Ive tried the Kennel Club but they said they cant get involved in personal matters so im hoping someone here might be able to help.

I own a stud dog that doesnt live with me but with a friend who had previously used him at stud.  No money has passed hands and it was agreed that if anyone wanted to use him the stud fee would be mine, which has happened in the past.

She has recently informed me that her bitch has had another litter of which I knew nothing about and was told 3 days after the litter was born.  I have been told that it was an accident and I do understand that accidents happen but cant believe I wasnt informed until after the birth and no stud fee has been mentioned.  The bitch has had a litter by my dog previously in fact only 6 months ago.  A minimal fee was paid that time eventually after I had to remind her that I was owned something and this was then paid once the puppies had been sold in two instalments.  Nothing has been mentioned about a stud fee this time and I feel that I shouldnt agree to her registering the puppies until she has paid me something.  She will register the pups online so I dont have to sign a form and will received a letter from the KC but as I said previously they didnt seem to want to help.

I really dont know what to do and am very upset that my dog has been used without me being told until after they were born and hope someone on here can point me in the right direction. 

Thanks

None of my business but in these circumstances ....
its easy to see how this situation could have broken down to this.

From the KC Litter reg form

CONFIRMATION OF MATING TO BE SIGNED BY OWNER(S) OF SIRE
I/we hereby certify that the dam named as identified to me/us was mated to the sire on the date indicated and that the sire was recorded as owned by me/us on that date. I/we have read the instructions for completion of this form and agree to be bound by and submit to the Kennel Club Rules and Regulations as the same may be amended from time to time.

If they have no actual proof(ie you haven't witnessed the mating)that you dog mated the bitch, surely the when you get the KC letter you can inform them that you did not witnees the mating & ergo cannot confirm that your dog is the sire & that you did not consent to the mating as the bitch had had a previous litter within a year ?

Agree with both of above posts.

Re. KC let's hope that it will abide by said 'Rules and Regulations'.Furthermore, the KC should not be registering puppies out of bitches who have whelped six months previously. Where is the concern for health and welfare ? Isn't there a code of ethics regarding breeding practice ? Oh, wait a minute ! the riposte will be that it only applies to ABS members . But I know they bend the rules quite for the ABS too.
So, Dorastar, let's hope that the KC will not register the litter but this situation could have been foreseen and should have been avoided.

Jan, the rules on frequency of litters is the same for ABS and none ABS, the only way it differs is for licensed breeders, who should not be able to register 2 litters in a 12 month period from 1 bitch.  So if the OP's friends is licensed then the litter will not be able to be registered.

I woudl suggest the best course of action would be to contact the KC asap, in writing, and say that you forsee a potential problem and that the owner of "XXXX" (bitches name) did not have your permission to mate the bitch to your dog, you have not signed a Litter form and will not be doing so, and that no online litter application should be accepted.

Sorry about my illiterate reply (quite ?) I'm a bit tired tonight. Does that mean that ABS and non ABS  breeders are free to breed within 11-12 month period ? If so, I'm shocked and wonder what I am signed up to.

Re. online litter registration, haven't there been problems with registrations being accepted and documents issued without the stud dog owner's consent ? Seem to remember a thread about this.

No money has passed hands, the dog lives with someone else, but he's yours. And now you are annoyed because this person has used the dog without your knowledge and doesn't want to pay anything (meanwhile she looks after him and you appear to have no participation in his care) ??? this is all just too weird for me, as a mere pet owner and rescuer. Two things leap out at me from this sad tale-- 1) that the male dog doesn't have an owner who loves him or a real home of his own and 2) that the bitch has had two litters with only six months between them. Poor dogs.

Apart from the bitches owner getting money from selling puppies, what skin is it off your nose? 5ml of semen which the male will replenish in a day.
I'm afraid I find it difficult to empathise.

If the dog lives elsewhere, and that person presumably pays for all the food and upkeep, surely the least they would be entitled to is a mating or stud fee. The dog I co-own lives with my friend and she pays food and vet fees so therefore she gets any stud fees.

Does that mean that ABS and non ABS  breeders are free to breed within 11-12 month period ? If so, I'm shocked and wonder what I am signed up to.

What on earth would be the problem with a bitch going 12 months between litters? If a bitch hasn't recovered fully within that time I would wonder what quality she is and what care she receives! There could be a million reason for why it may be necessary to let a bitch have a litter a year after the previous one. Imagine how annoying if she was mated and gave birth  364 days after the previous litter  and therefore could not have the pups registered!!

I'm afraid I would be more concerned for the welfare of the bitch having two litters in such a short period of time rather than the money I would be owed!

