I haven't posted on here for a while but am here to let off a bit of steam and hopefully get some thoughts.

Latest Briard who is now 18 weeks old is at the point in his life where he is being very trying. I have been through it 3 times before with this particular breed but it never ceases to frustrate me when they/ he does this particular thing.

Coming in from the garden: He is doing pretty well with sitting, waiting, house training, coming when called (in the house) walking without pulling, socialising etc but the one thing that he is starting to do, is not come in when we have been out for toilet time. We go out, he does it when I say the key word. I then praise him and sometimes treat him. I stopped treating all of the time as he was coming over for the treat instead of going. He is better now he doesn't know when he will get a treat. He then proceeds to eat all kinds of nasty things like stones, moss from the roof that has fallen, branches...you name it he will eat it. If I tell him to "leave it" he will sometimes and others not. I then walk in to the house and he will stand and look at me considering his options. I call him a couple of times, he takes one look, turns his back on me and walks off. I NEVER chase him. I go inside, leave him for 5 or 10 minutes then open the door, call him and 9 times out of 10 he will then come bounding in, attacking my older girl as he does. This is a separate issue that I am dealing with. At this point I must say that I do play with him every other time. We have a big football that he kicks and I fetch...yes, really! We do this for a good 20 minutes but it doesn't make any difference to whether he feels like coming in.

I have had this happen with the others but they grew out of it, I didn't actually manage to stop them completely when they were pups. This time, I would like to understand how to stop it. I have used a long line on him but I feel that he needs to learn to come without the line. I am doing recall in the garden with him but he is just so distracted by the tree's, birds, sheep, planes, the odd car going by that anything is more interesting than me. He won't come for a treat or his favourite toy, been there done that *rolls eye* - I wave my arms, talk in a high pitch voice and he will interact and follow until he see's a dandelion. He currently has the attention span of a gnat and I feel that I haven't yet found the right button to press for his particular personality.

I know that he is going through a phase where he is going to rebel and get worse before he gets better, my breed are infamous for being stubborn and single minded yet they are so loyal and eager to please as well. It has to be said that he is much better with me than he is for my teenage daughter or OH. At least he will come in when I open the door, whereas with them he just stands there laughing at them.

Next week is our last week at pup classes. He is a nightmare at these classes as he gets so distracted by other people, he loves humans and the pups that he is a complete moron and unfortunately, the trainer has almost given up on him and now just pays attention to the better behaved pups. The class is a Gwen Bailey puppy school one with accredited instructor but I feel that all it has taught him to do is be more boisterous. Not been very helpful at all. He isn't allowed to run free with with the other pups until the very last minute as he is the biggest pup there and I think that the instructor doesn't want him to knock the others over, totally understandable but he gets so frustrated seeing all the pups enjoy free playtime that his eyes are bloodshot at the end from straining on his lead.

Anyway, I digress, my reluctance at keeping him on a long line in the garden is that he will never learn to come when called if he is restricted all of the time. Or I can use it for this particular phase, then in a few months time, when his head is in a better place, then start recall.

Thoughts please?

The thing that stands out to me is that he gets a treat in the GARDEN, as well as fun (chewing stuff), but when he is called in he gets nothing. For pups I always have a treat pot by the door so I can quickly get one out as a reward when they get to the stage of not wanting to come in. Never failed yet. :) He needs a good enough reason to WANT to come in, and just being told isn't enough for a puppy.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly, he does ALWAYS get a treat when he comes in and then another one when he goes into the room that I want him in, I.E. the kitchen when he is wet etc. But the treat doesn't entice him, even smoked turkey which is his all time favourite. He also gets a game with the big girl, he worships her. So there are enough enticements to come in. Last night it was dinner time and he knew, could smell and see his food as I took the bowl to the door, yet he still turned around and walked the other way! Bribery and corruption doesn't work with Briards, it never has, they soon cotton on to it and decide that it really isn't worth it. With my older ones they do it because they enjoy pleasing and being with you, the treat fades into insignificance after a while...

Maybe keeps the treats in a tin so you can rattle them at the door and make a big deal out of the other dogs getting one.  If he feels he's missing out it might just get him interested.  I wouldn't treat him if he just strolled in when he felt like it, only for a proper recall.

I don't think I can add anything as I am an interested reader having a 17 week old GR. I tend not to treat coming into the house and also haven't treated if she has 'performed' on cue, just plenty of fuss seems to be enough. My last GR was a devil to get to 'go' and get back in at the age of 14 years, so I started treating afterwards only for her to spend all evening going to the door to be let out, pretending to wee and then looking for a treat. Her pretend wee's, by the way, were not very good. I can see this pup doing the same thing as she is very bright. At 11 weeks she cottoned on that last thing at night I would take her out, then into the crate with a treat. So she started asking to go out, squeeze out a wee and shoot back into the crate an want her treat, so I had to change the routine.
She is now beginning to not want to come in again preferring to catch moths, dig, eat plants, eat sticks or anything else rather then go indoors. Yes food will bring her in for now, but I suspect I will be on a long bit of string again!

