Hypothetical Question:

Someone turns to you as a responsible breeder and/or knowledgeable person and asks for your help.

Rightly or wrongly they have bred a litter but not gone about it in a manner that you consider to be correct. Let's say that the parents are unregistered and/or are not health tested. The litter is on the ground but the 'breeder' is struggling to find the right homes. They may or may not be aware that they have gone about things the wrong way. You may not like it but there are still those out there that still think 'breeding' a litter is as simple as putting (any) two dogs together.

But, they realise that they now need help (for the good of their puppies) and they turn to you for help - so what do you do?

1) Tear them off a strip, giving them a lengthy lecture about how they have done everything wrong and how they have 'made their bed so you can jolly well lay in it now' and then send them packing. It's not 'your problem', so why should you try to help? .

or

2) Remember that we all started somewhere. Point out the downside to breeding from untested/unregistered stock but do your best to help THE PUPPIES to find good homes and see if you can educate the breeder (so that it does not happen again) along the way. Try and turn a negative situation into a positive outcome for the puppies.

or

3) Point out the error of their ways and then suggest they contact rescue to sort it out (because Rescue do not have enough to do already do they?!!) :)

The point for me is that the breeder going about it wrongly should not profit from their ignorance/mistakes/lack of care.

They can continue to try and find homes same as the rest of us do.

So yes rescue is the route to go, but that should only be to help locate homes, not to care for the pups and the breeder should expect to contribute for the help.

Alternatively I have suggested that the breeder gets the relevant health testing done, and if unregistered sell the pups for less than registered pups, but more than non health tested ones of their breed.

I'd certainly pass on puppy enquiries if the health testing is done, even if pups unregistered, explaining to would b e buyers that it was a mistake but rectified as far as the important aspects went.

If we make it easy fro people then they will as they are doing continue to breed this way if they can turn a fast buck with little cost or effort.

I would not help because if they find homes for the pups that way, THEY WILL BREED AGAIN. If they want to start breeding, they have years of work ahead of them first -not just the health testing but first they need to get INVOLVED in dogs, in the breed via showing or working, the breed club etc. So I don't for even a nano second subscribe to the viewpoint that everyone had to start somewhere, because breeding should never be the start.

As in all walks of life, there are fools..... and then there are their facilitators.

The modern nanny state has led us to a place where juvenile delinquents are sent on skiing holidays, given laptops and we will help them sell their litter of 'staffies'.... :-(

Maybe its the lack of consequences for actions which has lead us to this place.

Combination of (2) and (3) personally, they should be educated in what they did wrong, and the puppies should be helped to find good homes, including using rescue if needed, but the breeder should not have too easy a time of it or they will just breed again.

I wouldn't help for a number of reasons.  If we make it easy for them to find homes then they'll do it again.

And how could I find good homes when all the good homes that I would have on my list would expect their puppy to come from health tested ancestors and quality parents? 

How could I possibly recommend that anyone bought a badly bred puppy from a BYB?  That's no better than suggesting that they go and buy from a puppy farm..........

Would those of you that breed worry that helping someone like this would damage your reputation as a responsible breeder? 

How could you recommend one of these poorly planned puppies to anyone whilst telling your buyers that health testing is paramount?

In a world where it takes many years to build a successful kennel I don't see why anyone would risk any association with a BYB.  Fair enough IMO.

Very interesting replies. However, it would appear I worded my question badly because you have all assumed that I meant an established breeder when in fact, I had actually meant a first time breeder . So with that in mind, are your answers the same?

For me exactly the same comments would apply.  How could I recommend that any kind, caring, responsible family should take on the potential grief of a badly bred puppy?  Our rescue kennels are full of them for those who wish to do so. :(

If we make it easy for a first time puppy producer to home their puppies, even if they only make a few pounds, for those with little income, then they'll do it again.  :(

Probably 1, I spend a lot of time taking calls from people looking for a pup in my breed (They are not plentiful) and I give all sorts of advice about finding a good breeder. I have no problems explaining why they should not get a pup from a BYB or puppy farm and I would never encourage anyone to perpetuate the production of puppies for cash no matter what the circumstances. Sorry they would have to sort it out by themselves.
Aileen

My answer was very much based on the assumption that it was a first time breeder.