Sorry Goldmali but I what I meant was mating a bitch 6-7 months following a litter. My girls usually have 6 monthly cycles , although over the years we've had girls going 9-10 months. Certainly six months post partum my girls look pretty 'dragged out' , certainly in no state to bear another litter.This despite excellent care and nutrition.
I had five consecutive pregnancies and am still recovering 30 years later !

If the dog has you registered as the KC owner then of course you do not need to sign the paperwork and IMO you quite rightly shouldn't.

If the dog is owned solely by yourself for the use as a stud dog if and when, (which I too can understand as sometimes people do not have room for more dogs or mixed sexes and so let them be homed elsewhere with just the benefit of stud arrangements) then she has royally broken that agreement.

She absolutely should pay IMO the full stud dog price as she of course will get any benefit of the litter whelped, the stud dog is your line and should be under your control, and that was your agreement, she has no need for an accidental litter as there is alizin to take care of that also, this was completely deceptive of her and possibly motivated by greed as there really are not that many reason to do a back to back breeding of a bitch. :-(

If your agreement was in a written contract use it and charge her, with a few choice words of her behaviour, I've known people re-claim a stud for a lot less than that, if this was a verbal agreement between friends, I'm sorry but to put it bluntly.... your stuffed!  It would be your word against hers as to the arrangements.

Will she be permitted to register the litter as a 12 month gap is required? My understanding of this rule is that they can register in certain circumstances, but this is for 11 month gaps for irregular seasons.  Or is this only applicable to Assured Breeders which if that is the case is ludicrous?

Also you have to consent to the registration as owner of the sire do you not?

Sorry Goldmali but I what I meant was mating a bitch 6-7 months following a litter.

Then we're in agreement. :) I'd never even consider anything that wasn't as close to one year as you can get. Normally I don't do that either, I just acknowledge there may be times when it may be necessary.

Will she be permitted to register the litter as a 12 month gap is required?

Only LICENSED breeders have to stick to that, nobody else. Which essentially is to safeguard bitches in puppy farms etc (not that I for a moment think it makes any difference, sadly) -but giving the responsible breeder some extra leeway.

Will she be permitted to register the litter as a 12 month gap is required?

Yes. :-(

Only licensed breeders cannot do this.

Ditto Goldmali, had to take a phone call in-between posting.

I didn't know that, it should be a standard for any KC breeder IMO. :(

I didn't know that, it should be a standard for any KC breeder IMO. :-(

Better to make it 11 months in that case. Absolutely nothing wrong with a bitch in good condition having one litter and then having a second around a year  later -but if the rules applied to everyone, pups born even 364 days later could not be registered. Like I said before, there could be all sorts of reasons. Such as: You have a litter and the bitch ended up with only one sex, and not the sex you really wanted/needed, so plan to mate her again after a year. If she then gives birth as much as one day early, under such a proposed rule the pups could not be registered. You may not want or be able to wait 18 months, due to for instance time of year, or the bitch getting too old, or the stud dog you want to use going to stay in America for a few years, or being sold, or ANYTHING. Or you may have a bitch that goes a year in between seasons!

> Better to make it 11 months in that case.

Agreed :)

To be fair, I would have been rather cross if I had been penalised when this genuinely happened to me.  I have a small breed, normal litter size 1-3 pups.  My top bitch had a litter in January several years ago.  She had another season 5 months later, when she was not mated.

Her next season was early too.  I definitely wanted a 2nd litter from her, because she was from the lines that formed the basis of my breeding programme.  So, I took my bitch to the vet and asked for a complete check, and asked if it would be ethical to breed from her again.  As she only has 2 pups, and had lost no condition at all, he said that it would be fine to go ahead.  He said that it isn't the carrying of a litter that was the problem, it was the rearing of them, and 2 pups was not going to wear her out.  I spay my bitches at 4 years old anyway and I decided to mate my bitch again.

She whelped the second time at something like 10 days short of the 12 months.  The KC had no problem with registering my litter.

> Better to make it 11 months in that case.

but then you run into the scenario with bitches who have longer gaps between their seasons. If a bitch has say 10 months between seasons and is getting older you might not want to wait 20  months to have a litter. Lets face itl responsible breeders will breed ethically and irresponsible ones wont. If they can't register the pups I imagine they will still be able to sell them unregistered and make some money. I really don't think not being able to register pups is enough of a deterent to stop people breeding a litter

In my breed small litters are common.
Puppy producers, BYB and Puppy farmers get huge litters very commonly....Hmmmmmm
No problems for them the 12 month rule. License or no license they breed every season and register them to another bitches.