A friend has a litter healthy mum healthy pups and they are 2 weeks 3 days. He has started weaning onto ready brek ans whelpi already and dispite my best efforts refuses to listen when I say its too early and wants mum to not be feeding them much after 3 weeks. Baring in mind I delivered this litter and you would have thought it was my bitch living elsewhere how much ive been involved. Everything I say he seems to know better even though has nevee had a litter. Needless to say my good will has been used up... I even built whelping box and took bitch to stud.

Are there any cons to weaning a litter too early?

Why is he using ready brek? There are far better things to feed them. Dogs can't digest ready brek all that well. He would be better using a proper puppy food. As to weaning, it is a bit early in my opinion, but if they are ready for it then it shouldn't do much harm, if it is good food, not ready break or weetabix, or anything like that. As to mum not feeding pups much after 3 weeks. OMG what planet is he on? The pups need mums milk until 5/6 weeks old. Not to mention the interaction needed. Can only hope you talk some sense into him. :-(

I know what nutrients are in ready brek? Hes too busy listening to his old time breeder friends who still think bitches can concieve twice having older and younger pups and what made me laugh is that these friends palpated 6 pups at 2 weeks into whelp. I really lol when I heard that I said eggs wont have even implanted. But im 25 and read not bred (had a handful of litters) so what do I know? Ive tried to say its too early but anything I say just gets shrugged off. Mums really lost weight too as shes not being fed what she should only eating what she wants and this was rice pudding and custard last I heard.

I start offering all mine their first tastes of sloppy solids from 18 days, but have started as soon as eyes open if weight gain was levelling of.

Of course I have never restricted a Mum's access to her pups, simply increase the amount I feed them to appetite and let Mum do what she thinks best as regards how often she feeds.

My current litter were lovely chubbies, but were more than happy to start to eat at 18 days, and since Thursday at 21 days have been on four meals a day.

With the amount of times I see Mum feeding there is no decrease in frequency.  bitch is in god condition, and in a week I may reduce her rations slightly, as she ahs been on four times her normal rations since pups were born, and it isn't a huge litter (6).

Ready brek is purely cereal, so would not feed it myself, I soak puppy food and add a bitch milk replacer made from Goats milk.

Sorry to be so blunt but the man is an idiot. Mum should be on high protein food and still feeding the pups. I also soak good quality puppy food and usually start at 3-4 weeks, depending on the litter.

What a cheek the man has to take all of your good deeds and help, but at a crucial time refuse to listen.

Sometimes we have to wean early at this age if there is a problem, when a breeder needs to hand rear being able to offer a little weaning food along with the bottle feeds means the breeder can get some sleep at last, it should only be done as a necessity and never with ready brek, sheesh!

Milk is designed to give everything a pup needs to help grow from its brain development to it's limbs and organs it is the best thing a pup can have (unless the dam is poorly fed or ill) if this 'breeder' wishes to take that away and part substitute it with a human cereal, also taking away the dam who will care and teach them... then more fool him and 'idiot' is the right word. I feel sorry for the pups and the dam who probably wishes to be with her pups, mine still feeds until they leave on and off.

Why would anyone wish to have to make up food substitutes when the dam gives it all for free and with the right balance of vitamins, proteins and minerals - makes no sense does it? I guess we should be thankful that at least he is mixing it with whelpi.

Does he think he can get them sent on their way quicker if they are weaned earlier? Doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

I don't understand why he has wanted all your help thus far and now he chooses to ignore you, just typical and no wonder you are upset. :-(

Im not sure whether under the illusion that with these actions maybe he thinks he knows more than he actually does but it just infuriates me. Misguided by other people I think who he sees as knowledgeable. Yet I delivered the litter. !! And get this watched the pups whilst they took a break and got a change of scenery for an evening. Jaw was on the floor but I didnt say anything, expectations to have a shower at 10 days old are high for me. Not getting out and away from them. Ive driven a good distance today to a hear testing event with my girls and was driving for almost 5 hours. I get in the door and im called upon to come and take pictures of them with my decent camera. Individual shots to show off on fb and send to interested parties. I drew the line at worming them but trimmed nails. Several other favours and wheloing equipment loaned also and my botb leant out and then given to a friend when she was due?? I mean who borrows things from someone and then lends them to supposedly knowledgeable  friends I dont even knoe and didnt even know about grrr. Rant over sorry folks

It sounds like you need to a) get your stuff back as soon as it's finished with (before he loans it to others) and b) learn the word no.....
even though it is hard when you don't want the bitch or pups to suffer. You should not be at this persons beck and call as you
also have a life and dogs that need you. They are seriously taking advantage of your good nature and you are letting them do so.
Have you got the book back?

