Hi All

My husband and I are considering breeding in the future and are at the very start of our journey in weighing up all the considerations.  There are lots of things to consider in this decision and there is lots more research we need to do before we go ahead or decide it's not for us / our ladies.

One of the things I have no idea about and can't find any information on is KC registering puppies which are not breed standard colours.  We are on the waiting list for a white pug and hope we may have one to join our black girl next year if nature is kind to us.  Breed standard colours are only fawn and black and there is a lot of debate about whether a white pug is a real pug etc.  The breeder has the mum and the potential dad down as being KC registered.  I have not looked at the papers.

I know if my black girl has babies they will be KC reg no problem - she is KC reg, she'll have a KC reg B/F etc.  What I don't know about is if we had a white one whether it could be KC reg - do KC accept non breed standard colours on the registration or do people just register them as black or fawn?  If it's the latter then I would work on the basis any babies from our white lady would be non KC reg as I would not want to decieve / fiddle with paper work.

I'm very new to this so sorry if this is a silly question.

PS - if anyone else has any suggested reading on the matter of breeding please let me know.  Some of my friends are breeders and we discuss with them a lot, our vet and read online articles.  But if you have any good tips or reading I would be grateful.

Just making this very short -responsible breeding is all about the good of a breed, breeding to improve, and NO responsible breeder would ever dream of breeding from colours not accepted as that certainly isn't improving the breed. So much has to come before colour anyway -health, temperament and the correct type according to the breed standard. The way to get into breeding is to start showing your dogs for a fair few years, learn as much as possible about the breed, then you may take the step to breed. You have also picked one of the hardest breeds there is to breed from.

I presume the dog you are looking to get from Lithunia is a White Pug ? The Lithunian Kennel Club is part of the FCI & so will be bound by the FCI rules, if they allow the registration of white pugs then you will be able to register your imports pugs with the KC as the Pug standard has no disqualifying points.

However why on earth would anyone want to breed a non standard colour Pug(well any breed TBH)is beyond me, unless of course whiite Pugs command a higher price than standard colours ???

please look into health problems that white dogs suffer from. the colour is linked to problems .

WEIMED - do you have information / links on the health issues?  I am off searching Google now but if you can any information you can share that would be great.  Obviously, breeders I have spoken to Uk and abroad have not yet mentioned anything to me which gives me a whole set of different concerns. 

Tommet - yes it is indeed.  Which is a whole different kettle of fish as importing is very new to me. I have a few friends who have imported and contacts for this breeder who I have spoken with but I may not be brave enough.  I guess you have to feel confident and comfortable with everything otherwise just don't import. 

Sorry if I am ignorant - what is the issue with non standard colours (other than if the dogs have health issues as Weimed has highlighted which is an obvious issue)?  Like I say, I am new to this so you may have to be quite basic with me on this. I do want to gather information on this so I can understand it the challenges with it.

And just to confirm - we are very much in the information gathering mode regarding breeding.  I can get a lot of information from my pug breeder friends, vets and online before we decide whether it is something we will get into.  Please don't think I am going to ask a couple of questions then go rent a boyfriend for my girl and see what happens - it's a huge responsibility and we still have a lot of information to gather.

I would have thought if you were embarking upon breeding you would be researching the most health lines in this tricky breed...not the most fashionable/rarest  colours.
Airway and spinal problems will matter much more to the dogs and their owners .... than their colour.

Obviously... I am just asking a specific question about colours. 

Sorry if I am ignorant - what is the issue with non standard colours (other than if the dogs have health issues as Weimed has highlighted which is an obvious issue)?

You're doing absolutely nothing to improve a breed by introducing non recognised colours.  The type, colour, coat and temperament is what makes a breed a breed -and Pugs should no more be white than Rottweilers should be yellow or Westies grey or Papillons have no white markings or Dobermanns have a long coat etc etc.  Deliberately producing colours that are incorrect, and as such cannot be shown, is only ever done for one reason -to make money. I's puppy farming. Good breeders never EVER breed to make money. In fact good breeders lose lots of money by breeding as they do all the relevant health tests and long before breeding they prove their dogs are worthy of being bred from by showing them with success (travelling all over the country) -or in the case of breeds other than toy breeds, may work them instead to prove they have the right qualities for the breed, good enough for their genes to be passed on.