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> my reluctance at keeping him on a long line in the garden is that he will never learn to come when called if he is restricted all of the time. Or I can use it for this particular phase, then in a few months time, when his head is in a better place, then start recall.<br />

Bless him! Sounds like he is enjoying himself.

As to the long line, Don't see it as him never learning to come, see it as setting him up to succeed. If he has the option to ignore you he will. All he will learn is that he can please himself. Put a line on him and he has no option but to come when called. The time will come when you suddenly realise he's coming when called and you are not holding the line lol

My girl went threw a stage of doing that mainly last thing at night. Tried diffrent treats from dog chocolate to cheese to meats and not even a step closer. Also tryed toys with the same result she would stand there starring at me then running off down the garden again. At first just walking off a nd turning the light off was enough to get her in but that soon wore off after a few times.
Resorted to taking her down on an extensible lead to toilet every time just befor bed. Took a while but she then started doing it herself so she got her treat each time she chose to go in and started taking the lead off just out side the door so she walked threw it off lead and then took it off while still down the garden I'd get her to walk first then slip it off and be all happily like "come on, quickly, go go go" like a game of who can get there first.

Thanks all, very useful to get others opinion :-)

So, a long line seems to be the order of the day. I am happy to do this and to be honest, right now, it will help enormously, he is reaping the rewards of eating inedible matter in the bowel department...or should I say, I am! His dire rear is not really desirable for either of us and when I have used the line on him for a few days, his bowel habits are much improved and healthier!

He is such a sweetheart really but as I don't talk fluent dog and he doesn't talk human...YET, we are stuck communicating through sign language that must be so confusing in his mind. In my mind, it's like having a rebellious foreign language student to stay and you must make yourself understood but also understand what they are trying to tell you...simplistic maybe...but similar?

As for the pup class next week, I am wavering as to whether I will take him for the last one. I just feel that we are making small steps forward, yet after Monday night training, it takes until Wednesday until we are back where we started. We both come back on Monday night, disliking each other intensely yet this is the very opposite of what we are there to achieve!

Just to pick up on this bit... "He is a nightmare at these classes as he gets so distracted by other people, he loves humans and the pups that he is a complete moron and unfortunately, the trainer has almost given up on him and now just pays attention to the better behaved pups. The class is a Gwen Bailey puppy school one with accredited instructor but I feel that all it has taught him to do is be more boisterous. Not been very helpful at all. He isn't allowed to run free with with the other pups until the very last minute as he is the biggest pup there and I think that the instructor doesn't want him to knock the others over, totally understandable but he gets so frustrated seeing all the pups enjoy free playtime that his eyes are bloodshot at the end from straining on his lead."

I don't allow 'free playtime' at my dog training club. The dogs learn to meet each other in pairs, under control, have a polite sniff (if appropriate, all depends on each puppy's reaction to the other dog) and, more importantly, to respond quickly and happily to their owner's command to come away from the other dog. All done with titbits and lots of praise. The last thing I want to teach pups is that other dogs mean playtime as not all the dogs they will meet will want this and it often then leads to them completely ignoring their owners when they are out/off the lead etc. Mine learn to say hello nicely and then to move on again.

I do hope the trainer is not ignoring you because your dog's behaviour might be more challenging at the moment. If anything, you need MORE attention, not less. I would be thinking of complaining to Gwen Bailey if this really is the case. I'm also not sure that she would condone the free playing as people came to realise some time ago that it can be a recipe for disaster - boisterous dogs chasing less confident dogs, dogs being bullied/harassed, puppies having to hide/snap to get away from the others etc. The exuberant puppies learn to ignore their owners (as other dogs are far more fun) and the ones being bullied can start to think that their owners aren't doing a good job of protecting them so they either need to come out fighting or to start panicking as soon as they see other dogs.  

Why is he not allowed playtime in the garden?  My dogs go through phases of just wanting a bit of air or to sit and sniff the breeze, whatever, so I leave the back door open for them to come back in when they please.  I have a fully enclosed garden and a small dog house incase they want to stay out for a while but out the 'weather'.  I have also 'dog-proofed' the garden too so I know they can't get up to much without me.  This is also where they will get their bones which they will 'hide' for later so 90%of the time they WANT to stay out, it's to pinch each others stash of bones!lol

The weather is turning anyway, he won't want to stay out for long in the rain!

Yes marisa, I was also slightly surprised that the pups are allowed off lead time to bundle with each other and yes we REALLY ARE being politely sidelined. The first week, he was being used as an example, mainly I think because he was so different and quite gorgeous to look at. Once it was established that he wouldn't do as he was told, either by us or by the trainer, he very rapidly became ignored. The only comment that I have had was when he was being a bit of a challenge when walking on a loose lead and her comment was "the attention span of a sparrow" - this actually isn't true but what presses the Spaniels and Collies buttons at the class just don't press his. Briards are very eager to learn but not in the conventional way. I used to have  GSD's for many years and there is a huge difference in the training of GSD's and Briards although they are both herding breeds. The trainer herself keeps and works gun dogs, a world apart in temperament.