All I can say is poor bitch and poor pups...to be forced to wean early before they are ready and before mum wants
to stop.

1) Risk of mastitis to mum is higher
2) Are the puppies digestive systems developed enough to digest the food (ok he may come back with the but
when they've lost the mum they have to sometimes early - but even a person with little common sense should
realise mothers milk is best for as long as possible when rearing pups, especially when there is nothing wrong with mum or her milk)
Puppy porridge - my version is a mashed down good quality grain free complete with goats milk that is the consistency of porridge but it's not porridge oats or any other porridge type breakfast cereal.
3) The interaction that mother and all pups have when the pups are suckling

What happens when things do start to go wrong whose fault is it going to be......

Honestly they are going to have you run ragged by the time the pups are 8 weeks old.

No the books still at the friends. He saw it on my kitchen sideboard as id been looking at aided deliveries in run up to her dd and he just said ooh ill borrow this and I didnt find it had been loaned until the bitch was in labour! Not to mention we had fleas for the first time in years so I spent quite abit of money stocking up on flea stuff for the year.  Only to find the fleas had come from them as the rented house they own that they were working on was infested and they asks if I have some spare to treat his 3. Aling with vrt biught ear cleaner my pedigree software and dog world annual I bought.  Im not a confrontational type at all but I know im being taken advantage of. Im just out food shopping and got a txt if I can come round and trim the puppies nails again and one of the adults.  He knows I charge for this service to my customers but doesnt offer me anything. Not looking forward to them tagging along with the new pups to my ringcraft. Glad im toy on different days for champ shows. If I was being paid for my efforts I wouldn't mind so much. At the whelp they said they would give me something when the pups are sold but I think this is an empty gesture or ill get a shiny 50p

Think this is a similar situation to the one Admin recently posted about would you help homing a litter if parents weren't health tested. It may be the best bred litter in the world, but you have done everything by the sound of it and you need to stop, otherwise they will have had such an easy time they will keep breeding when clearly they are not right for it at all.

As Goldmali has said, stop giving your services for free. You are seriously being taken advantage of and it will continue as long as you allow it to happen. When he asks you to trim the dogs nails, tell him what your charges are and make sure you get it up front. I think the time has come to distance yourself. Get all your loaned stuff back and don't answer the phone, let the calls go to voice mail and check who has phoned you first. Be out a lot if you spot him coming to the door. Or just say it is not convenient at the moment. You are going to find yourself with no money and none of your belongings before much longer.

People like this make me so mad :(

Surely you have A. N. Other friend ;)  who needs the whelping equipment now?   and TBOB?

Sounds to me like these people will just keep taking advantage if you let them.   Time to start getting your stuff back and then start charging them for your services.

You can be sure that if anything goes wrong, they will blame you fot it, and possibly very loudly too :(

Have met just such a person myself, only wants to be friends with people they can take advantage of and manipulate - and they are very skilled at it too!  

Your best plan is to retrieve your belongings, then create distance.  Do it the other way and you'll likely lose your belongings ;)

Good luck with this, you don't derserve this treatment after giving so much help.

I would also tell him that you won't be able to come round as often as you have paying clients who you need to accomodate in order to earn your living - you can say it in a nice way " Really sorry but can't trim the pups' nails as I am really busy with my customers and I need to earn my living - maybe if you want to book an appointment I could see if I can fit you in and will give you a discount  on my normal price".  You don't have to give him the discount - he probably has no idea what you charge anyway - but hopefully he will get the message that your services can't be for free as we all have a living to earn.

