I am new to this forum but looking for some advice. I was out with my dog this morning. A jogger came up behind me with a dog, a whippet. As we were in a narrow place with not much space to pass I shouted to him to hold back till I could put my dog on a lead. he just kept coming and as he passed my dog sort of reached out and grabbed at his dog. I then managed to get my dog on the lead. the jogger then started shouting and said my dog had ripped a big hole in his dog. there was a large hole in his dog just where the hind leg meets the stomach. It looked horrific but seems to just be the skin that was torn. the jogger was understandably upset and I was horrified that my dog could cause such a serious injury. She  normally avoids other dogs as she is very nervous of them.
I followed the jogger home and gave my name and address and have promised to pay the vet bill. the jogger said he will inform the police and get my dog put down. Can he do this? I will keep my dog on a lead now and muzzle her when out but it would break my heart if she had to be put down.

My advice to you would be to get on the phone to Trevor Cooper. I take it there were no witnesses to this event?

I am not an expert but I very much doubt your dog could be put down, since as you say, she has no history of attacking/injuring other dogs. Nor was she threatening in any way to the jogger. It sounds as though it is your word against the jogger as there were no witnesses and the only concrete evidence is the injury to the whippet for which you have admitted liability.

A good argument could be made that you were in a narrow space and the jogger and his dog chose not to heed your loud requests and warning to be allowed to put your dog on a lead. However, the level of injury your dog inflicted sounds severe and, this will be taken into account. I think you need to show that you are doing everything to rehabilitate your dog, possibly taking professional advice and so forth. However, the most important thing is to contact Trevor Cooper, who is an expert in dog law- he will give you advice how to proceed and what you need to do. Check your insurance to ensure you are covered for all relevant legal costs (http://www.doglaw.co.uk/).

Where abouts are you ?, as the laws are different in Scotland and England, Scottish laws are much stricter, and you are more likely to receive a visit from Police or Dog Warden if you are in Scotland.

>However, the level of injury your dog inflicted sounds severe

it looked awful but it happened in a fraction of a second. there was no fight. I really cant undferstand how so much damage could be caused by such a seemingly minor scuffle.

I am in Englad so that sounds more hopeful. I feel really terrible about it, but she is not an aggressive dog. She didn't fight or even really go for the dog just sort of grabbed at it as it ran past.

Sometimes skin can tear really easily, especially thin-skinned dogs like whippets, from even the smallest, most insignificant hole.

I had this happen to a whippet cross I once owned. One of my other dogs (A GSD) was running with her and they were playing but the GSD nipped the lurcher as she ran past in a playing way and caught her skin in the same place, she too ripped a huge hole in the lurchers side. like a triangular flap. It was just in play but shows how easy it is to tear the skin on a soft skinned dog.
I believe that there is nothing the police will do in England as it was a dog on dog scenario.(However I may be wrong) I think by accepting blame and paying the vet bills you have done all you can. The fault is yours in this matter as your dog was the aggressor. The future with your dog is now the important thing and as you have found out other dog owners are not always sensible so you have to accept that the risk of this happening again is too high to allow your dog to be off lead unless in an area that you have control of and can see well in advance and anticipate dangers and get your dog back on a lead. However much you think the other owner was wrong, you have the responsibilty to keep your dog under controle and if that means keeping him leashed unless you can be 100% sure no other dogs are around then that is what you must do.

The skin on dogs like whippets is very thin and I've seen it tear on lurchers on exactly the spot mention more than once.
After paying the vet bill making sure you always keep your dog on a lead in future is all you can do now, see if you can find an enclosed space you can have for yourself for off lead play, farmers field, riding school tennis courts etc.

Have you heard about the yellow dog scheme? http://www.yellowdoguk.co.uk/
I'm t sure how well known the scheme is yet so probably a lot of folk will think you have just to a nice ribbon on your dog but maybe you could try it.

I can only echo what others have said -the Dangerous Dogs Act only covers attacks on humans, not other dogs.  You could potentially be taken to court under the 1871 Dogs Act, but there is very little risk that your dog would be put to sleep. But please do call Trevor Cooper. Lesson learned as well -it's just not safe for a dog nervous of others to be allowed off lead where you may encounter other dogs. It could just as well have been your dog taking off in a panic and getting run over for instance -now it sounds like your dog was more or less trapped and therefore had no other choice but to lash out. I have one such dog myself (well with him it is people he is scared of, not other dogs), and he is only ever walked on a lead, and if offlead, in a private field where nobody else has access. Muzzling will help a lot because not only can you relax more, people will see the muzzle and actively avoid your dog.