Then there is the big question of WHERE the white colour came from. It isn't something that will just suddenly occur in a litter of a breed that doesn't even have white markings. There is every chance that people at some point have used other breeds to outcross with to gain the colour, and then have forged the registrations. This is particularly common in some countries abroad, and you can often guess just by looking at the dogs that other breeds have indeed been added.

As an experienced toy breeder I would be asking you why your pug breeder friend has not advised you that this is one of the most difficult breeds to choose.  For a novice with no breeding knowledge (obvious from your post) I think you are in for a load of heartbreak (if you are a dog lover.)  Naturally if we are talking about puppy farming it won't count.  The bitches would just be allowed to whelp alone, and the dead bitches will just be collateral damage.

I am concerned that you haven't even mentioned that you realise what poor maternal instincts this breed has.  I would have expected your breeder friend to have pointed all the drawbacks out to you. 

FCI Standard for Pugs: Colour: "Silver, apricot, fawn or black.  Each clearly defined, to make contrast complete between colour, trace (black line extending from occiput to tail) and mask. Markings clearly defined.  Muzzle or mask, ears, moles on cheeks, thumb mark or diamond on forehead and trace as black as possible."

A paper re the issue of hearing defects in white dogs

http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/VetClinNA.htm

To be absolutely honest, from the information you've given, it seems to me you are being encouraged into breeding by entirely the wrong kind of breeder.     They haven't mentioned the problems in the breed, or problems which can occur from breeding such a difficult breed.     In addition, I have yet to meet a vet who has any idea of the health tests needed by each breed, or any idea of the standard of quality required before an owner even considers breeding.   Unless, of course, that vet is also in dog showing and breeding.    Their expertise doesn't generally lie in dog breeding, or in problems associated with whelping and rearing puppies.   They are most often GP vets, and as such, unaware of the major considerations which affect pedigree dog breeding.   

Perhaps a good way for you to begin is to go Championship and Breed Club shows, and start studying the breed you wish to be involved in, and get to know the breeders who will have both knowledge of the breed and health considerations, and the welfare of the breed as a whole, and of the individual dogs, at the heart of everything they do.

It is possible to breed and have no problems, but equally, it's possible to breed and end up being lucky to have either a live bitch at the end of it, or a live pup, and huge vets bills.    This can happen even in breeds known to be easy whelpers, and is a much higher risk in pugs :-(

Health, and Health testing information can be found on the various breed club websites, as can information on shows :-)    I'm very surprised that your breeder friends wouldn't have known to give you this information, no matter what breed they are in.   It's basic information that all responsible breeders would be able to give you ;-)

GOLDMALI Thanks for your post.  It is a really helpful and clear explanation of why there is controversey over non standard colours in any breed. 

JeanSW Yes as I said, I am looking at all of the aspects of breeding but this post is a specific question on non standard colours.  My pug breeding friends have most certainly not encouraging me to get involved or suggesting it is a walk in the park!  As I said previously, we are considering breeding, we are gathering information etc etc.  This is a specific question on non standard colours and what the controversey is - Goldmai's explanation of this is really helpful.

Harley and Admin thank you for link and KC breed standards re colours. 

Dill - I am not being encouraged to breed pugs by a breeder and they are certainly not encouraging me to breed a non standard colour.  She in does not think white pugs are pugs at all! 
As I keep saying - this is a question about colour and how it all works not a question on "should I breed my dog".  If we reach the decision to breed in the future (which, as I keep saying, we have not decided yet) we would only breed from our dog if she passed all KC/BVA screenings etc.

Regarding your specific Q on non-standard colours,   in addition to the excellent information already given,  there is also the consideration, that many people buying non-standard colours are encouraged to believe in their rarity value and higher price.    It's almost endemic nowadays, even where the breeder makes no claims about rarity value or additional price.    The question then, is whether you are willing to perpetuate that perception by deliberately breeding non-standard colours?