Cracar, he is allowed playtime in the garden. He is allowed to sit and take in the world and also we play football, I hide food so that he has to look for it, he eats his bones out there etc, he is not allowed unsupervised playtime though as he, like any good Briard pup has a nasty habit of eating things that are hazardous. We are lucky so far that he has only had diarrhoea and not surgery to remove rubble stones and berries. He will grow out of this but until he does, I will not allow him to be free rein. He loves the rain BTW! He has grown quite used to it living here in sunny Scotland. Dog proofing the garden has been done as much as is practical but we have a huge garden which is more like a field and he would doubtless find something to get into trouble with. Leaving the door open for him just wouldn't be practical because of the set up of the house and all of my other animals, I have free range Prairie dogs who could easily get out and that would be the end of them.

> I have free range Prairie dogs who could easily get out and that would be the end of them.

I didn't know you could keep those as pets. I LOVE them where do you get them from and how easy are they to keep?

Yes you can keep them as pets newyork, you don't need a wild animal licence to keep them, unlike some other exotics ;-)

There are a number of brokers that source them from breeders and wildlife parks and sell them but mine came from someone who couldn't keep them anymore, so they are rescues. I wouldn't really like to buy from these people as their ethics are less than moral and they treat all their animals like commodities but I won't go into anymore of my views on these people as they make my blood boil.

They are relatively easy to keep in a practical sense, their diet is very basic and has to be to keep them healthy. I take a lot of guidance from my friend who is a PD expert and am in touch regularly with a lovely lady in the USA who has a PHD in their care and gets involved with relocating them.

The more difficult aspect of their care is understanding their needs. They are still wild animals and need a knowledgable owner who will give them what they need. But in return for this you get a wonderfully bonded animal who will love and protect you forever. They are a cross between a 2 yr old child and a dog. Incredibly loving, thrive on stability and routine, prone to tantrums and have to be watched as they have no height or depth perception and are a bit like lemmings. They follow me all over the place and are normally attached to me. You get used to doing EVERYTHING with a PD attached to you... they get on with all of my animals and not bothered by any of them, although they feel the need to protect me if a stranger comes into the house:-D

Sorry for waffling on but as you may have noticed...I am well and truly hooked on them, I just love 'em ;-)

I've just googled them and realised that we saw them, or something very similar, running around one of the campsites we stayed at in Canada. Very cute we thought

Yes Jodi, they are native to Canada, Mexico and various states of the USA, they are hunted unfortunately, purely for fun! There are 5 different types but the species that are kept as pets as usually the black tailed PD's.

Hairypooch, where abouts in Scotland are you ?
Theres an excellent dog training school near Edinburgh in North Middelton [url=].    http://www.action4dogs.co.uk/  [/url], although it's a bit of a journey away for me up in Fife, I intend to take any new pup I get there, just to get a good start.
I gave up on puppy classes a long time ago as our local trainer used to let peoples puppies run amok, not what I was there for.

> my reluctance at keeping him on a long line in the garden is that he will never learn to come when called if he is restricted all of the time

Don't worry about this - as you rightly say, it is a bit of a phase and all pups go through it at some stage.

When you let him outside to toilet ie that's the main priority for going outside at that time, I'd attach him to a lead and wait whilst he does what you need him to.  Then lots of praise, a treat if you wish, then release for a play and a mooch.

However I'd suggest leaving a lightweight line attached that's long enough for you to quietly pick up without your pup noticing when you need to recall him.  I used the tape section from an old broken flexi lead (I just cut the handle/rewind contraption off).  Before you NEED him to come in, arm yourself with great treats and get hold of the end of his lead then recall him to you.  The lead is to stop him moving away from you rather than pulling him in so make sure that you gather up the loose line as he comes toward you.  Do not resort to leading him until he's in your perfect 'close' position.

I'd also recommend recalling him some distance from the back door - some dogs have a real issue about stepping over the boundary.  It's also worth mentioning that if you recall your dog from the threshold when it's dark, you will present a strange outline if you have a light behind you and it can make some pups (and older dogs) a bit suspicious even if they know it's you.  Finally, recall back indoors usually signals the end of playtime so practise a recall and release, or recall to dinner, or recall and play so that your pup doesn't associate coming in with more boring activities!

Oh and another thought - I have one who, at 3 yrs old, still occasionally has a funny moment about coming indoors.  I find he is often better at being sent indoors, rather than recalled to the door.  I really don't know why that is, but if I go out and tell him to get inside he trots in (in front of me) quite willingly.  Daft dog!!

Thanks for all the great advice!

I have started using the long line every time that I take him out and at the moment he can't get it through his head that we aren't actually going out for a walk lol so I have started using the other "front' door to take him out for walks so that he can associate which door means which action.

I will look into the other training class, tonight is the last one and I don't think that we will be going. I am prepared to travel if the class is worth it although he will now need juvenile classes (as in juvenile delinquent) as he is 18 weeks old.  I have noticed that he is starting to go through a fear stage where fairly innocuous things make him jump and he backs up so it is vital that we keep his socialising and training going. :-)