I don't know were you live but if I was you I'd try to find a good trainer or behaviourist that could help you work with your dog to get over the fear -it can at least be greatly improved. If you're anywhere near Lincoln I know of classes for dogs that have problems with other dogs etc.

Did anyone witness this?
Legally I dont know where you stand but I would say the jogger was to blame for not taking your advice to wait until you put the dog on the lead. However, its probably just your word against his.
A friends lurcher suffered what looked like a horrific injury and was a very small simple cut that split so looked like somethinf out of a horror film. The two dogs were playing (a bit of rough and tumble) and one dogs tooth cut the lurchers tummy. Even at the vets the cut continued to split. Dont be too alarmed...the damage probably looks worse than it is.
Hopefully once the jogger has calmed down, got the dog sorted and realised you did the responsible thing by following them home, offering to pay and leaving details he will realise it was just one of those things.

What a nightmare for you.  I haven't more advice to give, but wanted you to know that a lot of us would feel sick at the thought of having a dog destroyed for such an unlucky event.  I do hope that you get help to advise which way to go to resolve this.

Please do come back and let us know how things go for you.  Good Luck.  :-)

thanks for the helpful advice. the jogger called this evening. The whippet has to stay in the vets over night and will need a lot of check-ups to ensure it is healing correctly but he is otherwise OK. The jogger didn't mention the police when he called and I didn't dare ask.
the bill is apparently £700 for today and obviously likely to rise with the follow up visits. My dog isn't insured but I am a member of the dogs trust which I believe gives 3rd party insurance. does anyone know if this is likely to be covered and how I go about claiming?

I guess you will need to call Dogs Trust and ask... I do hope you'll be covered :)

Wonder if they will try to wriggle out of it though, as insurance companies sometimes do? Thinking they might say something like, the jogger should have heeded your warning, so it's not completely your fault? Or, if you knew your dog was likely to do something (hence your warning), they won't cover it?

Just thinking aloud.... and also that call to Trevor Cooper might be a good idea before you contact DT.

I'd ask for copies of the vet bills, to make sure there telling the truth about the cost.

>the bill is apparently £700 for today and obviously likely to rise with the follow up visits

Why should it rise?  If they have performed surgery and the cost  is £700, I would expect that to include antibiotics.  You shouldn't have to pay the follow up check.  It is usually just a check that all is healing properly, and to take out stitches.  I agree that you want copies of the bills, you would be a mug to pay up without the invoice.

>I'd ask for copies of the vet bills, to make sure there telling the truth about the cost.

So would I - don't just hand over £100s on his say so. Yes he was upset about his dog, but he's made some pretty nasty threats, and even if he's not going to try to take it to the police, he might well decide to try to get more money out of you than is due. Make sure you see the vet bill before you pay.

Please as others have suggested ensure you see the vets bills. A couple where we used to live ended up paying over £3,000 towards someone else's vet bills, when in fact the total was closer to £30 !!!

You could potentially be taken to court under the 1871 Dogs Act, but there is very little risk that your dog would be put to sleep.

Doesn't the 1871 only relate to injuries done on private property whereas the DDA applies in public places?

It does get very confusing so like others have said, a call to Trevor Cooper could answer all your questions.  What a worry for you, I hope after the initial shock, the whippets owner sees this as an accident and not a deliberate attack on his dog.

The 1871 Act applies to public and private places. It is civil law rather than criminal and so requires a lower standard of proof. It is heard in a magistrates court who will decide if a dog is dangerous or not and sentencing is discretionary. Owners can be ordered to see a behaviourist, to muzzle their dog etc.. However, there is precedent for a dog being destroyed having attacked another dog, but this is extremely rare.

I'd still advise the owner to have a telephone chat with Trevor Cooper before they do anything else. They will also probably have an idea if the OP will be covered at the DT.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">So would I - don't just hand over £100s on his say so

Also, hand the money directly to the vet rather than give the jogger cash in his hand.

From your description it sounds as if this were an incident that was just as likely to have happened if your dog was ON lead as well as off.  Think of it this way - you "were in a narrow place with not much space to pass", your dog hears you shout a warning BUT a strange dog, and strange man came running fast toward you...