Lets face it.  In any other sphere, it would be considered disingenuous at best or at worst fraud!

Yes I see that some people do ask some rather high prices for "rare" coloured dogs.  To clarify, we have a black pug we are looking to breed and are considering getting a white (although looking into the health readings provided I am not encouraged by this). 
I guess if people are willing to pay more for a different colour that is their choice.  If they are being misled about the rarity of it then agree that is very unethical behaviour (although perhaps not fraud but I am an accountant so I am probably sensitive on terminology and am being pedantic!)

Ok - so let me summarise - non breed standard colours are pretty contentous because there is a big question about how they got there in the first place (suggests some kind of cross breed some where in the chain perhaps). Also, some of the colours have associated health problems.  Looking at KC website today further to this thread I saw they even outright ban some colours from being registered (I saw a merle bulldog colour cannot be registered) because the dogs have bad health problems.

So how can someone even register a white pug?  Are they fibbing on the KC reg (e.g. registering them as fawns or something) or are they registered as a potential owner you should be aware of the possible health problems of these dogs?

Merle is not a colour it is a coat pattern & breedng two merles together is what causes the health problems, the KC will not register Merles in breeds in which Merle does not naturally occur

The KC does not have any disqualifying faults so non standard colours are registered(such as white/blue etc GSDs)

Do you are you intending on showing before you decide to breed ?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Dill - I am not being encouraged to breed pugs by a breeder and they are certainly not encouraging me to breed a non standard colour.  She in does not think white pugs are pugs at all!  <br />As I keep saying - this is a question about colour and how it all works not a question on "should I breed my dog".  If we reach the decision to breed in the future (which, as I keep saying, we have not decided yet) we would only breed from our dog if she passed all KC/BVA screenings etc.

But in your original thread you said you were on the list for a white pug and then you go on to say "If it's the latter then I would work on the basis any babies from our white lady would be non KC reg as I would not want to decieve / fiddle with paper work." which would lead one to believe that you would consider breeding from a white pug even if you thought the resultant offspring could not be KC registered and that is why you are getting replies commenting on the ethics of breeding from a non-standard colour dog even though it's not that aspect that you wish to receive responses to.

You would also find that responsible, ethical, reputable breeders of fully health tested KC registered stud dogs would not let their stud dog be used on a dog that didn't conform to the breed standard and wasn't a good example of it's breed and if the bitch isn't KC registered itself and that there is also proof that any endorsements have been removed- in which case you would have to use a dog from a less reputable source and would not be producing a litter for what many would see as the right reasons.

Does your black bitch have breeding endorsements? If so, and as you have already said  the breeder of your black bitch is against the breeding of white pugs, buying a white pug would probably give the breeder great doubts as to whether or not yours would be a suitable case for using a bitch she had bred as it may call into question the integrity of the reasons behind your possible wish to breed.

aside from deafness which is associated commonly with white please also bear in mind skin cancers. white animals do need watching closer in sunny weather as many do burn badly.

So what has sparked your interest in breeding with a non-accepted white Pug rather than breed quality, healthy ones?

Thanks Harley - yes black girl has breeding endorsements and I'm not planning on showing her.  She has not had any ring training and is a family pet.

Yes, the breeder I know most has challenged me a lot on the potential "white pug" buy and that's one of the reasons I raised the question on this forum - what's the deal with these non standard colours?! But some of the posts on here have been really clear in helping me understand which is really my objective for coming on here to ask.  I personally like the appearance of white ones however the info I have received today in terms of health of white pugs really casts that into doubt.  They might look nice but the health problems sound quite sad.  Maybe I will get a platinum girl to keep my black girl company (I am not sure I could cope with the hair of the fawns).

When I started this thread I also asked if a non standard colour (white in this case) can even be registered as KC or whether people were abusing the registration system.    I guess as I was considering getting a non standard colour I wanted to know if the dog I was considering buying had dodgy paperwork. 

Weimed - thank for this - now have lots of info on the white dog.  I was aware of the potential issue with sunlight and protection she would need but some of the other health issues seem more pronouced in white dogs also.

