With today's tragic death of a little girl by their family dog do you think that the Government will be forced into a knee jerk reaction towards bull breeds or dogs in general?
Mick Martin (Dog Borstal) was recently interviewed on my local BBC radio station and in his opinion no-one should have/need more than one pet dog.

Well that's most of us stuffed then, and why would anyone breed?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mountsorrel-dog-attack-lexi-hudson-2680156

> Mick Martin (Dog Borstal) was recently interviewed on my local BBC radio station and in his opinion no-one should have/need more than one pet dog.

Perhaps those of us(& there is quite a few) who own more than one dog, make up for those who have a gapping hole in their lives & have no dog!!

So it was a rescue dog they got from the pound and only had it for a weeks to two months (some say weeks some say two months), It also says she use to try to walk it on a lead but it kept pulling and pulled her over a few times so sounds like they were having some problems controlling it. To me it sounds like the pound/rescue rehomed the dog to an unsuitable home for it and once settled in its true nature came out.

Not all rescues are good so I'd say it might be time to sort out these rescues, one by us that is now closed would let you take home any dog if you had the money, a friend's house mate went for a look and wanted an akita they had, the kennel worker told her not to get it as its got aggression issues and had tryed to bite her, she didn't listen and the rescue was happy to let her have the dog even though she had no experience with breeds like that and has a little kid. It went for her kid, attacked her other dogs and bitten her a bunch of times, it's aggressive over food and things and fear aggressive. They sold it off as she was afraid of it (advertised it as great with kids and dogs) it went to a home who had had the breed befor but they couldn't keep it and they have it back again.

My aunty had a dog years ago when the dogs trust was the ncdl, she told them she had young kids and was recommended a dog who the person side would be perfect. After a few weeks it nipped one of the kids, they assumed the kid had been teesing the dog, then a week later it happened again. Then a few days later it completely freaked out and went mental trying to attack anything that moved. Her husband had to put on a load of coats to get hold of it which ended up ripped to pieces. They called the rescue and were told to take it to vets and put it down. They had to shut it in the boot and once at the vets and after the vet slammed the boot on it when it tryed to attack them when they opened the door it was put down in the boot as they couldn't get it out. When they went back to the rescue to complain it turns out on the dogs records it said it was aggressive with kids and not to rehome with any aged kids but the worker didn't notice this when they recommended the dog to them.

>Mick Martin (Dog Borstal) was recently interviewed on my local BBC radio station and in his opinion no-one should have/need >more than one pet dog.

The family only had this one dog, according to the report.    So what difference has that made?

Have to say, I've been told by many owners of dogs both large and small "he/she is great with kids"   but what I've seen is a dog who is not happy.   Maybe not ready to act, but not happy and relaxed      :-(      Just because a dog doesn't grumble, growl, or snap, doesn't mean that dog is safe.  

So now we know the breed, why on earth was a dog this size, with a history of abuse, rehomed to somebody living in what I've read described as a small flat ?. Poor girl and mum, and poor dog.

> Have to say, I've been told by many owners of dogs both large and small "he/she is great with kids" but what I've seen is a dog who is not happy. Maybe not ready to act, but not happy and relaxed. Just because a dog doesn't grumble, growl, or snap, doesn't mean that dog is safe.

That's one thing I'd never be comfortable about claiming. Which is why the best rescues refuse to rehome dogs to people with children.
There is just too much misinterpretation of canine body language already, without secondhand ambiguity.

>Have to say, I've been told by many owners of dogs both large and small "he/she is great with kids"   but what I've seen is a dog who is not happy.   Maybe not ready to act, but not happy and relaxed      :-(      Just because a dog doesn't grumble, growl, or snap, doesn't mean that dog is safe.

And here is someone with an understanding of dogs and their body language (Dill I mean.)  Most pet dog owners know very little about dogs.  I have heard people say "he knew he did wrong, he wouldn't look at me."  No, the dog was quite happily chewing the sofa, feeling no guilt at all.  The reason the dog is averting his gaze from you is appeasement, because you are yelling at the top of your voice in anger.  Oh Dill, when will people learn about their choice of pet before getting it?

