Hello everyone,

Even though its not a major problem, I thought I'd see if anyone out there has had a simmilar experience.
I've got a 9 year old border collie mix dog and a 11 month old GSD bitch.
It was pretty much clear from the start that Kyra (the bitch) was going to be in charge. At first the dog calmly seemed
to accept his fate, only putting up a fight over something really good like a bone.
Off late however, he has started attacking other dogs when we are out for a walk.
Kyra follows and chases him relentlessly, barking down his ear whenever she catches him and although we always try to stop her/distract her, he does not do anything to her but turn away or evade her.
As I said before on a few occasions now he has "attacked" (no more than a quick dash where he comes away with a bit of fur at the most)other dogs, mostly males and especially when they are on a leash.
Since we're aware of it now, we always make him heel when there are other dogs around until we are sure he's "friendly".
I really dont like doing that, as I want him to have the freedom he's always had.
There seem to be 2 theory's on this: 1. confirm Kyra's position as the one in charge (after us) and
2. Make Kyra the lower ranking dog by putting Misty in first place.
Any thoughts/advice?

Perhaps your dog kyra knows that he is not alpha and also knows that physical confrontations with the GSD are futile because he will be overpowered. As a result, he may be resorting to more subtle ways to substantiate her dominance.

It is to my understanding that in a dog pack, the theory dictates that the alpha male not only controls the pack, but also makes the decisions like when it's time to eat, who gets to eat and how much, where to sleep, etc.

Consequentially, kyra may be trying to assert her dominance by exhibiting alpha behavior in regards to "leading the pack" into a confrontation. Or perhaps he is simply trying to illustrate to the GSD that he is bold and brave and deserves to be alpha instead.

There may even be other subtle ways that he is tryng to establish his "worthyness" to the GSD. However, being that your border collie mix is clearly no match for a GSD and knows it, he does not wish to resort to a physical battle with the larger GSD.

You may have to start walking on a leash or employing some other methods of restraint until the behavior is resolved.

Please be sure to come back periodically and brief us with your progress!

Good luck!

Best Regards,
Oblivious

Hi
IMHO...I would lay down the law with Kyra..you are the Alpha...it's not a case of which dog will be in charge of the other..it's you deciding as the Alpha what is acceptable behaviour and what is not..in YOUR PACK.

Tracey :)

Im sorry tracey but i have to disagree.

Dogs live in a pack mentality and don't understand what democracy is. They can't be equal under one leader. They all must have a place in the chain of command. If you try to change or control the heirarchy, you may be messing with disaster.

Although i will agree that if you are extremely skilled and competent in reference to training dogs, then it MAY be possible. However, i do not think it is a task to be undertaken by a regular dog owner.

By knowing and accepting their place in the heirarchy, tranquility and peace is achieved and maintained.

This system has worked for dogs and wolves for thousands of years. To try and change this method may prove to be exceedingly intricate.

Overall, i strongly suggest you don't tamper with the hierarchy. However, it is a good idea to play he role of a cautious and vigilant spectator, interfering only when necessary.

Best regards,
Oblivious

The nine year old dog is stressed and acting out his stress, plain and simple. He has an 11 month old bitch (in both senses of the word in his view) adolescent, uppity, big youngster barking in his ear and trying to push him around. As a nine year old, he probably knows he cannot do what he would actually like to do - which would be for the two of them to fight it out and figure out who is alpha of the two. Not being able to sort things out in the proper, dog pack way is stressful for him as well. Hence, he now goes after dogs outside his immediate pack.

Youth and physical strength are not always the key determinants of pack position. Attitude is often more important.

Tracey is correct in that the pack leader, the human, has to lay down the law about what is and is not acceptable behaviour. That goes for both dog and bitch. Hopefully they will then sort out which is alpha before a fight between the two ensues. It's not which of the two is alpha that is important, it's just settling the order that is important to them.

Stacey

Hi Stacey
That's what I meant :) just didn't have time to go into it all at the time...
We as the human are the Alpha and HAVE to dictate the behaviour in our pack..
There will always be a pecking order within the pack, but as the Alpha we have to control how far the dominant dog goes...so if a dog goes beyond the level which is acceptable, we step in and reprimand.This doesn't mean that all dogs will be equal it just referees what's going on within the pack.If the most dominant dog is allowed to do as it likes to the other dogs, how long before it starts on the human ???
I would also add that having had several Gsds at one time..can you imagine what would happen if I let them sort it out between themselves...and what would happen if I tried to introduce a new one....Oh my God I dread to think !!!! :(

Tracey :)

Thanks for the input guys,

I do think of myself as a very no-nonsense "alpha" and they both know better than to cross the line with me! ;)
I want to restore peace and quiet in the pack a.s.a.p but in order to do that I will have to confirm the hierarchy
one way or the other. My issue is this: obviously Misty (the 9-year old male Border collie) is displaying unwanted behaviour caused
by the fact that he is asserting himself outside the pack now. If I punish this, I confirm his position as the underdog.
Alternatively I can try to take away his need to assert himself by restoring his position by feeding him first, fussing over him more etc..
Or I can go the other way and make him accept his role and confirming Kyra.
I havent quite figured out which way to go and before I start I want to make sure I can follow through.