Westcoast - I am looking at breeding my black girl and her future companion which, at the start of today, was looking like a white pug from europe (who hasn't been born yet). I personally like the look of the white ones very much, also I think the platinum ones are attractive too.  So it is personal taste really mostly governed by looks but I did not have an awareness of the health issues with the whites.  I will need to look into Platinums now to see if I can find out more about those and whether they have any health issues.  I do not like brindles, fawns or apricots personally.  As the second dog does not exist, I cannot say I would definately breed her as I do not know what her personality, health tests or temprament is like so everything is quite theoretical at this stage.  If we got a second dog, decided to breed her, it would be 2 years + from now if she has not been born yet.

So can we ask why you are breeding if she is just a pet if you are not showing ?

I guess if people are willing to pay more for a different colour that is their choice.  If they are being misled about the rarity of it then agree that is very unethical behaviour (although perhaps not fraud but I am an accountant so I am probably sensitive on terminology and am being pedantic!)

The big problem here is that owing to the large number of people making such claims about rarity, (which are quite true - white Pugs for example are rare, but the reason for the rarity is not disclosed - that white Pugs are rare because they are an undesirable colour which carries health risks) it is now generally perceived amongst the largely ignorant dog buying public that these dogs are more 'desirable'

As regards my stating that in any other sphere it would be considered fraud, I am using the following definition of the word.

Fraud by false representation  - the dogs are falsly represented as desirable because they are rare
Fraud by failing to disclose information - the breeder does not disclose that the dogs are rare because they are an undesirable colour and also carry greater health risks
Fraud by abuse of position - the Breeder is in a position to know the reasons for the rarity of the dog, and the health problems, but chooses not to disclose, the attitude usually being " if people are willing to pay more for a different colour that is their choice"   which is basically the reasoning of the puppy farmer :-(

I have taken my use of the word Fraud from The Fraud Act 2006 (c 35)  which I would expect any accountant to be familiar with.

> The Fraud Act 2006 (c 35) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It affects England and Wales and Northern Ireland. It was given Royal >Assent on 8 November 2006, and came into effect on 15 January 2007.[1]

>The Act gives a statutory definition of the criminal offence of fraud, defining it in three classes - fraud by false representation, fraud by failing to >disclose information, and fraud by abuse of position. It provides that a person found guilty of fraud was liable to a fine or imprisonment for up to >twelve months on summary conviction (six months in Northern Ireland), or a fine or imprisonment for up to ten years on conviction on indictment. >This Act largely replaces the laws relating to obtaining property by deception, obtaining a pecuniary advantage and other offences that were created >under the Theft Act 1978.

I appreciate I have posted a question in a forum primarily made up of "dog professionals" who may show and breed but I understand most litters of dogs are not born by show breeders but it is a mixture.  We do not show our dogs and have never done so - we did not work in the "dog industry" so dogs for us have always been family pets.  Now I have the time available which means we could have a litter of pups so are considering doing so.

you can't register pups from endorsed dogs, breeders will only lift endorsements when the criteria is met ie all health tests completed with good results, dog has been shown and been deemed a good example of the breed and the stud is the same.

I can never understand why folk opt to breed for the first time a breed that is known to have problems or one that is filling the rescues with unwanted dogs.

You have bought your present pug as a pet and therefore are unlikely to have been sold a pup which is show/breed potential.

when searching for a new bitch I made it very clear from the off that I wished to show/breed but the dog would live in my home as a pet.

Have you thought about risks to the health of your pet and the possibility of things going wrong as the breed is not an easy breed for a novice to deal with during the birth and a high risk for mother and pups dying during and after the birth  because of a higher than a average number needing a Caesarian section . A larger % of deaths occur in the breed compared to other breeds.. 

If you are doing it for a hobby there are far more thing as you can do with dogs that won't require putting your loved pet at risk.it is something I think should be at the upmost in your decision making .

I get the impression I have offended a couple of you by my question and appreciate that those breeding "champ dogs" would not endorse a non standard colour.  In my head I though you would be a great pool of people to ask some advice from on this matter as some experts.