> How could I possibly recommend that anyone bought a badly bred puppy from a BYB

While I quite understand the comments by the established breeders here and understand the reasoning for not doing 2 or 3, can I take it that they would suggest to the breeder that they have the pups PTS to avoid "anyone buying a badly bred puppy from a BYB" because, otherwise, someone somewhere would have to take these puppies on ?

The decision of what to do with the puppies would rest with the breeder not myself. If they chose the route of PTS why should I then feel it was my fault?
Would you prefer it if people like me recommended getting pups from BYB or even ignorant first time breeders who could not be bothered to find out things for themselves first ?
Like myself if I had a litter and could not sell them they would stay with me until loving homes could be found. I would suggest to the breeder of this hypothetical litter that they do the same.
Please do not assume I wish all poorly bred puppies be PTS they need good loving homes as do all pups but I could not see why I or any of the other posters who said the same should then feel they have to have the death of a pup on their conscience. That would be entirely the breeders responsibility.
Aileen

> can I take it that they would suggest to the breeder that they have the pups PTS to avoid "anyone buying a badly bred puppy from a BYB" because, otherwise, someone somewhere would have to take these puppies on

It's one answer, though one would hope that they would have been encouraged to terminate a real accident.

Again why are vets not advertising Alizin?, or indeed offering to spay an in whelp bitch, after all it can't be any more risky than an elective C section.

For a litter already on the ground, they can go into rescue for those prepared top take pot luck on the outcome of a puppy.

Have no sympathy for anyone setting out to breed and not doing it properly, and a serious drain on their pockets is the least they should suffer, be that having to give the pups away via rescue, keep all unsold ones themselves, or having to wait until someone is prepared to take one on.

I take it that they would suggest to the breeder that they have the pups PTS to avoid "anyone buying a badly bred puppy from a BYB" because, otherwise, someone somewhere would have to take these puppies on ?

Not a nice thought I do agree BUT our rescue centres are full of badly bred dogs and there are never enough homes for all of them.  Some I know from personal experience, spend months and even years being fed and watered but being given little time or socialisation.  For me, that is a much worse future to contemplate than a painless injection.

I was a veterinary nurse almost 50 years ago.  Pedigree dogs were rare and only affordable by families with money.  Ordinary families had mongrels.  Accidental litters, always mongrels, weren't common and most of those that were born were put in a bucket at birth.  These days a trip to the vet is considered a more humane option. 

For me to let those responsible suffer the embarrasment, upset and financial cost of their irresponsible actions might teach a better lesson than passing on the problems that they've produced onto unsuspecting families.

> The decision of what to do with the puppies would rest with the breeder not myself. If they chose the route of PTS why should I then feel it was my fault?

Sorry - I didn't say that it would be your fault ??

The question is hypothetical, of course. I am trying to understand why, if flooding rescue with badly bred puppies is wrong - someone somewhere will have to take them - or they would be PTS - and selling directly to owners is also wrong - what else could happen to the puppies apart from PTS. Surely, advising the breeder to keep them all (and it could be more than 1 or 2) would never be good for the puppies as the breeder is unlikely to be able to cope and then rescue would still be involved or PTS.

Surely some words of advice (even if it's PTS) have to be better than "slamming the door in the face" ?

> For me to let those responsible suffer the embarrasment, upset and financial cost of their irresponsible actions might teach a better lesson than passing > on the problems that they've produced onto unsuspecting families

Thank you :)

It's a great moral dilemma, and I don't believe there's as cut and dried a solution as one might think...

For me if the person was a proven (not presumed) G-reeder (doggedly breeding for monetary gain only) I would not help.

However...
In this hypothetical scenario Admin has stated

>But, they realise that they now need help (for the good of their puppies)

Then I would help with advice only, not my money or my time, I would expect them to continue to do the leg work.. Their dogs, their responsibility as guardian of their dogs. I would make suggestions of what to do, who to contact, how to manage, train and health check to improve chances of re-homing... But the work is theirs to do.