> Most pet dog owners know very little about dogs.  I have heard people say "he knew he did wrong, he wouldn't look at me."  No, the dog was quite happily chewing the sofa, feeling no guilt at all.  The reason the dog is averting his gaze from you is appeasement, because you are yelling at the top of your voice in anger.

Not helped at all by a certain TV dog trainer who many people regard as gospel. Especially those who don't quest for further knowledge.... need I say more?

I despair, I really do.

I have found that most people give no more thought to having a dog, beyond "want it, will have it"     No thought as to whether the dog is suitable, or if they are suitable for the dog.   In addition, I know very few people who actually know/understand anything about dogs and their behaviour/needs or even want to :-(

Personally, I wouldn't have a rescue dog, with children, unless I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the dog was sound.   I have had rescue dogs with children, but these dogs were known personally.  Their character with children and other dogs was also known, beyond just the owner's say so.    Their behaviour and character around children had been observed over months by my dog-savvy dad and myself, before we even considered taking them on.    In addition, both dogs were small enough that they  could be easily controlled if necessary.     Despite all this, neither dog was ever left alone with a vulnerable child.

Sadly, I have observed that the less a person understands dogs, the more likely they are to take risks with their own children and others :-(       (and I'm including dog rescues in this too :-( )

> Sadly, I have observed that the less a person understands dogs, the more likely they are to take risks with their own children and others :(and I'm including dog rescues in this too :-( )

Spend a little time on FB pet selling groups and you will weep.

>Spend a little time on FB pet selling groups and you will weep.

I can't go there :-(     my blood pressure won't take it.      I see and hear enough locally to make my blood boil

I have found that most people give no more thought to having a dog, beyond "want it, will have it"     No thought as to whether the dog is suitable, or if they are suitable for the dog. 

And it gets more complicated, too. In the past week I have been contacted by two families interested in buying a puppy of my rather specialised breed. Both came across as well informed and intelligent, told me they had experience of dogs of various breeds, had researched a lot and decided this was the breed for them, and were trying hard to find a responsible breeder as so many that are out there and advertising are anything but. I believe both found me via the KC AB listings. So not at all your average ill informed people. However, once I had asked a few questions and also told just a few pointers about the breed's good and BAD points, BOTH had the exact same outcome. They said they now realised the breed wasn't for them after all, and BOTH admitted that actually, the wife of the family was never very keen to start with.

Had I not taken the time to tell them about the problems/challenges they will most likely encounter, chances are these two families would both have ended up buying a puppy totally unsuitable for them, whether from me or anyone else.

>> I can't go there :-( my blood pressure won't take it.  I see and hear enough locally to make my blood boil

Unfortunately it represents the majority these days. Dogs are a commodity.... and ultimately, disposable.
It's useless to pretend this isn't going on. My blood pressure doesn't thank me for looking, but it has to be done to acquire the bigger picture.
And before you say Other people can do that, many don't, so I am the Other.

Marianne,

I'm currently trying to avert a similar disaster :-(

A friend's daughter, a teacher, is adamant that she is going to have a puppy.   Except, she is out of the house for at least 10 hours a day.    She is expecting friend to step in, but friend doesn't want another dog, especially as she will have all the 'work' and the daughter will do as she pleases regarding feeding, walking, training, brushing - as in, there won't be any of the latter, and the poor pup will be fed until it bursts then fed more     daughter will also expect mum to have the dog weekends and during the holidays.    Been there done it all before, and friend has had all the vets bills and worry when the poor dog was suffering from the effects of overfeeding.  She was also the one who had to take the old dog for PTS, daughter wouldn't face it.   It's like watching a train crash in slow  motion.