Thank you to those of you who have provided genuine, helpful advice particularly on the health issues associated with the dog I was looking at as that advice has changed my mind on the dog I was looking at.

I also get the impression that some people are mildly horrified at the prospect of a "hobby breeder" or non professional breeder.  So I will continue with that contemplation outside this spehere

Far from it most people are not at all offending we just want you to be aware about the things you need to consider outside of the colour question.

Hi LJS - just saw your post after I posted mine - yes I agree with your comments.  Our girl is like my child!  We are at early stages of contemplation but I appreciate your genuine advice.  I was about to close down this window as I did not think I was going to get any more helpful comments but appreciate your genuine concern and summary.

You are completely mistaken about what a "hobby" breeder is. Most, if not all of the people here are hobby breeders, not professional breeders. Our dogs are show dogs, breeding dogs, and loved pets, all at the same time. Breeding is a hobby, not a profession. The goal is to maintain and improve the breed, not make money and pay the bills. But there is a goal, and we are involved with our breeds in a lot of levels. We are not producing puppies just for the sake of it.

Thanks LJS

Some other people have been quite aggressive in their posts and I feel quite attacked by some.

I have come here for advice so thank you to those helping me on my journey.

I would like to think these forums are for what you describe LJS, people making others aware of all of the considerations to make before taking a decision. 

Aggressive, unhelpful posts simply put people like me off asking for that advice. I did explain I was a novice and that I needed advice and guidance hence I asked quesitons. 

I will not be coming ot ChampDogs again to ask for any further advice. 

I hope other novices who come to you experienced, knowledgeable people are not frightened off as I have been. 

I appreciate I have posted a question in a forum primarily made up of "dog professionals" who may show and breed but I understand most litters of dogs are not born by show breeders but it is a mixture.  We do not show our dogs and have never done so - we did not work in the "dog industry" so dogs for us have always been family pets.

The thing is, the great majority of pups born to people not IN dogs (showing or working) are badly bred. Sometimes because the breeders don't know any better, sometimes because they don't care. Those are the ones you see at the vets with health problems, the ones that do not look or act like their breed -yet the media would have it that it is the show breeders that have sickly dogs. That isn't the case. We are (overall, of course there are good and bad in all walks of life) the ones that take all the greatest care when breeding, do it for all the right reasons, spend all the money etc -and our dogs are STILL first and foremost family PETS. That is and always will be their number one function. Right now, with the rain pouring down outside, I am surrounded by sleeping dogs. My son is on his laptop on one couch, next to him he has 3 current showdogs and also 2 neutered dogs that were not good enough to breed from -they are still here for life as pets. On the other couch is my current top showdog next to an 8 year old sickly dog (neutered) bred by somebody who just wanted to have a litter for fun -no interest in showing or real knowledge of the breed. He's the dog out of all mine that has seen the vet the most. By my feet is my 13 year old Champion who now is retired and loved just as much as always, and a 7 year old spayed bitch who only managed to have one live puppy out of two litters -she sleeps in our bed at night. Pets, all of them. :)

Professional means to make a living I think?  Nobody on here makes a living from their dogs and so consider themselves hobby breeders and consider their dogs as pets as you do. 

What they are is knowledgable breeders who have spent time, money and effort to learn about their chosen breeds, the health issues, the breed standards etc. rather than Backyard Breeders, breeding from pet quality dogs just because they can.

You may find this of interest - it explains the differences better than I can in a few words. :)
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

Sorry I came to this thread so late.  I know the OP has stated they are not returning to the site so hope my reply may be of help to others considering this issue.

We currently have an increasing problem with non standard colours in pugs - it started off with whites, chocolates, platinums  and this year has increased to blues, black & tan, choc and tan and even merle.  There is only 1 reason for breeding these colours - CASH £££££!.  There are 2 issues at work, first the simple casese of "Faulty colours" being given desirable sounding names to sell them for prices above those of standard colours, rather than at reduced prices as faults.  The usual casue is repeated breeding of fawns and black together in a pedigree, resulting in "rusty" black (described wrongly as Chocolate) and  "Smutty" fawn (wrongly labelled Platinum).  So, these are pug pups, not rare, not desriable, but registered wrongly as non standard as the breeder has picked a silly name for the colour.

