Hi all, we  have 2 1year old bitches they are both staffies (one if 4 weeks older) the one we are having problems with its our eldest dog Mitsy, she is the most perfect dog in the house she is loving playful and quiet, but as soon as we go to put her lead on she grows horns!! once Mitsy finished all her jabs and was allowed out for a walk she would not go she was scared of everything she would plonk her bum on the floor and was not moving (I had to carry her most of the time) then we got Millie and when she was allowed out for a walk she also refused to go so we got them together and walked then and hooray they walked. now they are getting older and a lot stronger when we get back my arms feel like they are going to fall off! Millie walks great if she's in front and Mitsy just pulls whether she's in front or behind. so we tried walking them separately and this only works for about 5 minutes then we go for a drag! I don't feel in control of them. we have tried many different things, half chocker's but because of their breed (so the websites say) they are a kind of dog that will just pull and pull until they pass out. I have tried every time she pulls me I stop make her sit and she carries on but only on my terms... doesn't work. iv tried putting her on a very short lead (but no tension) and telling her she's a good girl etc. and giving her a treat.... she refuses them. when we get to a good safe area they get let off the leads and even then she's very temperamental she will come back when she's good and ready there has been a few occasions where she's gone too far away and couldn't find her way back. generally she doesn't go far. I need help with how to become the more dominate one the 'pack leader' as such but they are my mother-in-laws dogs so I don't walk them all the time and she's so relaxed she wont carry on the training I try and do with them, but after taking them yesterday. My hands are blistered and sore I cant keep putting my poor arms and hand through this!

Being dominant or the pack leader is no longer regarded as correct.
Try googling halters for dogs, there are several different types, as that can be a very useful kind way of stopping dogs from pulling as they control the head of the dog not the neck. There will be YouTube videos showing the correct usage af halters as it is possible for dogs to learn to pull in them if not used correctly. I am sure there will also be videos showing you how to train your dog to accept wearing a halter as they are not popular to begin with. I have used one called a Dogmatic halter which I felt did the job very well.

Thanks I will have a look, on,y problem is she's scared or her collar harness and lead so I will see how it goes

Have you thought about taking her or them to training classes? These can be useful if you manage to find a good trainer as it gives you some ideas on what to try and the trainer can watch you and the dog to see what may work for you.

Every step you take whilst a dog is pulling on the lead is teaching the dog to pull.

Do not take a SINGLE step untill the dog slakens off from pulling. Mark that INSTANTLY with a GOOD GIRL (or whatever your prefered saying) and you can pair this with a food treat too.
Then you can take a step. If the dog pulls, stand still untill the lead slakens & so on.

This is the method used to teach my English Mastiff to walk nicely on a lead. Consistency is key, it amounts to 'pulling gets you nothing, NOT pulling gets you places'.

All animals learn best when they are rewarded for their behaviour, that reward can be an external reward (ie, a person giving the dog a treat/toy etc) or internaly (ie, they feel good for doing something). Your dogs are being rewarded for pulling by getting where they want to go. Forget the 'domination' type stuff and start thinking 'reward'.

The dominance theory was created by John Fisher, founder of APDT UK (association of pet dog trainers). It was a commercial sales term he used which he & members of APDT sold to pet owners as a 'Dominance reduction treatment program' to do whatever dib dabs they sold to pet owners.

Eventually a commercial competitor to that theory, Dr Rachel Casey, Bristol uni,a member of a commercial competitors organization called APBC (association pet dog behaviour counsellors) to some trainers, did a study named "Is dominance a useful construct" or words to that effect.

She then publisized it around the net as a study on dominance, however she never publisized on what 'type' of dogs, how many & under what conditions the study was done, she claimed dogs dont show dominance & therefor "dominance" is not a useful construct to use.

Since then a peer review of her study was published in video form & in a context the peer thinks the study should be seen, click link below to watch it. The type of dogs used, the number of dogs & the conditions of which the dogs were 'studied' are given in the review.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTkYZi10GU
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Do not take a SINGLE step untill the dog slakens off from pulling. Mark that INSTANTLY with a GOOD GIRL (or whatever your prefered saying) and you can pair this with a food treat too. Then you can take a step. If the dog pulls, stand still untill the lead slakens & so on.

I did this when I had my first Bedlington.   If I'd carried on doing it, I'd still be out there 13 years later, standing and getting maybe one step at a time.  I'd probably not have reached the end of the street.

The fact is, that with some breeds, and some dogs, the stop and wait simply doesn't work.  

What I found worked with mine, was to change direction very quickly when the dog lunged/hurtled forwards.   At first you find you're changing directions every few seconds, and I did get quite dizzy with my  first pup as she had her own ideas of who was in charge and where we would go.   But she soon got interested in where I was going and started having fun with it, trying to keep up with me.

