliberate breeding program to create a strain of incredibly nervous pointers- the dogs had such poor temperament that they could not cope with any contact with humans.

In the 60's Scott and Fuller did loads of studies on various breeds of dog across many generations, the studies were designed to explore the effects of genes on social behaviour.

Finally, there is an interesting review here: http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/maternal-influence-may-27-2012.pdf

That's a very interesting article.

However, how do you account for one puppy in a litter having a completely different temperament from his/her littermates? This despite every effort having been made to socialise, train etc.

Although a litter is all born at the ame time they're not identical; they all inherit a slightly different set of genes from their parents. So one might inherit nervousness that has come down from great-granddad!

Agreed. We are all born with slightly different genes, though there are obviously also many similar or even identical genes too. Assuming all the pups in your litter are sired by the same father I would suggest that you have to look at slight genetic differences plus environmental factors. It us hard to provide exactly the same environmental experience for each pup in a litter. The runt may get pushed around or have had a difficult birth, it may gave slight differences in hormonal makeup that shape the brain and then behaviour and temperament, the relationship between stress hormones and brain development us fascinating. It us a multifactorial, a mix of genes and environment.

Even looking at something like colour inheritance or certain diseases it is easy to see how a proportion if pups could share the same colour while one is a different colour, or the majority could be carriers fir a disease and only one has clinical signs. However, there are no identified genes for temperament- it is complex.