Next we have the more serious problem,  the whites, blues, & Tans - and any other colour the breeders (mostly in Eastern Europe) can churn out pups who look vaguely like a pug.  There is a group of breeders in Latvia, Romania etc. who are breeding Pugs, Frenchis &  Bulldogs, it seems to be they simply pick which pup looks like which breed in the litter and call it that breed.  There is obvious crossing between these 3 breeds and also Pekes, Chis and Griffons.  If you start with the obvious - there is no such thing as a white pug, then it follow that the white "pugalike" for sale has anything up to 50% not pug in it's genetic makeup, the same is true of the other  "rare" colours.

The whole thing is further obscured by breeders selling various pugs as "White gene carriers".  This can mean 1 of 2 things - the pup is the produce of a crossbred mating as described above, or the pup is actually a pug but comes from a parent who has undesirable white marking (Socks/chest) as it is the result of a fawn/black mating.  So 2 very different types of "White gene".  The majority of the fad colour fans come up with all sorts of non scientific calculations for the colours, or hide behind the "it's a secret we don't share" when questioned about the colour genetics.

hi newbee, if your little lady is like a child to you then please please just consider everything that can go wrong in breeding, I'm not preaching to you telling you that you shouldn't breed as everyone has to start somewhere and you have done the right thing by putting a post on here. please go under the breeding questions and click on the heading IS SHE OR iSNT SHE question and just take a look at my horrific recent experience, I have been lightly showing and breeding for a lot of years and I learn something new everyday about breeding. I don't think people are attacking you I just think you need to understand that some people have worked for years trying to improve on there breeds and feel very passionate about them and then in there eyes somone comes along bringing in a colour that shouldn't really exist. my recent experience with my bitch who is a show dog but also a much loved pet has broken my heart and left me with a very poorly bitch so if your little lady is like your child then just be carful there are so many problems breeding pugs, but like I say you have done the right thing posting on here at the end of the day you will make up your own mind but just do your research first

As long as the parents are registered then the puppies can be as long as there are no endorsements.
However the only reason people are breeding these white pugs is money as I have seen them selling for as much as £4300! and as far as I know they have all come from a single stud imported from Germany by a breeder in Essex that has no shame in advertising they are breeding designer breeds and seems to breed mostly non recognised colours of several breeds.
Out of curiosity I phoned the breeder when they first started advertising their stud which was 2-3 the price of a normal pug stud, I was surprised that not ony did they not have any paperwork for the dog before they put him up for stud but when I questioned them about health tests they replied his heart was good and the vet said his spine felt fine, what a talented vet that does not need to x-ray to check the spine for HV problems.
My advise would be to start with good stock from a reputable breeder and keep to the recognised colours, but please do think long and hard as pug are not the easiest breed especially not to start with as they are notoriously bad mothers and can have very difficult labours.

Please don't be put off by what you think is aggressive .

This is not a pink fluffy forum. You need to realise we all say it as is is rather than be polite as I may come over. I have been accused of being judgemental and aggressive before which it is all about you either want to listen and if you don't have  you are wrong .

You have come to the best place that will give you the facts rather than appease you and give you the answers you want to hear.

> You need to realise we all say it as is is rather than be polite as I may come over.

It is perfectly possible to "say it as it is" and be polite at the same time - newcomers are more likely to listen to honest advice if it is given in a friendly, polite way (the old saying you catch more flies with honey than vinegar is ever apt on forums whether fluffy or not)

As a new comer to this forum I posted a question that sparked an argument as well, but I do think you need to have thick skin and take on the negative  answers and the positives, I gained a lot if info from ALL the answers even if I didn't like them. I know the majority of people on here  are just looking out for what is the best for their breeds. Surely this is the right way to be? An any advice given from people who have been there should be taken on board to help you make the right choice?