Friend is really upset.   Daughter is a bully, she knows all the right things to tell breeders and is as good as any puppy farmer at talking the talk.    Very good at ignoring anything she doesn't want to hear       I could scream with frustration :-/

It's one of my biggest hates about a few of the rescues I used to deal with, turnover of dogs seemed far more important then assessing them, dogs would come in, be vet checked and put up for rehoming if they showed no aggressive tendencies, as you can imagine little was known and many dogs were returned for problems that showed up later !!!

People wander in look around see a dog they like with no thought to it's needs etc, I remember once I was walked a lovely greyhound and this family had just spent some time with a collie that they were considering, I chatted to them and it seems they wanted something laid back that didn't need loads of exercise, who had told them a collie was suitable ?

Guess what, they took the greyhound out next and loved it

My sister's daughter in law recently went to dogs trust for a rescue and she was given a dog that had been returned twice for biting others, she had no previous experience of dogs and was nearly bitten twice over food aggresion so that one went back then she got a staffie from another rescue :(
My auntie wanted a new puppy last year and on and on I went about ok if you can't afford a ped puppy of your choice research and get a rescue, nope they got a rottie x shar pei cross puppy for 400 pound :( they took ot to training twice said it was boring and now the  dog is so unruly no one will visit, my sister gets covered in bruises when she visits.

This is so distressing :(

I'm kind of at the point of accepting that the general public are completely ignorant when bringing any dog into their homes.  I mean, people just don't know when they're ignorant do they?

And if they go to an organisation that is supposed to be experienced with dogs, those lacking in common sense should be able to trust their judgment and advice. I couldn't believe the size of that dog.

Yes people are stupid, but a rescue that lets a specialist breed of unknown background (possibly abused), go to a home with a small child is just plain irresponsible.

Maybe it's time that rescues are more regulated, so if a breed like this comes in, then it is PTS if an experienced home cannot be found within a certain amount of time.

no-one should have/need more than one pet dog.

As it shows in this article it only takes one dog to do the damage. Did the pound not do a home check on this woman and if they did then did they really think that a small flat was suitable for such a large dog ........

One answer in the newspaper clip suggested all large dogs be banned, it shows that they know nothing about dogs as I have heard of a JRT killing a baby, so do they suggest ALL dogs are banned., Perhaps we should ban all animals, horses for maybe throwing and killing a rider, cows for stampeding and killing dog walkers, my friends husband was head butted by a sheep and had emergency surgery for head injuries, and my chickens could peck a baby to death   and on and on. Perhaps we need to treat animals correctly and learn all we can about that animals lifestyle and needs, learn to understand the animal and to read the signs. Perhaps there should be an 'owners' licence where you have to prove you have knowledge of dogs before being allowed to own one, rather like the driving test.

Sorry rant over as I step down from my soapbox.
BTW I had a very thorough home check from the RSPCA when I got my Beagle recently, even though I have had dogs all my life, and I found this very reassuring and didn't mind the questions regarding if I was capable at all.

I have watched both American and Australian rescue problems and they put down any dog that shows e.g. food aggression, possessiveness of toys etc,  or any negative behaviours, and only adopt out the placid ones.

Seems harsh as many of the very stressed dogs can be turned around, but they can't take the risk because of litigation.

Many people do not have the knowledge or experience required to deal with anything but a very easy going placid dog, even with a blank page (a puppy) they can get it very wrong (and of course these often end up in rescue).

Now Daybreak are reporting that all dogs should be muzzled around children under 12 :o :o
Words fail me :( :(
Lea

i suspect the dog did not come from an offical rescue as I don't think any offical rescue would rehome to a one bedroom flat with no garden. 
net is full of dogs being sold on by people who are desperate to get rid having taken on more then they can handle-and new owners get the buzz of 'oh we rescued', old owners would lie through teeth just to see back of out of control dog  without having to admit ruined their dog and have pts..and its cheap for new owner and there are no checks. you can get any huge unsuitable dog for peanuts.

utterly beyond me what parents are thinking when they do this. I would not consider a dog I did not know the back ground inside out of with children. kids come before dogs and if that means a lot of dogs rejected by first owners get pts so be it- better that then child deaths.