I would not advocate rescue (passing the buck in my eyes.... Which may be jaded as in the Siberian Husky world we have been exhausted with rescues to a point where the breed club had to temporarily close it's doors and can now only accept registered dogs! The line had to drawn somewhere no one could cope with the numbers)

I have mentioned 'G-reeders' but I do believe that there is still a large percentage of ill-educated breeders that are in fact not Greeders!
I experienced this first hand 2 months ago and it challenged my perception of what I would do on this very moral dilemma posed by Admin:

I was contacted by a work colleague, he and his wife had a young working gundog they were told by their breeder that it was good for bitches to have a litter and that in fact not having a litter could have detrimental health consequences and put her at risk from ovarian cancers etc etc ( lots of inaccurate science thrown at them) this was their first dog.... Yes they should have educated themselves (internet searches are easy) but they chose to accept the advice that 'the expert' was giving them.
     Now this is a well educated couple one working in scientific research (physics not biology!) the other a very senior and respected Police officer who regularly flies out to other countries as a leading advisor.

My point I guess wether we like it and wether we believe it or not.... Many people have absolutely no idea that in the modern world the legacy of bad breeding has meant many breeds are not as robust as we might expect and sadly yes, health testing is very necessary as is the skill of matching the right sire and dam genetically.

Here we have a very educated 'nice' couple who had no idea... They tried to get 'expert' help their breeder was quite the con merchant and talked a very credible game and worse to my mind they even went to their vet who (as we know many do) gave the bitch a generic MOT and not the required breed tests and said "yes, she fit healthy and you can mate her' they had even told the vet the breeder had told them it was good for the bitch to have a litter, the vet did not query this.

So I sometimes think there are many more people in the error chain than just the person with the litter.

I wonder if these circumstances would change anyone's opinion of not helping to helping?

I helped, as Admin said 'turn a negative into a positive' sometimes the way you go about it or the individual circumstances may mean you are not promoting bad breeding and encouraging someone to do it again.

Sometimes in life it really isn't the mistakes we make that we should be judged for (we all make mistakes) but what we do about it after that we should be judged by!

If someone is actively trying to now right a wrong for the welfare of their dogs and not themselves I will help.

So I sometimes think there are many more people in the error chain than just the person with the litter.

I wonder if these circumstances would change anyone's opinion of not helping to helping?

Interesting HG and yes -I would say that for me, those kind of circumstances WOULD change my mind to a certain extent. If the bitch owners had sought the help of the two most respected dog people they could think of, eg. the bitch's breeder and their vet, then they were seriously mislead. And they would have had no reason to distrust those two people and look further. I could have a degree of sympathy here for sure. The big question is then what to do? You cannot recommend a litter from untested parents to anyone, with a clear conscience. I think the only thing I could possibly suggest would be 100 % honesty. I'd tell them to advertise the litter for a much reduced price, stating parents not health tested being the reason for the price, and advice them on how to pick suitable owners so that the pups didn't just go to those after a bargain. Other than that I can't think of anything.

I'd tell them to advertise the litter for a much reduced price, stating parents not health tested being the reason for the price,
And tell them to suggest to the new owners that they take out lifetime cover insurance?  :)

Not sure WestCoast -wouldn't that go against a lot of insurance companies policies? I.e. they won't pay up for something that could have been prevented?

Lots of interesting replies with many differing points of view.

I have also been asked to help out with finding homes for puppies from non-health screened parents.  If I've had a puppy enquiry, I will pass on the details but point out to a potential new owner the importance of testing etc and they must understand what they are doing before proceeding.  Many people are after a 'pedigree' puppy at a cheaper price so it may well suit them.

If I have an enquiry for my stud dog from a first timer, I explain all about the health tests required, some have them done and others don't bother and I never hear from them again.  Which brings up another question, should be allow our health tested dogs be used on un-tested bitches.  Is it better to have one parent screened rather than neither when they use the dog down the road?

I do think it does depend on the breeder who has such puppies, some are not interested in doing things the right way and are not willing to listen to advice, especially when you say how hard work it can be, and finding suitable homes for the puppies is probably the hardest part!  I agree we all had to start somewhere but in this day and age, with sites such as this, help and advice is always easy to come by, many breeders are only too happy help out when a pup they bred is considered for a litter.  I have had a lot of pleasure from such people who have had pups from me and gone on to have a litter.

>Which brings up another question, should be allow our health tested dogs be used on un-tested bitches.  Is it better to have one parent screened rather than neither when they use the dog down the road?