Do you feel it is definitely down to pack hierarchy, or is it just that the young bitch is getting on Misty's nerves, as it may not be the same thing.

Misty may feel he can't tell the GSD off because he may feel he will displease you?

If you confirm Misty as the underdog, he may get more stressed - as presumably for years he has been either the only dog, or in a close position with you, his leader (sorry don't know all the circumstances, so have to guess a little bit :) )

I accept dogs have hierarchies between them, but they also have every day relationships and I feel this is often underestimated - which is why one dog will posture over say, a bone, but another dog may posture to THAT dog over other resources, or out on a walk it will be the boss, etc.

I think if i were in your shoes, i would exert control over either dog if and when necessary; as othershave said it is the human leader who has to ultimately guide/control the dogs in the pack. I have seen the pack sustem used effectively, and also seen it sadly cause more upset, when the so-called underdog was confirmed as just that - so I would only follow it to a point.

It's a difficult situation and I wish you luck with it :)

LIndsay

You definately have a point Lindsay, and I do control Kyra (GSD) as she is simply being obnoxious most the time.
Like you assumed, Misty has always been on his own with me.
I have only moved in with my bf about a year ago and that is when we also got Kyra at 9 weeks old.
I realise I have put Misty through some major changes there (moving, new bf, new dog etc) and from the start
I have put him in first place.
Now that Kyra is at an age that she can physically bully him, I find that if I affirm Misty like I have always done, she
makes his life a living hell, no matter how I correct her. (I've come to the point where I've physically made her submit to me keeping her
pinned down on the floor belly up), but she will turn around as soon as I take my eyes off her and start challenging Misty all over again.
As a sidenote: Kyra is a very shy and gentle GSD, she is downright submissive to anybody and everything xcept with Misty she turns into this demon dominatrix from hell :(( well.. thats a little exaggerated, but you get the drift :)

Tracey,

When I had four dogs at one time the pack order worked out as:

1- GSD - grande old lady, tolerant, smart and solid as a rock, but physically just about crippled from displaysia (spelling?)
2 - Yorkie - Smart, cunning, manipulative, and a real character
3 - Cairn - young, clever, carefree, constantly testing her limits, afraid of nothing (even when she should have been!)
4 - GSD - young, strong, not very smart (but very trainable), fearful

Rather a mix of sizes - but personality won out in terms of pack order.

Stacey

Hi Stacey

As you say in your case it's character that determines leadership, where as in the wild a physically impaired dog would be attacked and threatened until it became submissive and allowed it's opponent to become leader.
We have domesticated these animals and so we have already confused the natural way in which a pack works.Because of this we have to become the Alpha, if we allow our domesticated animals to completely live as a pack would in the wild we would be in serious trouble, and your top female would probably be chastised by the bottom of your pack at the moment for leadership..IMHO :)

I have 7 Gsd's and a x patterdale at the moment....3 adult males, 3 adult females ,and a 6 month female puppy...and the x patterdale who is also an adult male.
My top female went to doggy heaven in the latter part of last year, bless her.
She was quite small,excellent temperament, bomb proof and happy to get on with any other male/female but if they over stepped the mark she would open her mouth and give a deep growl..no barring of the teeth...but it worked ..and the one that was in trouble would then creep around her and lick her mouth.
I left her to get on with that, but if I thought she was getting to big for her boots, I would reprimand her with words in a deep voice..she knew then to behave.She would guard her food until the others had eaten and eat last..with her puppies she was just plain amazing, loved them to bits, allowed the other dogs to interact them and would even allow one of my Males ( Bombom ) to lay with the pups in the whelping box..when they were about two weeks old, she even fostered two pups within her own litter with no problem.So really she was top dog with a head on her shoulders I spose and understood diplomacy.
She was an absolute treasure, she kept them all in their place but was also gentle and trusting.
The two eldest Males however can't get along, they would fight...so I don't leave them to it, they are kept apart, but each of them will interact with all the others with no problems at all.
The others have their pecking order but there's not alot between them really, different characters but none aggressive, but they all know who's the big boss ha ha. :)

Tracey