I've seen injuries such as that you describe when our family greyhound used to corner badly round the garden wall, and once when running alongside our other dog - so it can happen without much pressure.

I'm not saying this to mitigate your responsibility but perhaps to help you present the information when challenged.  I do also think that your jogger needs to understand that he could have prevented the situation had he waited, thought to check his dog or swapped sides.  Many of us position ourselves between our dogs and possible hazards and he had fair warning.  You could have been shouting to prevent your dog from chasing him, to avoid a different hazard up ahead, or a number of other reasons.  You presumably weren't to know your dog would bite (or you'd have been using a muzzle) but you knew - as most of us would, jogger included - that it was safer to have both dogs under control.  Your jogger isn't entirely blameless is he.

I know we've had conversations on here about the rights of joggers and cyclists before but anyone that does those activities with a dog as company MUST put the safety of their own dog first and if they hear a plea for help (e.g. please wait whilst I put my dog on a lead) then it's wise to listen - if not for their own safety but that of their dog.  Yes it's a nuisance to stop mid run but jogging along tow paths, or other narrow places does incur some inconvenience to their jogging pace - I'd guess they have to stop to pick up after their own dog so they'd have to find a way to pause for other things too!

Agree.

What needs to be born in mind though is that if one is pursued under the 1871 Act that since sentencing and interpretation of dangerous is discretionary much might depend on whether the magistrate is pro dog, pro jogger, anti dog and so on.

The question might be raised that if you know your dog to be potentially aggressive why was it not muzzled? If the dog is not aggressive why the need to warn the jogger? To this you may of course say, my dog has never been aggressive in her behaviour but she can get scared and stressed by getting to close to another dog.

The jogger may say that he could not hear you trying to warn him (he may be hard of hearing, for instance), or claim you did not try to warn him and are lying.

I have complete sympathy with the poster and in my own experience joggers can be an absolute menace. I only raise these points to show that in cases like this the devil is in the detail and what at first appears straight forward is not.

I also believe that even if your dog is on a lead and is not muzzled and is approached in the street by a person, or even another dog on lead, and attacks and causes serious damage, there may be a case to answer. The mere fact it is on lead is not necessarily a mitigating factor- everything hangs on the detail.

I was wondering if the jogger had headphones on and was listening to music so didn't hear you call out to him. If he did then maybe he too has to take some responsibility for the incident - running without due care and attention. I often see joggers with headphones on and do wonder how they can be totally aware of what is going on around them if they are unable to hear anything but the music they are listening to.

I have spoken to the dogs trust and they have told me how to go about claiming. Only slight problem is they have said not to admit liability but it might be by offering to pay then it can be seen that I am admitting liability. Problem is insurance and the ins and outs of it were the last thing on my mind yesterday morning.

everything happened very fast. He came up behind us. My dog was off the lead but I also had a youngster with me who was on the lead as he doesn't like joggers other dogs or cyclists. I was concentrating on trying to get him to a wider part of the path where I could get him back under control. I have also remembered that a cyclist had just whizzed past causing the youngster to act up so I couldn't give my other dog my undivided attention. this was why I shouted to the jogger to wait while I got to a wider part of the path so I could keep the youngster away from him and get my older dog on the lead. My older dog is not aggressive but is nervous of other dogs. She would prefer to get away from other dogs. I can only assume she felt threatened by the jogger and his dog coming towards her at speed.

There is only one short narrow section of the path on our normal walk and it seems  that everyone descends on that one section when we get to it. I modified my walk this morning and avoided that area totally. Both dogs were on the lead for all the walk.

Was the jogger's dog on or off lead?

Doesn't the 1871 only relate to injuries done on private property whereas the DDA applies in public places?

In addition to what already has been said, one of the main reasons for why the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was brought in was to get a means to punish the OWNER of a dog that had attacked a human. The 1871 Dogs Act cannot do that, it can only make orders on how to control the dog, in whatever way, but it cannot fine or jail the owner.

>Was the jogger's dog on or off lead?

he was on lead

Is his dog insured ?. If so surely his insurance will pay and you'd pay the excess plus maybe any expenses (travel etc). Be careful that he's not getting you to part with cash and also claiming under insurance. Would be better if you paid the vet bill direct.

When my dogs were attacked (many years ago now) I told the owner to contact the vet direct and pay what was due. I also gave his addr4ess to the vets and they sent him the bill.

Ant
Have you spoken to Trevor Cooper yet?