There was some comment about the mum have joined a social networking site not fb that is for people looking for a dog. Not a rescue just gp passing odgs around it seemd. However she got the dog what aterrible thing to happen for all involved. unfortunately the ddb is becoming another fashion breed which means its getting into the hands of inexperienced owners

> kids come before dogs and if that means a lot of dogs rejected by first owners get pts so be it- better that then child deaths.

Definitely :( And we all know that experienced dog owners/breeders make mistakes (unintended pregnancies, fights between dogs etc etc) so inexperienced/less knowledgeable people are even more likely to make mistakes :( I was petrified of my inlaws CKCS when it came to stay and I had a baby/toddler - it had bitten my FIL before. I was very relieved when it had to be PTS due to ill-health. Goodness knows what it must be like to live with such a massive dog and have children around one unsupervised :)

Mick Martin (Dog Borstal) was recently interviewed on my local BBC radio station and in his opinion no-one should have/need more than one pet dog.

So silly, it only takes one dog to bite or sadly kill and who knows which it will be in cases like this, you could have 10 who would never bite or one that will. Dog ownership is all about firstly, choosing the right breed, training, buying from reputable breeders, and vigilance....... taking nothing for granted.

As a breeder I always have that 'hard to shift' ruling of not homing pups to homes with under 7's most rescues also stick to this and I will always back it up, people get complacent with dogs and young children, and without reputable rescues and breeders vetting properly mistakes and accidents frequently happen.

Two lives have sadly been lost and it most definitely should have been avoided........ the mother will live with this forever.

I see Dog World is now reporting that the police have issued a statement the DDB in the photos is NOT the dog that attacked the child, and the police is working to "determine" the breed. http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/103585

When I was growing up dogs were dogs and they were treated like dogs.   Nowadays, most people I know treat them either like soft toys or babies.  Both are bad, and wrong for the dog :(

But also, people used to grow up and take responsibilty by the time they were 21.  Now, we have 'adults' of 30+  behaving like teenagers and not taking responsibility for their actions, they expect others to pick up the pieces with no thought of consequences.

Lets face it, this terrible tragedy, yet again, was probably avoidable.   Both by the parent, who shouldn't have got a huge breed of unknown history, and the person who passed it on to her.   Both child and dog have paid the price.

None of this is helped by ignorant idiots campaigning and vociferating in the media about dogs, whether about muzzling, about how many dogs people can keep, what breeds should be banned, or that all dogs should be microchipped - unless there is going to be a prosecution for passing on a dangerous dog, but I fail to see how that could be persued or proven.

This was a people problem more than a dog problem, and should be seen as such.   It's about time the Kennel Club officially reminded the public that dogs are not fluffy toys, they are animals which come with responsibility, and their behaviour and potential for harm, is largely down to the people who keep them.

In the news yesterday, it was reported that a sheep farmer has been killed by a stag which attacked him.   He had apparently diversified into venison.  Nowhere in the media have I seen any calls for deer to be banned, stags to be 'dehorned' or similar idiotic ideas.  Why?  What is the perceived difference?   That dogs are pets, and therefore should behave like stuffed toys?

Doesn't surprise me that they are using the wrong picture, it obviously seems to be a dog of that type, but I don't understand why they are carrying out tests to determine what breed/s the dog was, what's the point in that? It's not on the DDA list so does it matter?

People will continue to buy dogs they cannot handle, not much anyone can do about that either, human error will continue to kill young children and all the outcry gets us nowhere, it seems every year there is some poor child killed and so many more injured.

No-one is ever going to step in and make dog ownership something that everyone has to be vetted for, only reputable rescues and breeders care enough to do that, so this will continue to happen over and over again.