Very good question Ells-Bells and one that rightly deserves it's own thread :)

From my point of view, how would I or many others know people who would want an unregistered/untested parents/pups, litter, I don't know anyone?  And I would just never want my name associated with such a litter.

It may be looked at as being mean, but it would be everything I don't believe in, how could any responsible breeder source people to have pups they know nothing about? Who may it come back on if the pups had a genetic disorder, bad temperament etc? I absolutely would not want it coming back to bite me on the bum.

I would point them to websites that they could advertise on, but that would be it I'm afraid. I would not 'tear them off a strip' I would as kindly as possible explain why I wouldn't help source homes for them and explain good breeding practices.

No.1 answer sounds really mean the way it has been written, but it would be the one that I would have to stand by, myself and other responsible breeders work so hard and spend so much money getting it as right as possible how could we just flippantly look at a litter not representative of all our hard work.

When people have my pups I like to feel that sense of happiness knowing I've hopefully given a healthy, long lived dog with a great temperament, and made others happy too. I would be constantly looking over my shoulder and feel terrible being involved in passing unknown pups to others, my conscience couldn't live with it I'm afraid. :-( 

Working where I do, I've come across very very many people who in all honesty don't give a stuff about registration or health testing. And in the same way I know plenty of people who're more than happy to supply them with such pups.

Yes JG, you must really be in the thick of it where you work, you're getting a birds eye view of the problem re: breeding.

I loved the idea put forward recently on the other thread that veterinaries could have posters up with regards to breeding, something like:   Thinking of breeding from your dog/bitch?   Have you done the necessary health tests for your breed? Please do not pass on genetic disorders and unhealthy puppies to unsuspecting owners.   Vets have so many posters and notices about other things, I think it would be a great way to hit a large percentage of breeders, not the puppy farmers, but many BYB's and people who just think their pet should have a litter.

It could help............ a lot. :-)  Many just breed without thinking, it would be a place to start that thinking, which may lead onto actually researching, everything from KC reg, to caring for the dam and pups, and then the hypothetical situation on this thread may never happen........... much! :-)

The poster idea's a good one; I'll have to work on one. Shame the KC hasn't brought out an official one. Perhaps I'll suggest it to them.

Fantastic JG, :-)

It wouldn't just be an eye catcher for potential breeders but would also sow the seed into the minds of people catching sight of it who may be looking to buy a puppy. ;-)

I'm going to have a chat with my vet about it too. Fingers crossed.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I loved the idea put forward recently on the other thread that veterinaries could have posters up with regards to breeding, something like:   Thinking of breeding from your dog/bitch?   Have you done the necessary health tests for your breed? Please do not pass on genetic disorders and unhealthy puppies to unsuspecting owners.   Vets have so many posters and notices about other things, I think it would be a great way to hit a large percentage of breeders, not the puppy farmers, but many BYB's and people who just think their pet should have a litter.<br />

The Canadian no puppy mills Canada website used to have statistics from the USA from about 15 years ago that showed that the vast majority of puppies that were likely to end up in rescue were not bred by puppy farms,b tu the oen fof pet litters multiplied by thousands.

Most people know or would think to avoid an outright puppy farm, bgut6 would actually think the 'pet bred' litter the best compared to a breed enthusiast breeding or an obvious  commercial breeder, but in fact they are actually the source of more rescue dogs due to the breeders and buyers ignorance and lack of commitment.

So the vets profession could make a major impact on  discouraging such litters, and not just with the 'sledge hammer to crack a nut' of early neutering. 

Especially as so many of such breeders may not feel they can afford expensive neutering cost, and some even look to selling the pups to fund spaying the bitch.

Thinking of breeding from your dog/bitch?   Have you done the necessary health tests for your breed? Please do not pass on genetic disorders and unhealthy puppies to unsuspecting owners. 

Unfortunately, I can't see Vets agreeing to that because badly bred puppies is where most of their work comes from and they have need to make a living. 

I once knew a Vet who told me that was why he encouraged pet owners to breed because they were the people who would need his services, not experienced breeders. :( :(

I once knew a Vet who told me that was why he encouraged pet owners to breed because they were the people who would need his services, not experienced breeders. :-( :-(

There are good and bad in all walks of life and I absolutely refuse to believe that vet is not the great minority. I certainly have never come across one like that! On the other hand, I knew a vet who told all her clients with sick dogs that BREEDERS deliberately bred sick dogs that would die young, because that way they would get to sell more puppies!!

