Since I joined this forum, I've read many fascinating and informative posts about breeding and the importance of only breeding from stock that is "good enough".

I have never bred a litter (though I've bred other livestock) and this is a purely "out of interest" question.

In your opinion, just how good does an animal have to be, to make them worth breeding from? Placed at champ shows, winning classes sometimes or consistently at champ shows, etc., etc.? I realise there are also working, obedience ad other types of performance award, I'm just not sure of the terminology.

I look forward to reading your opinions.

Hello Hants and welcome to the forum.

Re. suitability for breeding. My priorities are :

Type -meaning representative of the breed and
Temperament -which should also be representative of the breed ('fit for purpose') and
Health- meaning all health screening relative to the breed should be done and have satisfactory results.

All of the above should be objectively assessed and not necessarily based on success in the show ring. An experienced mentor is worth his/her weight in gold

Also, it's a difficult learning curve and a treacherous one. There is no exact science in breeding and I've made a lot of mistakes despite best efforts. Lots of 'hands on' hard slog and forward planning.
And being prepared to take the flack when things go wrong.

Good Luck !

This will be ingesting :) For me its lots of factors but the old adage of breed the best to the best and hope for the best has merit, the hard bit is working out what is "the best"  :) The animal could be tested at competitive  events and have demonstrated a good ( or if your lucky an outstanding )record of achievement however there may be super dogs that for one reason or another are either not able to attend many shows or who perhaps just don't enjoy the ring and so are left at home. Such animals may have fabulous pedigrees, great type and have good health test results so IMHO these dogs would also be worthy to be bred. 

So it's back to how to quantify what is "the best" :)  This is where learning about the breed and attending shows, working events and seminars etc pays dividends as does having good breed mentors. Only with deep knowledge of the breed, and assessment with a critical eye with no hint of sentimentality,  can you make judgements about what worthy to breed.

Does your dog have good 'type'? Have 'experts' in the breed assessed her ...either in the show ring, field or informally?

For one reason or another I bred from a virtually unshown bitch of good breeding who I knew was a great example of her breed. She produced champions from each of two litters and then I started to show her.
They don't have to be big winners .....just have the qualities to pass on to her offspring....
Type...temperament ...health....ability.

If you are a novice it is possible that you may misjudge these factors and asking a selection of impartial experts to give a true impression of your bitch is of great value.

For me they must be absolutely excellent. Impeccable temperament, assessed by other experts in the breed - very positively i might add! - in the show ring and ALSO in whatever venue the breed was originally bred for in as much as is possible. You may not be able to take your sighthound out hunting but chances are you can take them lure coursing for instance. All health tests must be clear and complete. In essence the dog must be an absolutely excellent specimen of their breed standard, in great health with a temperament to be proud of. Not every dog needs to be a parent.

Why should a dog have to be a show type to be bred from ? There are lots of excellent Border Collies(health tested etc)that don't fit the breed standard(The 2009 Supreme Champion definitely does not fit the breed standard as he is a tri colour with blue eyes prick eared & medium coated & having too much mottling on his head) these dogs shouldn't be bred from ??

Of the current available show BCs there are only a handful of dogs that have passed the working test & these would be the only available stud dogs ???

Sorry but health & ability come way ahead of show type for Border Collies

They don't have to be big winners .....just have the qualities to pass on to her offspring....
Type...temperament ...health....ability.

I have a bitch who has a couple of smaller faults. (She's still good enough to get the occasional BOB at shows, both open and championship, but has never won a CC. I hardly showed her at all until she turned veteran. Both her parents are Champions and she has two littermates with CCs.) She had two litters. Four of her pups (two from each litter) have between them so far won 3 CCs and 11 RCCs. Plus two are professional working dogs and another competes very successfully in both agility and obedience. So it didn't matter at all that the dam had the faults as I knew what was behind her etc. Indeed not one of her pups have the same faults as her.

Tommee.

The breed standard allows for Prick ears, various coat lengths, and the eye colour would be a fault, but the and mottling would be judges preference3 as all the standard says re colour is: COLOUR: Variety of colours permissible. White should never predominate.

The standard is deliberately fairly inclusive.

How is the eye colour inherited, or is the dog really a heavily marked tri merle rather than a true tri?