Took the litter to a vets in the next county 50 mins away as they had an offer on vaccines to save breeder £15 for each pup. instead of using village vets 2 mins up the road. Got to the vets and the pups have fleas, i knew they have had flea problems for a while as they keeping bringing them round to me and i have to spend a fortune treating my lot. When since these recent incidents weve not had fleas for 3 years. pups are treated there and then but they wont treat the house and other dogs. Came out with something along the lines of i knew it would be that pup that had fleas. (asif its a trouble maker) Anyway since my last rant i was asked to hand write out 4 5 generation pedigree certificates to which i said my writing isnt very good. so after me not making her pedigrees on my software or writing them out, finally bought some. 2 of the pups have left for there new homes and 1 is staying other one leaving next week. They are getting a lift with me to the next local open and im taking the two fleabags in the car with me, goodness know why they are entered as the dam still has boobs (pups are 9 weeks) tried everything to get her off pups early so her ''milk would dry up'' and with having fleas her coat is very patchy. Came round the other day and gave me £40 for my help in making whelping box, loaning whelping equipment, whelping the litter, puppy sitting, at least 5 sessions with my camera, nail trimming every week, helping worm them, taking bitch to stud...... and i wasnt given any petrol money for my trip to the vets. So for all my work ive been given £25?????!!!!!!! am i being greedy of selfish or am i right to be completely insulted. Also im being required to take the one puppy back for 2nd vaccs to the same vets 50 mins away. why oh why cant i say no? or enough is enough. I am on antibiotics as ive been ill this weekend. but after OH saying im not too good, they come round to see how bad i am and still ask me to come and trim everyones nails as they need feet ready for show nxt weekend and pups nails getting long. They have nail clippers why cant they do it!!!! aARGH

Louise, there is nothing wrong in being kind and helpful, many of us do these things and more for our friends and others in our breed. The difference here is you are not enjoying helping them out and you are feeling put upon, which obviously means you are, some people take, take, take, and they would never, ever do the same thing for you.

As I've got older I've got harder, the takers can take off now and find another mug, my real friends and others in my breed who I know would help me as much as I would help them........ I'll bend over backwards to help out.

You need to say No! hun......... you need to look out for yourself and only be kind to those who appreciate it and respect you for it, or you may aswell print the word mug on your forehead.

Tell them you are not feeling well and have too much on yourself now, and they will need to find someone else to do the vet run and the nail clippings, and stop offering to help........ unless you are happy to do so.

I offered to help with the birth as its something i think im good at and the preservation of life and all. But after that it has now become not ''oh would you please mind'' but a ''you need to come round and do pups nails'' or ''i need you to come round and take pics of pups''  (so i can show them off to such and such on facebook). Previous to this any advice and still alot of my advice is dumped. for example getting an affix - no i dont need to bother with that. but as soon as one someone else mentions it. Yep im getting an affix, and its almost a double take??? Its just purposefully inconveniencing me for things when im busy or trying to have some down time at home. Its not just dog stuff now even though thats the majority. The partner has nothing to do with the dogs really just walks them ocassionally and has stopped at there other house that they usually rent out whilst pups were on the ground. So will only enter dog shows if im going for a lift, which means mike cant come with they boys as there is no room. Calls it 'teaming up' but as the partner wont take them to shows it more i have no other way so ill come with you. Even had to lie about a show and say im not going and quickly get off in the morning before seeing us leave! I dont know how we manage it were a young family who like to keep ourselves to ourselves but managed to have the gossip of the village pop round EVERY day. Nothing left of the favour card now its been used so much. Looking online for learn to say no advice

I agree with Carrington.

Perhaps you need to ask yourself WHY you can't say no?     What are you hoping for?

There comes a point where helping someone actually hinders them and fosters dependence.   They stop being able to do things themselves because someone else will step in.   

Remember, by being so available,  you are preventing them from being independent and gaining confidence in their own ability to live their lives ;-)  (regarding caring for, and showing their dogs)

You are also ensuring that they will need you.   

If you're happy with that, then by all means carry on.   If it isn't, then you need to do something about it ;-)

This isn't meant as a criticism,  there's nothing wrong with helping people, it's a lovely thing to do.    But when it gets to the point of interfering in your life, and the people being helped become unable or unwilling, to do things for themselves, then it becomes something else.

Sometimes it's easier to see from the 'outside'  :-)

>Looking online for learn to say no advice

Perhaps, you may find it easier to not say no immediately.    A good way is to delay.

They want you to come round immediately?   Say you can't for a couple of days/a week and take it from there ;-)     Just don't be so easily available perhaps.

They want to come to a dog show?    Sorry, the hubby and kids really want to go to this one, and you've arrainged to visit relatives on the way back - and then do it ;-)

Lies may catch you out ;-)

Or you could just go cold turkey and start saying no.    Start with whatever you really don't want to do and go from there :-)