Vets make plenty of money from the responsible breeder in the way of hip x-rays, vaccinations, frequent checks for this and that etc etc, plus the responsible breeder is the one far more likely to appear for a c-section when something goes wrong, rather than just wait and hope for the best. We take newborn pups to the vet in the hope of saving one not thiriving, whereas the irresponsible will not even try and just accept losses. I could go on!

I too think the KC ought to produce a poster outlining the very basics on health testing before breeding.

> Vets make plenty of money from the responsible breeder in the way of hip x-rays, vaccinations, frequent checks for this and that etc etc

We are not exactly short of responsible breeders/owners on here that have had medical problems with their dogs - other than those directly related to old age. Just look at Rainbow Bridge.

My vets used to refer anyone who wanted to breed my breed to me. I used to start off by telling them all the minus points and managed to put quite a few very nice but innocent people off.

If I couldn't put them off I would then refer them to the breed club so at least they had all the info they needed.

We are not exactly short of responsible breeders/owners on here that have had medical problems with their dogs - other than those directly related to old age. Just look at Rainbow Bridge.

I understand what you're saying but the fees that I read about on here are nothing compared to the amounts that pet breeders and insured pet owners pay! 

Because of my 'previous life' I have and have had many Vets who are personal friends and so suspect that we have different conversations. ;) :)

We are not exactly short of responsible breeders/owners on here that have had medical problems with their dogs - other than those directly related to old age. Just look at Rainbow Bridge.

I understand what you're saying but the fees that I read about on here are nothing compared to the amounts that pet breeders and insured pet owners pay!  A friend spent £4500 in 6 weeks on her aged lurcher having been told that the nasal mass might be a polyp when it was always obvious it was a tumour.  Unfortunately her insurance company was E&L so they ended up seriously out of pocket as well as losing her dog. :(:(

Because of my 'previous life' I have and have had many Vets who are personal friends and so suspect that we have different conversations than Vet/staff and Vet/client relationships. ;) :)

I understand what you're saying but the fees that I read about on here are nothing compared to the amounts that pet breeders and insured pet owners pay!

But the examples you give don't back up your vet's statement that it is the pet BREEDERS that bring them  the money -surely the aged Lurcher's tumour was nothing to do with breeding?

You're right of course. :)  I was thinking about a friend who as a pet owner did as they're told because they don't have the depth of knowledge that experienced breeders have. :)  I knew when I saw the first x-ray that there was little future for this dog but she was talked into putting it through very invasive tests before the same conclusion was arrived at. :(

I should have said that those who produce puppies unknowingly with entropian, ectropian, luxating patella, untested eye problems, hip problems, hernias and endless other defects are actually producing ongoing income that needs to be sorted.

As we often try to explain on here, buying untested puppies bred with nothing but ignorance can lead to high vets bills as well as family anguish.  :)

I have come across many vets who undoubtably have the animals best interest at heart (the best we can hope for eh?) and happen to make a good income along the way.  And others who see it as a good business project. :(

I once knew a Vet who told me that was why he encouraged pet owners to breed because they were the people who would need his services, not experienced breeders.

What a terrible vet.

Makes me feel so upset that some vets just constantly think about the money. They used to just care for the animals and honour their oath they were never wealthy.......... We have so many more veterinaries than when I was a child and that is because we have so many pet owners now, you'd think these types of vets were making enough money without needing to invent problems.

Still, we know many vets are also on the bandwagon in trying to stop genetic problems and I guess these are the ones we have to hope will dissuade people from willy, nilly, breeding. ;-)

But, thinking about it, shouldn't it be a part of a vets training at the RVC that when a client suggests is their dog/bitch ok for breeding as many of the pet breeders who visit the board have told us they have done, that it should be part of a programmed answer to strongly suggest the health tests? Maybe this is the missing link  After all if it is mainly money they are interested in the health screening as we know would fill their pockets. I honestly don't know how vets can say yes, and why they have a complete lack of understanding of breeding when it is such a massive problem.