The key to this is to keep the hand holding the lead tightly held to the body and to completely change direction, at least 90 degrees, if not more.   Doing this whilst talking quietly, but in an interesting way (lets go this way, or this way, ooh what's over here!, where will I go next? ), to the  dog, should get their attention very quickly.   It also gets the  dog to look at you as they don't know where you are going next and you are suddenly very interesting :-)

I've used  this method with puppies and with older dogs with great success.   And it reduces the frustration of not getting any further than the end of the garden path after three months.

> I did this when I had my first Bedlington.   If I'd carried on doing it, I'd still be out there 13 years later, standing and getting maybe one step at a time.  I'd probably not have reached the end of the street.

Well, if you couldn't get this method to work, it must be a pointless method.

It's a pity you never spoke up sooner. I could have saved my time and not bothered offering the OP any advice. I figured as she has extremeley strong dogs too, she'd have gained a little confidence from knowing it IS possible to teach tank-like dogs to walk on a slack lead and also found it a huge bonus that the tree method also helps teach a lot of self control and patience. But, what do I know.

I now remember why I have been avoiding this forum. The way some don't seem to want to offer advice to posters untill they have another post to mock. There are plenty of methods within dog training I have tried and not got on with, I assumed that as we are as individual as our dogs, it's a matter of what works for one will not work for all - not that the method is flawed, looks like I have that wrong too.

   > I did this when I had my first Bedlington.   If I'd carried on doing it, I'd still be out there 13 years later, standing and getting maybe one step at a time.  I'd probably not have reached the end of the street.

Well, if you couldn't get this method to work, it must be a pointless method.

If you think your method is pointless that's your own opinion.   But if you read what I wrote, it isn't what I said.

I merely pointed out that with some breeds, and some dogs within breeds, your method won't work.
   
Staffies are exciteable, as many terriers are, and trying to do as you have done with your dog can just wind them up more.  Part of a terrier's nature is that they don't give up, it's the way they are.  A trait needed in a dog which tackles 'game' which will fight back and can cause actual damage to the dog.   Staffies were bred for dog fighting, and a dog that gave up would have been useless in a fight, so only the most 'game' were kept.  Game in this sense, meaning brave and tenacious.

Another trait is that they often 'think for themselves' which means that you can train them every day for years, yet they will still assess whether they think it's worth doing as you ask, and do as they please.  There are people who believe it's impossible to train a terrier, but it just takes a different approach and some lateral thinking, as well as consistency and kindness.

Terriers are totally different to Mastiffs, Gundogs, Collies,  etc.

As for not offering advice until there's another post to mock, the only mocking here is you.  Your post is distinctly and unecessarily sarcastic.

I posted when I saw the thread.   Nothing more or less. 

If you see that as a personal criticism, then that's your own problem.   But please don't put words and meanings into my post that aren't there.

PS  All my dogs walk on a slack lead.   As show Bedlingtons, that is how they are shown, and I wouldn't ever walk a dog strung up or on a tight lead.  No fun for the dog or myself :)

Terriers are totally different to Mastiffs, Gundogs, Collies,

Exactly, its good of you to point that out as some have obviously not yet reached that understanding of dogs.
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It's a pity you never spoke up sooner. I could have saved my time and not bothered offering the OP any advice.

Gettin' the ump aint cool!
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Mastiff lover, I dont think dill meant it in the way you took it :-)
Youve both given your opinion on a tried and tested method that worked for you and your dogs. The op can try noth and see what works best:-)

I would recommend training classes for sure, and also find a harness works well as you have much more control over the body which holds the bulk of the dogs weight rather than just controlling the head.
How are the two dogs when walked alone? Are they better? Perhaps they get excitable because they are together?

I think the biggest problem is that neither of these dogs is actually trained to walk nicely on a lead :(     

Remedial work will need to be done separately, until both can walk nicely and with confidence, then more training to walk together.  Training two dogs at the same time, is 3x the work of training one dog, then getting another dog.  ;-)

Do the dogs get exercise in between OP walking them?      If not they will be super-excited to be going out, which won't help with training.

> I think the biggest problem is that neither of these dogs is actually trained to walk nicely on a lead :-( 

yes, and theres 2x the work required now - to break the bad habit of pulling whilst simultaneously training to walk nicely on the lead. I would definitely say they need to be exercised seperately until the problems are rectified and as you say, if they are not being exercised enough that will also make the battle harder as they will be more excitable and pleased to be going out.

First things first these dogs need to be walked seperatly for some time. If that is not possible due to time then you need two people to walk them. The "tree" method works when you have time and determination but I have found it to be time consuming and long winded, expecially with two dogs at the same time. I would be more inclined to try the sharp about turns and left turns. I find the left turns work best as the dog soon realizes if it does not watch you it may get in the way! My pup at 8 months needs to be everywhere yesterday at the moment and is learning that the more she pulls the less she does and so is slowly but surely getting the message. We use a combination of stops, left and right turns all of these focus her on me and watching what I am going to do so she pulls less and watches more.
Aileen

Ahhh  Aileen, you explain it far better than I can :-)