They can do these things themselves (whelping not so sure) partner doesnt care, but wouldnt have had a litter if it wasnt for me and my car. I just think they think, oh fantastic someone with a car who can take me to shows and know abit about dogs and i can borrow (and not return a lot of things) I dont present being available. They know ive had one day off, and insist on seeing what im doing and knowing every detail of my life. But what do you do when your asked? i think im just trying to save face, when mikes home he just goes into another room when they come round. If we dont answer the door, when were rarely not in the kitchen heart of the home, preparing meals or just sat in there, its then acceptable to open the gate and (leave it open so when i let the dogs out later i havent realised and there on the drive or down the street) and bang on the window of another room. And even when were not in does the same and then says they dogs went mental at me. No wonder as you were peering through the window! Im not hoping for anything, i dont take favours from others, self reliant and learnt not to rely much on others. Id never just ask for flea,worm,ear treatment and not offer. but they are coming up to retirement years and do i see it as respecting my elders? They sat the kids once whilst i picked mike up from scouts one evening and then offered to do it again but didnt answer the phone so i had to drag the boys out of bed. Also not having kids of there own i was worried leaving them with them even for a short amount of time for fear of if something happens, boys choking or dropped the baby. So never again, also was promised chicken carcass from a guy they knew for the pooches, handed my money over and to this day still nothing....

Louise, you sound like a younger version of me......... poor thing. :-D

You know people who 'use' and 'take' soon cotton on to those people who think they need to be 'nice' all the time, I was brought up to always be polite and never say what I really thought, it's a hard trait to break, the 'takers' know these types of people find it hard to say no.

You're probably more likely to move when it gets too much rather than actually stand at your front door and ask for your privacy and to be left alone from this woman.

The best advice I can give you is you don't need to be liked by everyone, you should not worry about this person liking you, you need to shake that off, it is far better to be respected, unfortunately people like this woman do not respect 'nice' people, you can be polite and decline if the person takes offense better to be without them in your life than be on a chain yourself to this person and others like them.

You'll be surprised once you get out of the habit, (as it is a habit of not wishing to say no) it feels great! It will liberate you and believe me that person will give you much more respect and you'll sleep a whole lot better, instead of worrying about how to get out of things and feeling unhappy at being used. I can say no very easily now and with a smile, not worrying about what that person thinks, these people never think of you or your feelings and you need to shrug off that part of you that does that too with these types. :-)

Throw your hands up in the air and say to yourself, you don't care if she likes you if you don't wish to do something she has asked. :-)

I feel for you, I really do.    I have known people like this,  experienced the way they suck you dry.   

It sounds like these people have no manners and no boundaries.    

How do the other neighbours deal with them?    Have they worn other neighbours out?    I wouldn't be surprised if they have  ;-)

>They know ive had one day off, and insist on seeing what im doing and knowing every detail of my life. But what do you do when! >your asked?

You change the subject, or reflect the questions to them -  ask them the same question without answering.    (Think of them as TROLLS and don't feed them ;-) )

When they ask you for worming tabs, flea, ear stuff etc.    Just say you're glad they asked, you know where they can get a really good deal (sidestepping the have you got )

Make a list if all the things they've 'borrowed' and not given back, only you will know if it's worth asking for any of them.    Then ask yourself if they really deserve your respect.   Elders or not, it works both ways really.

Also, you might consider putting a chain on the gate, or a lock.    Anything to make it fiddly or difficult to open.   Might make them less inclined to pop over.    Or if this doesn't work, a lock and a post box.

If they complain, you can point out that someone keeps leaving the gate open and  the dogs are getting out, which is dangerous  :-D

I hope you manage to sort this, it sounds as if you're feeling stressed by it all.

ETA - Carrington puts it so much better than I can :-)

> They can do these things themselves (whelping not so sure) partner doesnt care, but wouldnt have had a litter if it wasnt for me and my car.

I think that sums it all up - they are leaning heavily on you. You've "mentored" them through starting showing and having a litter, there can't be much else they'd need experience of, so it's time to let them stand on their own feet.

Thought of something & had a giggle to myself  - but you could casually ask that, as you have done so much for them and given them help, would they consider putting one of their dogs in joint name with you as a thank-you? It's not something I'd have the nerve to do, don't know about you, but it might make them think! (You could even spread the truth a bit and claim it's what other people do!).

They're completely taking advantage of your good nature, you need to get your stuff back and stop knuckling under to them. I know it's hard to say no, I always like to help people out, but when it's affecting your own dogs with getting fleas all the time and costing you loads of money in driving them around you really need to harden your heart. :-)

> when it's affecting your own dogs with getting fleas all the time

Forgot about that bit. If they aren't responsible enough to properly deal with parasites on(or even in) their dogs, then you really can't afford to associate with them. There's no excuse in this day & age. Would be the deal breaker for me, regardless of the other stuff!