Actually, I think that might be worth suggesting to the RVC, why they do not recommend health tests for breeding enquires, it should be par for the course. **Shrugging shoulders**

Hypothetical Question:

Someone turns to you as a responsible breeder and/or knowledgeable person and asks for your help.

Rightly or wrongly they have bred a litter but not gone about it in a manner that you consider to be correct. Let's say that the parents are unregistered and/or are not health tested. The litter is on the ground but the 'breeder' is struggling to find the right homes. They may or may not be aware that they have gone about things the wrong way. You may not like it but there are still those out there that still think 'breeding' a litter is as simple as putting (any) two dogs together.

But, they realise that they now need help (for the good of their puppies) and they turn to you for help - so what do you do?

Can we get back to the original question please? :)

Tell them to get the health testing done, and only then would I consider helping find homes.

Otherwise it's they have the option of asking a rescue to help them find homes (note not take the pups on), and of course re-imburse rescue for any costs incurred.

Otherwise they will just have to keep them, or have them humanely destroyed.  It is what a rescue would have to do.

Hypothetical Questions:
So you help them home their ten staffie puppies .....eventually.  The 'best home' principal is perhaps compromised somewhat, an emergency after all. Those buyers weren't too picky about health testing....hmmmm. We wont even go into the unknowns here, temperament, rearing etc.

All the worry and strife slowly evaporates from the 'breeders' memory but they still have the 42" flat screen to remind them of how a few bob can be made from their dog. Maybe not quite as much as their friends had said but handy none the less.
Next time they ask someone else's help.

You think you've done the bitch and the puppies a service? The 'breed'? Just who have you helped in the long run?

>they realise that they now need help (for the good of their puppies)

It's rarely for the good of the puppies but the good of their purse and convenience .  Puppies as they become older are more work, and more expensive to keep.

They need vaccinating, training etc.

That expected profit is fast disappearing.

Good breeders don't have an issue with waiting for the right homes with puppies getting older, yet these people often are panicking because pups haven't gone by 8 weeks.

:-D  Ok, back on track.......

I like Brainless's idea there, I guess it's a start to getting better help from those of us who would find it hard to be involved with puppies like this, although there is so much more to a pup than even the required health tests, the temperament, character, build, coat, abilities etc... the list goes on all factored in when matching the correct stud and dam........... but, it would be a start in making a new potential owner feel more satisfied too.

I would never wish to see any pups or a dam suffer and would always help with the whelping, rearing of pups and the dam, (even if I was really upset about the breeding and I have done that a couple of times all be it begrudgingly in the past, I would hate any dog to die through negligence)

I personally could not advise anyone to pts their litter, we've had that question before and although I agree sometimes it is the only viable answer, I know I would just build kennels to accommodate my own litter if ever needed, and spend time training one on one until homed, so could never tell others to do what I couldn't. But if they were not willing to take on their responsibility maybe pts would not be so hard for them?

The litter is on the ground but the 'breeder' is struggling to find the right homes.

The shinning light in your questions is that the hypothetical breeder cannot find the right homes, so they would not appear to be the types to just whack the pups up on a free add site at a lower price to just sell them on, and that is the shinning light, perhaps these 'people' do care and now do realise........... I guess that may well make me wish to help with the vetting process (if I've turned soft enough by then :-D ) after all, if you do not have a litter to sell by reputation you need those vetting techniques to find the right homes and it can be a long and hard job sifting through all enquires, especially as there are not many great places to advertise pups like this, but for every 50 enquires there may be one that is suitable, vetting is one of the hardest parts...........you have to be very patient. (Which is why it is best done prior to whelping) a 'breeder' like this would find it overwhelming if they truly care about these pups future homes.

Until the right people come along, the only other advice would be to perhaps do as I hypothetically would do and build kennels until that time, or if a small breed just segregate as best as possible in the home, as you cannot keep a litter permanently together after 8 weeks they would just go wild and be too hard to bond with their human. Or suggest finding foster homes via friends for the pups until that time.

We know there are plenty of people out there who have pups not health tested or KC reg so eventually a home will come along particularly for a pup, the best advice would be to be patient and wait for those right homes, so that the puppies are not passed on again or returned to breeder, it's just finding a way to make do until then. :-)

My neighbours bred their Staffy some time ago (they owned both dog and bitch) The first we knew was when the pups were on the ground and they were anticipating how much money they'd make from 7 pups!!