Tweed is a tri no merle at all behind him, eye colour is not linked to coat colour as I know a lot of black & whites with one or both blue eyes. Prick ears are routinely discarded in the ring along with medium or smooth coats. Only traditionally marked fluffy black & whites with tipped ears(not semi erect)Rough Collie/Sheltie ears win & even with bad movement & temperaments are preferred over any other type. The white should not predominate comes from the Australian breed standard which is based solely on their show lines. There are lots of predominately white ISDS BCs that are brilliant workers & have no trouble working any kind of stock.

The Australian exhibitors really want to change the breed standard to allow only tipped ears as they see them as the most attractive !!!

One well known BC CC judge wrote in a critique that the breed should only allow the tipped ears as prick & semi erect ears are not attractive !!!

Good job that ISDS dogs are bred for work & not for how attractive they are

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Good job that ISDS dogs are bred for work & not for how attractive they are

Good job the standard does not reflect judge bias.

Perhaps if more dogs of the alternative types were shown and their trailing owners took to judging the balance would be redressed.

It is perhaps human nature to assume the odd one out is wrong.

I have a breed that in it' country of origin has to work to achieve a show title, but also the working titles cannot be earned by dogs that are untypical and cannot gain an excellent at conformation shows.

This keeps show and working from diverging in type.

Also the majority of judges the breed get are hunters.

Once at Crufts the bitch ticket was won by a bitch that the handler had to stack & hold in place for the judge to go over her. When the dog judge attempted to handle her, she sank down to the floor when the judge requested the handler loosen his grip & the cheesewire choker, the dog judge couldn't examine her at all. The bitch judge went over the the dog ticket winner, who was a Sh Ch & shown free standing. When the judges discussed the BOB, neither would back down from their choice & so the referee & group judge was called for. Without laying hands on either dog or bitch she awarded the bitch the BOB :-O

In the group the bitch backed off the judge again, but with a fast bit of flash handling, she was strung up & held in position. She proceeded to win the Group :-O

Obviously the bitch judge & the group judge had not read the breed standard regarding temperament & character

Reply to Tommee

'health and ability come way ahead of show type for Border Collies'

Absolutely right  ! And this is how it should be. Sorry to say but this breed has been far too 'modified' to suit the predilections of the show ring and inbreeding to 'show type' has caused many of the health issues that currently affect the breed.

The thing I hate the most with bcs, is the way handlers make them keep their tails low, why does it matter of the tail rises? If it's not natural why bother??

A BC should carry it's tail low when working-watch any sheepdog trial-no tails up on the trialling field. My working BCs do not carry their tails up except when playing.

The same applies to Beardies yet there are dogs who can not only work sheep but also win at the highest level in the show ring

Im not saying any different but if its not natural and you have to scold the dog to get that affect, I find that uncomfortable to watch.

It's not just in BCs, many breeds are meant to carry their tails in a certain fashion in movement & in stance & many dogs have to be trained to do so or stacked & held in position(as per the Setters, Goldens, Afghans)a habit that has come over from the USA. Goldens were originally shown free standing like Labs, not any more stretched out & stacked & TBH I think they look awful

Yes I understand that, what I am saying though is and I've seen it many times, those dogs that don't keep them down I've often seen told off , checked pulled frightened Into keeping it low. That I do not like.

I've never been involved in showing dogs and have only been to a few dog shows. I was very impressed recently when I was watching the Goldens being shown at the recent Golden Retriever Club Centenary. There was a parade of champions and the dogs were posed to have photographs taken, on many occasions the handler would present the dog, say 'the word' and the dog would shift position and raise head and tail to the correct height and stand beautifully. Great to see.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">or stacked & held in position(as per the Setters, Goldens, Afghans)a habit that has come over from the USA. Goldens were originally shown free standing like Labs, not any more stretched out & stacked & TBH I think they look awful

Agree, it's is done in our breed in non Scandinavian countries and outside UK, and I hate it.  the breed is supposed to be Bold and energetic, and you loose that ready to go coiled spring with stacking.

I hope it doesn't become the norm here as in the past breed elders were very against the practice, as well as messing with the coat (it should only be groomed, never trimmed), and weather resistant texture so not bathed too often.

Hi Dyanne you never change do you :-)