Hi, I would love everyone's opinions on this. I have a tiny toy breed, and my original mentor was always an advocate of mating on the second season. I have a very nicely bred bitch who I bought at 18 months, just after her second season. We tried to get her in pup on her third season (her first one with me) but she wouldn't allow the dog to mate her, and had a very short season. So her fourth season is due soon, is it too late to try for a litter? I have had a lot of conflicting advice on this issue.

I have the same breed as you, and I'm very experienced in all aspects of mating and breeding, and whelping bitches.

I like my girls to be mated on their second season.  Totally different ball game to breeding larger breeds.  Bear in mind that my bitches are normally spayed at 4 years of age.  I don't like mating on the 3rd season, as the bitches tend to have more delivery problems.  We are talking about a breed that is sexually mature by 6 months of age.  It isn't like a Lab that is only a pup at that age.

The only people I know who have been daft enough to mate a Chi bitch at 3 years of age for the first time, have had emergency C-sections. I do stress for the first time.

So would you say that she has definitely missed the boat as a breeding bitch? She is 26 months old now, next season should be this month.

>I have a very nicely bred bitch who I bought at 18 months, just after her second season.

I wonder if her previous owner had already had one failed mating (on her 2nd season) and this is why she was sold on...

From everything JeanSW has said, and I know she is very experienced in this breed, I wouldn't risk trying again.

That is exactly what I thought too. Her season with me was an odd one, she never showed any interest in a dog (mine or the stud dog) but would flag to other bitches. It will be interesting to see if this coming season is the same.
I have had several people say she will be fine if mated now (good sized bitch, fit, from self-whelped litter) but my gut says it is too late.

> but would flag to other bitches.

Please don't take it as any indication at all.  I have a bitch who is a trollop and would flag for a camel, it means they're hussies, no more.

The several people who have told you she will be fine.  Have they checked her pelvis for you?

I don't mean how wide she is on the outside either.  I've seen a 9lbs Chi bitch who needed an emergency section because her vaginal canal was too narrow.

I am not discrediting any of your mentors.  Just pointing out my experience, and what I would want answered before making such an important decision.  Even with my experience I still get my own vet to check pelvic width before ever I decide that a bitch will be mated.  (Naturally after deciding if she has anything to offer my line.)

I do think her previous owner may have tried and failed to get her in pup. I didn't like her attitude and she wasn't entirely honest about a few other things, (behaviour issues) so it wouldn't surprise me if she had lied about her never attempting to get her mated. She didn't breed this bitch though, she got her from a reputable breeder with great lines.
If I don't breed from her I will just enjoy her as a beautiful pet. Having just had  my first C section litter, I really would rather avoid a repeat one, the stress nearly killed me lol.
Thinking of the future though, I won't breed from that bitch again, but do you think it would be a good or bad idea to breed from her daughter? Mum self-whelped her first litter, section for the second due to a huge breech puppy getting stuck. (Pups in second litter were much bigger than her first litter pups.) Obviously the girl puppy is still only a baby, so lots of time for things to change, but she is looking nice so far. The only thing putting me off keeping her is that she was born by Cesarian.

I have to be honest.  I have spent years and years working on a self whelping line for Chihuahuas.  I am amazed how so many people think it's normal for the breed to have a section.  I feel that whatever the breed it should self whelp.

In the wild, any animal not whelping naturally just doesn't survive.  I won't keep a bitch out of a bitch that didn't self whelp, also with bitches that have inertia.  All bitches out of these bitches go to pet homes on the understanding that they are neutered.  I don't even keep a male pup unless mum has self whelped.

It isn't up to me if you use your youngest bitch for breeding.  That is your choice, I'm not dictating to you, just giving you my own experience with this difficult breed.  You have chosen one of the most difficult breeds!  :-)

I agree with you Jean, you have always offered me excellent advice.
The last thing i would want to do is breed in  the inability to whelp naturally. Does the fact that she whelped naturally the first time make no difference in your opinion?

You have to make that call!!!  :-)

I think you have to take this into consideration.  It may well be that, as a large pup was the culprit, you could get a straightforward whelping next time.  I had a bitch that was expected to self whelp, and she had been contracting strongly for an hour so I raced out to the veterinary hospital.  A scan revealed two pups lying side by side jammed into the same uterine horn.  They looked like conjoined twins!  I asked for an immediate section and two healthy identical pups were delivered.

I spoke to my vet and he said it was just a bad presentation, and she could probably whelp ok next time.  But being cut open once is my decision maker and I didn't mate her again.  I did keep a bitch from the litter but she has never been mated and is being spayed in December.

I definitely won't breed from the bitch that had the section again, just not worth the risk, plus she has already had two litters.
It is just whether her daughter should go as a pet or stay as a breeding bitch that I am debating. If I don't breed from the bitch I originally posted about, this puppy is my only option. (Unless I use my original bitch again, I would rather not as she is too precious to me.) So I am trying to plan ahead. Her mum has proven that she is capable of whelping naturally, but wouldn't have been able to with this litter, so it's a difficult decision.

Were your pups actually identical twins, sharing a placenta?

I had the bitch I originally posted about looked over by a vet prior to her last season, but it wasn't the vet I prefer. He checked her heart, eyes and joints, and declared her pelvis wide enough, but didn't appear to do any actual checks on it. Should I get a second opinion? (That vet is the one who thinks low-grade LP is 'normal' in Chihuahuas....)

>That vet is the one who thinks low-grade LP is 'normal' in Chihuahuas

Grrrrrrrr!!  I won't breed from a bitch that has patella problems either!

As mum has had 2 litters, if it was my dogs and my decision, I guess I would have the adult bitch spayed and try with the puppy.

My pups were different sexes, so not sharing the same placenta.  They were exactly the same length and width, exactly the same weight, and markings were identical.  As my first love is the Pastoral breeds,, and as these pups were jet black with white socks and white chests I pretended I had a Border Collie litter.  :-)