It was all so easy.   The pups didn't poo in the house while the owners were at work ( yeah right!).  Yet they weren't left outside or we'd have heard them - Staff pups aren't quiet!   They claimed pups were kept in the living room.  The mess must have been horrendous, both owners work full time!

A notice was put in the front window advertising the pups and their price.

By the time the pups were 12 weeks old there were still at least 4 left.   I was offered 2 at a knock down price - Fully vaccinated   Er no thanks!

Four weeks later, just before Christmas, I saw the 4 pups loaded into the back of the car and driven off.  Never saw or heard them again.

I didn't ask what they did with the pups, not that friendly with them.

But they've never bred again.   Result!

On the downside, the Bitch had to have her patellas done 18 months later, so likely the pups will need that too :(

So my answer is, no I wouldn't help, except to advise health testing before sale and how to get it done.   If you help pick up the pieces, there's no deterrant.   If the breeders have to experience the consequences, they'll think twice before doing it again.

prehapse the litter is of a type that would interest one of the service dogs charities? dogs for deaf, disabled assistance etc? that would be a line to inquire of if it were put to me-and has advantage that the pups would get 5* care/training and the breeder no money.

I would suggest places where they can advertise their puppies, and make a start at getting health testing done so that they can then add the results to adverts for the ones that continue with them unsold.

But, they realise that they now need help (for the good of their puppies) and they turn to you for help - so what do you do?

I still wouldn't help to home the puppies.  Why should potential problem puppies be put into home?  Even less why would any charity spend time and money to train them and cause grief to people who already have problems when the pups may have suspect temperaments or hereditary problems?

There will be few 'good' homes who would be prepared to take on badly bred puppies and so I don't consider that I'd be helping the puppies by placing in such homes and risk them ending up in kennels when they developed problems.

No, however you word it, I consider the kindest thing to do would be to advise the owner to put the pups to sleep and let the puppy producers realise their errors of judgment not pass their potential problems on to other people.

Some service dog charities do use cross breeds (some of which may well not have had health tested parents), however, these service dogs take time and quite a bit of money to train up for their disabled partners.  When these dogs are placed their partners are very dependent on them and the last thing they need is a dog that is more likely to suffer from it's own health issues.

Again the breeder might even feel pleased with themselves that they had possibly made a small profit and "supported" a charity!

I'm the Breeding Scheme Supervisor at Hearing Dogs for Deaf People and external sourcing of pups also comes under my department. We only externally source a very limited number of breeds - at the moment only Cockers and Miniature Poodles as our external Labs come from Guide Dogs - and we would not buy unregistered or un-health tested pups. All of our own breeding dogs are fully health tested and we look for the same in any pups we source externally. We get phone calls week in week out from people with litters/puppies trying to sell or give them to us, all kinds of breeds and crosses - you wouldn't believe some of them! - accidental and otherwise. The vast majority of the time our external selector does the legwork and sources pups from appropriate breeders but if someone contacts us and they've got one of 'our' breeds, registered, a decent pedigree, health tested, under 8 weeks old (we don't buy anything over 10 weeks max and prefer to assess and choose at 6 weeks and bring in at 8), and are within a 3-4 hour drive of our centre here in Bucks then we will go to assess them and hopefully would find one or two in the litter that are suitable to buy (we seldom have pups given to us for free, we expect to pay the going rate for well bred puppies and we wouldn't take some just because they were free unless they met all the other criteria).

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  :)  That's exactly the reply that I would have hoped for. 

I have a friend with a Type I Diabetic Granddaughter.  Her Mother was approached by a local representative for a Cyprus dog rescue.  She was told that they have a rescue dog who they thought would be a perfect Medical Alert dog!!  It was "an 18mth old ish German Pointer - which was found in emaciated condition, in the middle of a road in Cyprus.  The dog has burns on the edges of its ears where, in training, those have been caused by their a method of correction which is said to be normal in Cypress!  Of course there is a suggested donation.

I tried to explain that there was no way this dog would be suitable but ...... he's here!  Of course he is totally unsocialised and has all sorts of problems and will never make a Medical Alert dog! :(