I know its about £50 a time to treat everyone. With 3 big uns I the house. Ive only found one or two. They like my frenchie? Also dont want my family to come round and get bitten by them (the non dog loving side) luckily only one set of the parents but the set that see the kids most. Will have to get ruthless and get some blinds for the kitchen. Known to all the village they are but dont call upon anyone as much as me. Want to start my own business next year grooming (a subject she is also an expert on and constantly puts me down and undermines my knowledge) and have a litter and she wont be allowed anywhere near. They had visitors from day 1 but I would never put my pups at risk like that. While were at a show at the weekend my other half "can come round and check on the pups" with my 2 boys who are at the moment quite poorly.  Ill be inspecting for fleas before they get in the car. Koko will be crated in the boot and shes just been treated to in expectation of her coming into contact with fleas. She will also jibber jabber to her mates and keep me waiting even though im first in the ring so wilk be there early. But im not avin it. Leave her there and anotherone of her idiot mates can run her back.

> Ill be inspecting for fleas before they get in the car. Koko will be crated in the boot and shes just been treated to in expectation of her coming into contact with fleas

Just in case it's something you haven't thought of (many people don't!) - treat the car for fleas as well with something like Acclaim or Indorex :)
Tell her she can keep her fleas, and start a circus ;)

Of course there are (cons)!   For starters the immature digestive system of a puppy that young.   Plus what this might do to mum who will be lactating for far longer than this!!  (Mastitis).  It is possible to have to supplement a big litter, using bitch replacement milk, but that's a completely other thing than using Ready Brek, never mind Whelpi.    Why would he start this, and risk the lives of this so-far health litter?

Weaning normally begins at around the end of week 3, going into week 4, depending on how the litter and mum are doing, but at that early stage, most of their nourishment should still come from mum.    I started by using warmed goats milk and taking each puppy on my knee to teach them to lap.   I'd also give just a tiny amount of raw lean mince (hamburger) once a day - any more and there's be trouble, even if they loved it!!    Once lapping and into week 4, I'd introduce a good quality puppy food, mixing with either warmed goats milk or water into a porridge, dropping the amount of moisture as they grew and could manage it drier.

Cons - he could really mess with their digestive systems.   Pros - at this young age, there are NONE.   Unless he wants to run into big vet bills.

ps   I've not read all of this thread!!

I tend to fee Mum in the whelping box, and find my pups will be ready to taste weaning food when they start trying to eat Mums. 

This is usually about 2 1/2 weeks. 

So I generally start offering them food from 18 days so by 21 days they are having a small amount 4 times a day. 

I feel better about worming them then on a full stomach.

As you say from 4 weeks they are really eating increasingly large amounts, but my girls continue to feed their pups until they leave home.

This means apart from looking awful due to loosing their coats they keep in good body condition and don't get saggy undercarriages either.

Karma swift and just........After another favour. Her taking the mick and not bringing any money for petrol and us barely making it home 50mile trip 3hours of my time. If the car had have run out we'd been stuck in the middle of nowhere no lights no pavements nothing. So I wasn't happy didnt even come round and give me some money for fuel and she knows our situation!!! But she was telling me about her pup jumping on and off of the sofa, I just groaned but she thought it was a funny trick. The though of a frenchie or a pug pup jumping of the settee at 10 weeks is a disaster.  One that if you were to witness would be a slow mo moment trying to catch them. Doesnt bare thinking about. But it made her giggle and was amusing even vets receptionist said it much be such a long way for a small pup. Her other dogs climb on the back of the armchair feet on wwindowsill and bark at things in the window. She must have been letting pup do this too. No qualms about it at all???? Pup falls and breaks her rear leg, so badly paw facing wrong direction and they queried pinning!!!! Awful thing for poor pup and she gets the wrath of her ignorance and stupidity. Pup now In full leg cast and changing it every 2 weeks then see how progress goes. Told you so moment or what? All her profit from the litter gone on sorting pup out. Do you think early weaning and poor diet attributed to the break????

Ouch poor puppy hope it makes a full recovery but yes serves her right to lose all her profit on vet's bills!

>I tend to fee Mum in the whelping box, and find my pups will be ready to taste weaning food when they start trying to eat Mums.

Big difference in the size of my pups compared to Elkies.  Yet I do exactly the same.  It means that I let them dictate when they are ready to move on.  My breed are not standing as early as yours Barbara, but will still crawl to mums dish and start licking. 

> Ouch poor puppy hope it makes a full recovery but yes serves her right to lose all her profit on vet's bills!

Can only agree, but if she is as dense as it seems, she will put it down to "one of those things" and carry on. I hope not!