It is also a shame that a dogs microchip does not carry information about it's history with regards to rescue dogs, maybe that is something that can be implemented.

Police now seem to have confirmed it was a DDBx according to lbc.  Dont see it matters too much as Carrington said whatever breed it wasnt  on the DD list

I see sky news has a photo section of "dangerous dogs" all the usual breeds they jump on :(

>People will continue to buy dogs they cannot handle, not much anyone can do about that either, human error will continue to kill young children >and all the outcry gets us nowhere, it seems every year there is some poor child killed and so many more injured.

You're right there.  Which is why the justice system needs to make owners responsible for the deaths and punish them accordingly.  The owner of the dogs who killed Jade Anderson was prosecuted for animal cruelty!!, not for keeping dangerous dogs and allowing a child to be left alone and killed by them.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24580312

This sends a message to the general population that there is no responsibility if your dog attacks and harms/kills     Until that happens we will continue to see these attacks.

I cannot find words to express my sadness at this. My heart goes out to Lexi's Mom and the loss of a child should make the World cry.

How can we legislate for people who have no "common sense" when "common sense" is in fact as rare as hens teeth it appears.
What we have created is a World is to invite/introduce into our homes dogs who for centuries if not longer have been bred with various purposes in mind; we have moved them from there normal environment; restricted their exercise; not given them a purpose or role and in expect them to be quiet and unresponsive almost for 22 out of 24 hours and then to almost be "available on a whim" dogs are not bred or wired to be treated in such a way. And innocents are paying the price.

> Which is why the justice system needs to make owners responsible for the deaths and punish them accordingly

I can't see that prosecuting this child's mother will achieve anything :(

I can't see that prosecuting this child's mother will achieve anything :-(

No, she has surely already had the very WORST punishment she could ever imagine. Yet even people knowing that dogs can and do kill does not make them act with enough care, they all just assume it won't happen to THEM. Hence it won't make the slightest bit of difference whatever punishment they can get. I'm sure any mother would consider the death of their child a million times worse than even being imprisoned for life! Indeed even worse then dying themselves. Punishment will only ever make any kind of sense if the dogs were owned by somebody else and in a public place (think Ruhksana Khan as an example) -hence I don't see the point in changing the DDA at all.

I can however see a case for suing the rescue that rehomed the dog to the family with at the very least negligence, if not manslaughter

Police are now saying it was a Bulldog.
http://www.leics.police.uk/news-appeals/news/2013/11/06/police-confirm-breed-of-dog-involved-in-the-incident-in-mountsorrel#.UnpV2uL4CKI

Which came first the dog being stabbed or the dog attacking ? A Bulldog ?? What "type"of Bulldog ? English show, "Olde Tyme" ? "American" ? ????????

There is only ONE breed of dog officially named Bulldog, without any prefixes, and yes, it seems unlikely to me! Too many people invent their own names for breeds or call it something half and half eg. a Spaniel, a Retriever, a Bulldog.

I am well aware of that, but like many none dog people the police will include all the designer mongrels in with the real Bulldog by calling the dog concerned a Bulldog. I cannot see any council pound selling a real Bulldog for £50 can you ?

Just seen a photo of the dog with the little girl. Looks like a DDB to me.

The photo is of the girl & her uncle's dog that was not involved

According to the Guardian report the dog came from a boarding kennels and cattery

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/06/dog-attack-death-lexi-branson-tributes-leicestershire

Which of course could take in strays for the local authority making it in effect a pound as opposed to rescue
Having cleared pounds for a local rescue, I doubt they did much beyond feed it whilst it was held, they may have done more  but I doubt we will ever know,
You just pay the minimum amount required by the local authority to take the dog once the legal days are up for the owner to reclaim.
Not sure there would be any come back on the kennel as they are just a holding place and if no one comes forward to take the dog it can legally be destroyed 

I may have missed it but was it a proper rehoming or a Facebook / Preloved pets for free jobby? If it was a rehome centre it needs closing with immediate effect. About time Facebook banned all such livestock trading sites. Yes they'll always find a way to trade but why openly condone it by allowing these pages?

It's totally devastating for this family and I am not heartless, but I find myself asking what they thought a dog of such size and energy was going to do  couped up in a flat?

Playing devils advocate here for a minute, but we don't actually know what went on with the re-homing of this dog, so many people do tell lies from the people who hand in a dog, the rescue/pounds real history behind a dog and also people who apply for puppies and dogs from all sources do lie and pretend that they do not have young children, we don't know for sure what went on.

She was a beautiful little girl, the mother has not only lost her and will have a lifetime of weeping for her child but she also had to stab a dog to death which she will also no doubt have terrible nightmares about, whether people want to blame a rescue or whoever, ultimately the mother chose that dog to come and live with her little girl, she was supposed to protect her........ dog choice is down to the owner, no-one makes someone have a dog. :-(

from the Leicester City Council

Stray dogs collected will be taken to Willow Tree Kennels, 95 Nottingham Road, Barrow Upon Soar, Leicestershire, LE12 8HZ, Tel: 07761549180.


Orchard Kennels

Willow Tree is a new venture at Orchard Kennels.
Leicester City Council have a contract with us whereby strays found in the LCC area are brought to the kennels.
We have a dedicated kennel block and kennel assistants for these dogs and if they are unclaimed after 7 days, they are available for rehoming.

All dogs available for rehoming will be micro chipped and given flea treatments.
To cover costs of their food and care, a charge will be made of between £50-£100.

The dog's photograph has just been on Channel 5 News & it was not a Bulldog it is a designer dog(looks like an American Bulldog) & apparently was found in a local park !!

Interestingly their FB page has disappeared !

Also quoted on the channel 5 news site.

The attack has led for renewed calls for dogs to be muzzled around children under 12.

What is the world coming to............. it's not the dogs, it's the owners! So many people should never be allowed a dog.

It has been quoted that the little 4 year old girl often was seen playing with the dog, what does that mean, what kind of play? Was the mother even watching?

The world has gone mad, I agree with Dills earlier post, people do not see dogs as dogs anymore, they are predators with instincts, not toys.

I hate to say it but can see no other way, dogs are much like tortoises in my day, everyone had them, even if they did not look after them properly, then the prices went through the roof and not many people have them now, maybe dogs should start at ridiculous prices too to stop this 'handbag throw away society' we have.

Education isn't working, no matter how many times this happens no-one but the victims seems to learn from it. :-(

>I can't see that prosecuting this child's mother will achieve anything

I'm not suggesting here that the mother should be prosecuted.   As has been said, she has been punished enough already and will somehow have to live with what has happened - I've no idea how anyone can get over, or past this :-(

But someone is responsible for selling her the dog.    In this case the rescue should take responsibility.     Unless it can be established that the mother lied about her cicumstances.

Not suggesting changing the DDA,    except to remove 'Breed' banning.     What needs to change is the justice system, and the will to prosecute owners of dogs that attack - whether in a public or private place.     Up to now, prosecution has only been possible if an attack took place in a public place.   

Regarding tortoises becoming rare - this is why    I doubt we could do this with dogs, and regarding silly prices for them to dissuade unsuitable buyers,  some dogs are changing hands already for silly money, and it's mostly unsuitable people buying them - often as a breeding machine!


Not suggesting changing the DDA,    except to remove 'Breed' banning. What needs to change is the justice system, and the will to prosecute owners of dogs that attack - whether in a public or private place. Up to now, prosecution has only been possible if an attack took place in a public place

Leaving dog owners open to prosecution if their dog hurts a burglar/housebreaker/trespasser ????????? Good idea ???

> Leaving dog owners open to prosecution if their dog hurts a burglar/housebreaker/trespasser ????????? Good idea

The new, proposed, legislation stipulates that it will only apply, in private properties, to someone who is permitted to be there - ie NOT a burglar etc